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So something came up at my table last night regarding when and what order (or if there's even an "order") in which the effects of a Tanglefoot Bag occurs.
I was under the impression that there was an order to things (even though I understand that usually things of this nature happen simultaneously).
My interpretation:
If the tanglefoot bag hits, the creature is entangled. It must then make the DC 15 reflex save. Because it's entangled the creature is taking the penalties for being entangled to their reflex save.
GM's interpretation:
The tanglefoot bag hits and the character immediately makes the reflex save as they are being entangled. Because the two things are simultaneous, the target is not yet taking the penalties for being entangled.
Here's the text from tanglefoot bag I think seems to suggest my interpretation is correct, but since it wasn't really a big deal and I didn't want to slow down the table I figured I would just get clarification here rather than at the table:
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move.
All emphasis mine above.
Per the strictest reading of the syntax of RAW, they make the save under the effects of the entangled condition. Especially the phrase "An entangled creature... must make a DC 15 Reflex save..." (i.e. it's already entangled when making the save) and the slightly more flavor oriented "entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient." Both things seem to strongly suggest that the gluing to the floor bit happens as the goo hardens, which is explicitly stated to happen shortly after the initial successful hit and entanglement.
The reflex save is not to stop the entanglement. That is automatic. The save is to resist being glued to the floor. The penalty from entanglement applies to that save.
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I never considered this fact, but the fact that the entangled condition increases the DC 17 - the same the DC as the Strength check, which seems to fit a bit too well.
That said, I tend to use a lot ob tangleshot arrows, and the englangled condition is already pretty damn effective/annoying for the GM (especially since, unless you are already unterwater, the only things that seems to be able to remove the condition are
Price 20 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
This bubbling purple gel eats through adhesives. Each vial can cover a single 5-foot square. It destroys most normal adhesives (such as tar, tree sap, or glue) in a single round but takes 1d4+1 rounds to deal with more powerful adhesives (alchemical glue, tanglefoot bags, spider webbing, and so on). It has no affect on fully magical adhesives, such as sovereign glue.
Create: Craft (alchemy) DC 20
and
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rdSlot —; Price 50 gp; Weight —
Description
This substance has the unique property of being able to dissolve sovereign glue, tanglefoot bags, and all other adhesives. Applying the solvent is a standard action.Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, acid arrow; Cost 25 gp
As a GM (even in PFS frankly) I would allow alternative options like teleporting, jumping in a pool of lava or moving through the earth to remove it too.
Alchemical solvent doesn't seem that good at the job. You take 1 round to apply it and it needs 1d4+1 rounds to free you vs. a duration of 2d4 rounds of the tanglefoot bag. So in effect 1d4+2 (including the round it is applied) vs. 2d4 rounds.
Most of the time you could spend the action needed to apply it for something better.
But your point is right, those seem to be the only two options to get rid of the entangled condition.
As to teleporting: Why should that remove the entangled condition? You keep your shoes, your trousers etc, you keep the glue, too.
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Yeah the alchemical solvement isn't great, but might be a reasonable solution when someone else applies it to you.
You can teleport out of your chains and handcuffs, I would argue, that giving the players the benefit of the doubt, would allow them to leave behind the tangefoot stuff too. Of course we are already talking about serious magic against a cheap alchemical item....
Yeah the alchemical solvement isn't great, but might be a reasonable solution when someone else applies it to you.
You can teleport out of your chains and handcuffs, I would argue, that giving the players the benefit of the doubt, would allow them to leave behind the tangefoot stuff too. Of course we are already talking about serious magic against a cheap alchemical item....
That stuff is attached to you. I understand you want to help the player out, but it is not really working within the rules. As for teleporting out of handcuffs, I don't know about that either, anymore than you can teleport out of your pants.
Never really thought about it - although I think I'll continue to do as I have in the past.
Let the player make the save prior to the debuff - mostly because it just saves time at the table and they can get the penalties figured when I move to the next player/monsters turn.
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That stuff is attached to you. I understand you want to help the player out, but it is not really working within the rules. As for teleporting out of handcuffs, I don't know about that either, anymore than you can teleport out of your pants.Yeah the alchemical solvement isn't great, but might be a reasonable solution when someone else applies it to you.
You can teleport out of your chains and handcuffs, I would argue, that giving the players the benefit of the doubt, would allow them to leave behind the tangefoot stuff too. Of course we are already talking about serious magic against a cheap alchemical item....
I actually remembered the source of that thing, a large (or huge?) marilith in a certain AP, has it in her tactics, that when the teleports aways, she has to leave her breastplate behind (a large breastplate is heaver than the weight limit on demon teleportation allows.
Since for some spells and circumstances clothing counts as having a n armor bonus of +0 I see no good reason to allow the fighter to leave his plate armor behind.Or to follow this line of reasoning, you can teleport out of the clutches of a grapplying monsters, let's say giant frog, so why should you not be able to teleport out of a spiders web or out of a normal (weapon) net?
I can see a certain amount of table variation here, but it is worth mentioning, that this is still pretty much using cannons to shot at sparrows.
