Wielding Thrown Weapons


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

When using a weapon as a thrown weapon, are you considered wielding the weapon when it is thrown?

This is relevent to feats such as:

Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, and Weapon Versitility.

Side-Along question: How do the above feats interact with thrown weapons?

Grand Lodge

I'm going to call it that those feats do not interact with thrown weapons in their normal usage as missiles.


I think the simple answer is that most thrown weapons are also melee weapons when you use them as such. You can wield a spear, for example, as a melee weapon. You can also throw it as a ranged weapon.

Applying melee and/or ranged feats to such a weapon only apply to the correct weapon type at the moment. For an easy example, Point Blank Shot gives you +1 to hit and damage with ranged weapons, but this would not apply to your spear while you wield it as a melee weapon - however, as soon as you throw it at an eligible target you can apply the feat.

The same logic should apply to all feats that specify a type (melee or ranged) - you weapon is only one of those at any specific instant.


'Wielding' is one of those terms that causes endless problems... if I remember right, one of the developers made some post about what it meant a while ago... and accidentally made using a weapon as an arcane focus completely impossible. But if you're in the process of actually making an attack by throwing a weapon, then I think it would be a little absurd to say 'you're no longer wielding it', until the attack is actually resolved.

As far as Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace goes there's nothing to suggest that it wouldn't work as normal when throwing, assuming that you're throwing a rapier or a one-handed slashing weapon. Just because you can use Weapon Versatility to change the damage type of a spear doesn't mean you can choose 'spear' for Slashing Grace in the first place. I guess Martial Versatility might work.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Fencing Grace applies only to rapiers. Rapiers are not thrown or ranged weapons, unless you're using the rules for throwing things that aren't intended to be thrown.

Rules Quote:
It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.
.

Grand Lodge

Not to sound selfish, but I would love some sort of text, or rule call, or FAQ that would suggest what most of you are saying.

The biggest issue I am seeing is that none of the feats I listed specify anything about melee. Not even their prereqs do (an interesting aspect of Weapon Finesse, to be sure).

So I guess it comes down to this: Are the feats Weapon Finesse, Weapon Versitility, and Slashing Grace all melee only feats, even though they say nothing about melee at all?


Weapon Finesse would be melee only as ranged attacks already use Dex. Is there a one handed slashing weapon that is also a thrown weapon?


chakrams and throwing axes come to mind


Also, anything one handed slashing/rapier with the throwing enchant.

Liberty's Edge

EvilMinion wrote:
chakrams and throwing axes come to mind

Chakrams are ranged weapons you can make melee attacks with. Throwing axe is a light weapon. So neither of those are one handed slashing weapons, technically.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

Not to sound selfish, but I would love some sort of text, or rule call, or FAQ that would suggest what most of you are saying.

The biggest issue I am seeing is that none of the feats I listed specify anything about melee. Not even their prereqs do (an interesting aspect of Weapon Finesse, to be sure).

So I guess it comes down to this: Are the feats Weapon Finesse, Weapon Versitility, and Slashing Grace all melee only feats, even though they say nothing about melee at all?

There is no text, FAQ, or rule call. I've tried to get it FAQ'd twice now, and asked Mark Seifter his opinion as well, but the general consensus is that the definition of wield is too inconsistent at this point in the game to be properly FAQ'd. No matter which way you FAQ a HUGE amount of things are going to get f%$+ed up.

However, "wielding" has as its most common usage in the rules "actively using" as far as weapons are concerned.

As long as there is no restriction on melee or ranged, then throwing it is still wielding it.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
So I guess it comes down to this: Are the feats Weapon Finesse, Weapon Versitility, and Slashing Grace all melee only feats, even though they say nothing about melee at all?

There's nothing to imply that they're only melee; they just won't work with any weapons that are designed for throwing, so that your only option - at least without Martial Versatility - is to do it with a weapon you get a -4 attack with for throwing.

Technically the feat Throw Anything *should* make it so that you can throw any weapon without the -4 penalty, but the rules are kind of blurry. If a GM allows it, then for a few feats you could be throwing whole clutches of battle axes like a madman if you wanted. Hmmm...


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Weapon Finesse would be melee only as ranged attacks already use Dex. Is there a one handed slashing weapon that is also a thrown weapon?

Sibat: martial one handed weapon. Damage P or S. Range 10 ft.


graystone wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Weapon Finesse would be melee only as ranged attacks already use Dex. Is there a one handed slashing weapon that is also a thrown weapon?
Sibat: martial one handed weapon. Damage P or S. Range 10 ft.
Quote:

Slashing Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

I don't see anything that would stop you from adding your Dex to damage when throwing the weapon.

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