Issue:
As a player and GM, I've always found that the only thing that takes more time than designing a build for a character is adding class skills. Calculating on a point-by-point basis, cross-referencing at attribute changes, and various 'fiddly bits' with class-specific skills is tedious, especially in situations or builds where maximum skill ranks are prerequisites and not just options.
This thread is a thought experiment and a suggestion thread.
Let's eliminate skill points from the game.
Alternative: The Primary/Secondary Skill System
The alternative to this is quite simple:
For every skill point (Intelligence included) the class grants the character, choose one skill. Mark the skills chosen. You gain +1 to the skill check for every class level you have, atop the Class Skill and Attribute bonuses, and count as if they have allotted points equal to the class level. The skills are called 'Primary Skills'
All other skills gain 1/2 the bonus, and count as if they have allotted points equal to half class level. The skills are called 'Secondary Skills'.
Example
Fred Fighter (with 13 Intelligence) has 2 + Intelligence skill points. He chooses Swim, Ride, and Intimidate as Primary Skills.
At Fighter 3, he gains a +3 skill bonus to all checks with the respective skills, atop the +3 for (some) class skills, and attribute boosts. The Fighter gains +1 to all secondary skills.
Adapting Changes:
Feats, abilities, classes, and all prerequisites that specify a specific number of skill points move to adapt the changes:
The Intelligent Example feat requires 4 ranks in Knowledge (Nature). If a Ranger chose Knowledge (Nature) as a primary skill, they can gain the feat at level 4. Otherwise, they need to be level 8.
Problems with the Rankless System:
A: Metagame/Immersion: So far the biggest issue. Throughout the course of a campaign, a character may become more adept at diplomacy or stealth. A character who chose Bluff instead of Stealth may find themselves suffering until level 20 for the choices they made at level 1.
B: Point-dependent Skills: The greatest example here is Linguistics. For every point, one gains a language. Under this system, there will be no in-built way to learn languages other than by the Retraining System of learning languages by spending time on them.
C: Cross-Class: Ah--here we are. The system works fine as long as one remains to one class. What if one multiclasses? Will one have to refer to each skill as primary to one class and be dependent on levels in it? May someone take a dip in Bard or Rogue to gain an instant bonus equal to their level on about 8+ skills?
Solutions to the above issues:
Issue A: Add more ways to choose Primary Skills. This also happens to solve outstanding issues as the having-too-little skill ranks for a lot of classes.
A plethora of traits, feats, and alternative class abilities elevate secondary skills to primary skills.
Issue B: I prefer for point-based abilities to be rolled under the existing mechanics of traits and feats. Although Linguistics seems to be the biggest offender, I am curious of others.
Issue C: The system works fine until multiclassing enters. I am of the following opinion (benevolent and ultra-lenient as it seems):
Add all points from classes and Intelligence to determine primary classes. A Fighter/Rogue multiclass gains 10+Intelligence Primary skills. This character may not need for any skills, as it covers nearly half base skills.
Benefits:
As a mechanic, it eases leveling, and opens more avenues for gaining skills. Leveling up becomes more rewarding to characters, while easier to build and play for GMs.
Under Character Sheets, a character may eliminate the tedious skill/skill point entry, as seen under the class (Rogue 2; 8 + Int) below:
Example wrote: Skills Acrobatics +9 (2), Appraise +7, Bluff +7 (+9 to lie; 2), Climb +4 (1), Craft +8 (Carpentry; 2), Diplomacy +6 (+8 to convince; 1), Disable Device +9 (2), Disguise +7 (2), Escape Artist +8 (1), Heal +6 (1), Intimidate +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4 (Int), Knowledge (local) +9 (2), Linguistics +8 (1), Perception +6 (2), Perform +6 (Wind Instruments; 1), Perform (Acting) +6 (1), Profession +4, Sense Motive +6 (2), Sleight of Hand +10 (1), Spellcraft +5 (1), Stealth +10 (1), Survival +4 (+8 in Urban and underground), Swim +4 (1), and Use Magic Device +6 (1) And replace with the following:
Example wrote: Skills: Primary (12): Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha;Int for lying), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magical Device (Cha). Disadvantages:
The system may not be exactly friendly with micromanaging customization. It does encourage (as do I) the development of ways to add primary skills to allow for more skill branching. It also removes several mechanics dependent on the old system.
TL;DR: All skills gain 1/2 level bonus, above class skills and attribute bonuses.
For every skill point one would normally gain from a class, they can promote the class (only class skills) skills to a primary skill, adding their full level bonus as a bonus instead.
Abilities dependent on ranks count half level (or full level) instead.
Thoughts, comments, and discussion are appreciated.
It looks like you put time and thought into this, and it does look like a well-functioning system, but honestly this is very similar to 4E's skill system and it's one of the things I absolutely detested about that fetid stank of a system.
I sometimes will put only a rank or two into skills in order to get small bonuses, and sometimes I go for a level or two without actually raising the levels of already-trained skills because I want to put ranks into other skills in order to gain near-full-ranks in those.
The skill system as of now is simple; I'm not sure I understand your annoyance.
You gain skill points based on your class, you spend those to gain Ranks in Skills on a 1:1 basis, and anything that's a Class Skill from a Class you have is granted a flat +3 Bonus.
The current skill system is simple, and a lot more straightforward and intuitive than the skill system that was in place in 3.5 (where skill points might add ranks in a 2:1 rate until you got those Skills as Class Skills).
