Swarms, Splash Weapons, and other such things.

[DinosaursOnIce]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This is why I can't play a G-rated game, with Swarms and creatures with hardness.

TV-Edit swearing is hard.

"I have had it with these monkey-fighting swarms on this Monday-to-Friday adventure!"

+1

[blackbloodtroll]

I will have to bring this up, prior to sessions.

[kinevon]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Lol, well lamp oil will work for low level parties. Mid to high level parties should have access to spells and items that makes swarms more 'handle-able'.

Actually, it won't.

At one pound per flask of lamp oil, low level parties don't have the carrying capacity for sufficient amounts of lamp oil to do much. Once the party reaches the point where they have extradimensional carrying capacity, maybe, but by then other options are much better.

And, at low levels, even if they, somehow, have sufficient lamp oil to make a difference, they'll be dead due to action economy anyhow.

Move action to get flask of oil.
Full round action to prepare it as a Molotov cocktail.
Standard action to throw said Molotov cocktail, which, according to you anyway, won't do anything but one point of splash damage anyhow.

And, in the meantime, the swarm has had three rounds of attacks against low hit point targets. Not to mention any delays added in due to failed distraction saves....

On the other hand, consider a single Alchemist's Fire.

Move action to draw.
Standard action to throw.
Hit for 1d6 damage, average 3.5, times 1.5 for swarm vulnerability, to 5 points on average.
Swarm is still alive.
Round two, the alchemist's fire burns for another 1d6 damage, for 3.5 on average.
Depending on whether it could still be considered to be an area effect, it would do from 3-5 points of damage on average, which might be enough for that CR1 swarm.

Okay, using oil poured on the ground:
Move action to get flask of oil
Standard action (since it isn't specified) to pour it out, with the assumption that the surface you pour it on qualifies as smooth (see oil)
Full round action (minimum) to light the oil on the smooth surface using flint and steel, otherwise, for a higher cost, standard action to light using a tindertwig.
Burning oil then does 1d3 damage for 2 rounds, so average 2 points, 3 to a swarm, for 2 rounds, maximum 8 points to a swarm.
Turns out that it will take another flask of oil, and another round, minimum, to kill that CR1 swarm. Assuming it stays in the area of the fire. As compared to Alchemist's Fire, that stays on the swarm, instead...

Note that the flint and steel and tindertwig lists do not include the actions to get the flint and steel or tindertwig out (Move), nor light the tindertwig (Move)

So, overall, allowing only spread lamp oil (on a smooth surface) or splash-only damage from a splash weapon (ooo, splash weapon) is going to kill the average low-level party, not even counting the situational costs for buying lamp oil, and tindertwigs, when the party has low funds, like an all-new set of PCs...

[_Ozy_]

Er, I've been in parties that have successfully used lamp oil.

Even the weakest party members can carry a flask or 2, with the stronger ones easily able to carry ~10. Swarms move slowly, so you can usually use tactical movement to give you enough space and time to lay out some oil filled squares in their path.

Then you light them up and retreat. Repeat as needed. You don't need a full round action, just a lit torch or a caster with a spark cantrip. Furthermore, the lamp oil does 1d3 per square, so light up two squares and the CR1 swarm will likely be dead in 2 rounds.

Sure, alchemist fire might work better, but lamp oil costs 1sp per flask, so it works a hell of a lot better for 'low funds' than any other splash weapon. Alchemist's fire costs 200 times more than that, acid flasks cost 100 times more.

Edited to add: you can coordinate the pouring and lighting in the party, so it only takes 1 round to set up a burning square.

[bigrig107]

Spark wrote:

You can make an unattended Fine flammable object catch on fire.

Not sure you're using spark right.

Anyway, a spider swarm (CR 1), has 9 HP.

Your oil does d3, which is an average of two.
So, with average rolls, and two flasks of oil, it might be dead in two rounds (8 hp damage).

I honestly see absolutely no need whatsoever to nerf splash weapons, in their intended use.

They are intended to defeat swarms in low-level parties without access to plentiful aoe magic.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Yeah, I think we can safely call this settled. We're just nitpicking scraps of hyperbole at this point.

[_Ozy_]

bigrig107 wrote:

Spark wrote:

You can make an unattended Fine flammable object catch on fire.

Not sure you're using spark right.

Anyway, a spider swarm (CR 1), has 9 HP.

Your oil does d3, which is an average of two.
So, with average rolls, and two flasks of oil, it might be dead in two rounds (8 hp damage).

I honestly see absolutely no need whatsoever to nerf splash weapons, in their intended use.

They are intended to defeat swarms in low-level parties without access to plentiful aoe magic.

Yeah, 2 rounds and 2 sp cost. How much did you spend on your alchemist fire?

You can use spark with any tinder item that the person drops into the oil that he spreads on a square, piece of cloth, cotton whatever.

Or, like I said, use an already lit torch. It takes a little bit of tactical coordination, but it's really not that difficult, and I would rather be burning through 1sp flasks of lamp oil than 20gp flasks of alchemist fire at low levels. Unless you're DM is a lot more generous than mine that is.

[kinevon]

_Ozy_ wrote:

bigrig107 wrote:

Spark wrote:

You can make an unattended Fine flammable object catch on fire.

Not sure you're using spark right.

Anyway, a spider swarm (CR 1), has 9 HP.

Your oil does d3, which is an average of two.
So, with average rolls, and two flasks of oil, it might be dead in two rounds (8 hp damage).

I honestly see absolutely no need whatsoever to nerf splash weapons, in their intended use.

They are intended to defeat swarms in low-level parties without access to plentiful aoe magic.

Yeah, 2 rounds and 2 sp cost. How much did you spend on your alchemist fire?

You can use spark with any tinder item that the person drops into the oil that he spreads on a square, piece of cloth, cotton whatever.

Or, like I said, use an already lit torch. It takes a little bit of tactical coordination, but it's really not that difficult, and I would rather be burning through 1sp flasks of lamp oil than 20gp flasks of alchemist fire at low levels. Unless you're DM is a lot more generous than mine that is.

And how much for the extra healing needed, since the swarm is around longer doing damage?

Not to mention that swarms, handled that way, is, how do you say it? Unfun.

[blackbloodtroll]

I, personally, will run it, as if they are susceptible to direct hit damage.

[Nefreet]

I think most sane GMs do.

(not saying that you're sane, of course, but that, in this instance, you happen to share a common behavior with that of a person who could be judged as sane by a professional psychiatrist)

[Kobold Catgirl]

It's too late, Nefreet. You've insulted him. Back away. Back away! S###, someone get the rope! Run, Nefreet! RUN!

[Gullyble Dwarf - Lvl 7 DM]

WHOAH...Nefreet's got himself into a Wayne Brady kind o situation.

(kicks out lazy boy and picks up popcorn)

[Nefreet]

Shoot.

Knew I should have included a cute emoticon at the end.

[Kobold Catgirl]

ಠ‿ಠ

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, to be deeply honest, and personal, I have been found by the state, to have a psychiatric disability, and some level of emotional disturbance.

Quite hilarious though, I have been noted as one of the sanest amongst my friends, and family, whom many of them have told me, they consider me to be their "emotional rock", for being calm, collected, and even-handed in my approach to stressful situations.

So, when I DM, I might not technically be a "sane" DM, but I have been told, with what very little I have DM'd, that I am a fair, and fun DM.

I feel that's the most important things a DM can be; Fair, and Fun.

Besides, sane DMs are boring.