Everything else you described as an annoyance - adjusting totals when Abilities change, conditional modifiers, bonuses from Feats, etc. - is ALSO the case for HP, Attacks & Damage, Armor Class, Saves.
Frankly, I'd just say "get over it," don't try and rewrite a system that'd have far-reaching implecations and unforseen effects on things like Archetypes abilities, Retraining, etc., and realize that that's what you have a Character Sheet for.
There was an optional skill system in 3.5 that could be easily adapted to PF: instead of applying skill points, you simply gain a +1 to each of your class skills per level you have, but you do not get a +3 training bonus.
Ciaran Barnes wrote: There was an optional skill system in 3.5 that could be easily adapted to PF: instead of applying skill points, you simply gain a +1 to each of your class skills per level you have, but you do not get a +3 training bonus. Was it under Arcana Unearthed or another variant rulebook?
Quote: I sometimes will put only a rank or two into skills in order to get small bonuses, and sometimes I go for a level or two without actually raising the levels of already-trained skills because I want to put ranks into other skills in order to gain near-full-ranks in those. I do this a lot, too. The skill system is pretty easy to understand, at least for me. I do a simple math calculation (class skill ranks + intelligence modifier + 1 more if I'm human) and have <X> many skill points to spend. Okay, good, hurrah. That's it. So, I can spend a few points on skills I want the initial boost in, and then focus on others later. I usually dedicate 1-2 points per level on getting a little bit of everything.
Under this system that's not entirely a possibility. I don't like it.
P.S. I, myself, don't hate 4th Edition at all, but the skill system in that game felt entirely underwhelming.
@Inlaa & CHB:
Regarding small and passive boosts: all secondary skills do gain a bonus equal to 1/2 level.
A 6th level Rogue will have +3 to Heal, +6 to Perform (Waltz), and +9 to Disable Device (if a Primary skill) off the bat, not counting attributes, feats, or traits.
Under the system, one's bonuses already scale to get a little bit of everything.
Your concern is already addressed and taken to consideration.
Please consider that when it comes to designing higher-level characters or custom monsters, skills take a time to customize.
It's easiest for a GM to throw Skill Points to maximum ranks in character skills (a 3rd Rogue gains 3 ranks in each important skill) to ease creation and not bog themselves down in mundane tweaking.
But as-is, we can do better than that.
I think your idea could be fantastic as a GM for NPCs you have to make up. However for PC's I think it is less of a problem.
IMO the current skill system gives players a way to really customize their character and put thought into who they are. Choosing your skills at the first level and calling that good seems to set you on a specific path that might need to change down the road. Furthermore having to reallocate a resource such as feats or traits into improving/changing skills takes away overall.
To restate though, I think for quick NPC generation its not a bad way to go at all and might use something like it for my NPCs myself.
Arrius wrote: Ciaran Barnes wrote: There was an optional skill system in 3.5 that could be easily adapted to PF: instead of applying skill points, you simply gain a +1 to each of your class skills per level you have, but you do not get a +3 training bonus. Was it under Arcana Unearthed or another variant rulebook? Close - Unearthed Arcana.
Arrius wrote:
B: Point-dependent Skills: The greatest example here is Linguistics. For every point, one gains a language. Under this system, there will be no in-built way to learn languages other than by the Retraining System of learning languages by spending time on them.
This is a problem only in Linguistics and Performance adding in per rank specializations (individual languages or instruments/performance types) and requiring a new way of handling that. Many (myself included) would see breaking this link of "I get a skill rank I learn a new language" as a feature rather than a problem. The retraining rules appear adequate for languages and could be adapted to performance. Traits would also be good here. I'm hesitant on feats for this as there they could be seen as burned feats that could be better spent on something less situational and with more mechanical impact (especially in combat).
How about:
Primary - Bonus equal to Character Level + 3
Secondary - Bonus equal to Character Level
Tertiary - Bonus equal to half Character Level
Other - No Bonus
You gain a number of Primary skills per your class rank value (so 8 for Rogue, etc)
You gain a number of Secondary skill per half your class rank value (so 4 for Rogue, etc)
All other skills on your class skill list are Tertiary
All other skills are Other
Each new level you may promote a single skill a single tier
@Ciaran Barnes:
You're right...Ouch. It is almost identical.
@Freesword:
I would normally suggest four free languages if you choose Linguistics as a primary skill--or otherwise leave bonus languages according to retraining mechanics and GM approval (depending on how much time spent).
We might allow to promote a skill to primary by level growth.
@Rainzax:
I thought of adding tertiary skills, but preferred to keep the Primary/Secondary split. I'd discourage devaluing intelligence, though.
But it's a good idea to add more skills by leveling. Perhaps 1 skill/2 levels?
I say do what you want. Players will make a case if they feel like it.
It's a good system. Makes leveling up quicker, and also makes remembering your bonuses faster. Small differences are fiddly and in the long run don't matter; you either autosucceed on what you specc in, or you autofail since you don't have enough points.
You may want to:
-add a feat that adds 1 more primary skill, possible to take multiple times
-an option to "retrain" a secondary into a primary later as you level.
I'd personally:
-remove the INT bonus
-give every class about 6-10 skill points (everybody gets the same. Rogues get an ability like Bard's versatile performance, or the feat above as a bonus/talent option/both).
-on multiclass, just let the player switch a class skill that's trained from his old class to a class skill that's trained in his new class, if he wants to.
It's a shame that:
-this does not fix the value of some skills being capped. The skill system itself is kinda terrible because skills are simply not worth the same despite being "bought" by the same skill points.
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