Oh and the tangelshot bag doesn't work underwater, so you could argue that sufficient water could block or remove it, but even that is a grey are.
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The reflex save is not to stop the entanglement. That is automatic. The save is to resist being glued to the floor. The penalty from entanglement applies to that save.
I posted this question elsewhere and the same misunderstanding came up. I didn't mean to imply I thought there was a reflex to avoid the entanglement. Sorry about that! But thank you for answering my question about the glued-to-the-floor bit. :)
I probably should have phrased this bit differently (changes bolded):
My interpretation:
If the tanglefoot bag hits, the creature is entangled. It must then make the DC 15 reflex save to avoid being glued to the ground. Because it's already entangled the creature is taking the penalties for being entangled to their reflex save.
I never considered this fact, but the fact that the entangled condition increases the DC 17 - the same the DC as the Strength check, which seems to fit a bit too well.
That said, I tend to use a lot ob tangleshot arrows, and the englangled condition is already pretty damn effective/annoying for the GM
Tangleshot is awesome against flying targets, since the tanglefoot bag requires flying characters to make a fly check.
For extra fun, my archer fires tangleshot arrows from a Distracting bow. Mr. caster, please make me a concentration at +5 to the DC.
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I never considered this fact, but the fact that the entangled condition increases the DC 17 - the same the DC as the Strength check, which seems to fit a bit too well.
That said, I tend to use a lot ob tangleshot arrows, and the englangled condition is already pretty damn effective/annoying for the GM
Tangleshot is awesome against flying targets, since the tanglefoot bag requires flying characters to make a fly check.
For extra fun, my archer fires tangleshot arrows from a Distracting bow. Mr. caster, please make me a concentration at +5 to the DC.
I am using Slow + Alchemical Power Components :)
So really, they're at -3 on the save. I can't wait to knock a flier out of the sky at some point. Should be hilarious.
That stuff is attached to you. I understand you want to help the player out, but it is not really working within the rules. As for teleporting out of handcuffs, I don't know about that either, anymore than you can teleport out of your pants.Yeah the alchemical solvement isn't great, but might be a reasonable solution when someone else applies it to you.
You can teleport out of your chains and handcuffs, I would argue, that giving the players the benefit of the doubt, would allow them to leave behind the tangefoot stuff too. Of course we are already talking about serious magic against a cheap alchemical item....
I actually remembered the source of that thing, a large (or huge?) marilith in a certain AP, has it in her tactics, that when the teleports aways, she has to leave her breastplate behind (a large breastplate is heaver than the weight limit on demon teleportation allows.
Since for some spells and circumstances clothing counts as having a n armor bonus of +0 I see no good reason to allow the fighter to leave his plate armor behind.Or to follow this line of reasoning, you can teleport out of the clutches of a grapplying monsters, let's say giant frog, so why should you not be able to teleport out of a spiders web or out of a normal (weapon) net?
I can see a certain amount of table variation here, but it is worth mentioning, that this is still pretty much using cannons to shot at sparrows.
Oh and the tangelshot bag doesn't work underwater, so you could argue that sufficient water could block or remove it, but even that is a grey are.
What AP is this? If you remember let me know. That weight limit is on carried things, not things she is wearing, so the author messed the rules up if they did it that way, twice. I don't have time now to fine it, but some multiclasses outsider would lose a lot of gear if that was the rules, and I am sure there is at least one specced out officially.
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Quick aside: The RAI is probably that it doesn't work underwater because the goo initially comes out...well, gooey. It hardens quickly though. The hardening process would not happen under water, but once you're entangled the goo has cured and water will not dissolve it. This is actually pretty realistic, tbh.
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What AP is this? If you remember let me know. That weight limit is on carried things, not things she is wearing, so the author messed the rules up if they did it that way, twice. I don't have time now to fine it, but some multiclasses outsider would lose a lot of gear if that was the rules, and I am sure there is at least one specced out officially.That stuff is attached to you. I understand you want to help the player out, but it is not really working within the rules. As for teleporting out of handcuffs, I don't know about that either, anymore than you can teleport out of your pants.Yeah the alchemical solvement isn't great, but might be a reasonable solution when someone else applies it to you.
You can teleport out of your chains and handcuffs, I would argue, that giving the players the benefit of the doubt, would allow them to leave behind the tangefoot stuff too. Of course we are already talking about serious magic against a cheap alchemical item....
I actually remembered the source of that thing, a large (or huge?) marilith in a certain AP, has it in her tactics, that when the teleports aways, she has to leave her breastplate behind (a large breastplate is heaver than the weight limit on demon teleportation allows.
Since for some spells and circumstances clothing counts as having a n armor bonus of +0 I see no good reason to allow the fighter to leave his plate armor behind.Or to follow this line of reasoning, you can teleport out of the clutches of a grapplying monsters, let's say giant frog, so why should you not be able to teleport out of a spiders web or out of a normal (weapon) net?
I can see a certain amount of table variation here, but it is worth mentioning, that this is still pretty much using cannons to shot at sparrows.
Oh and the tangelshot bag doesn't work underwater, so you could argue that sufficient water could block or remove it, but even that is a grey are.
Found it, it is in WotR book 5 Herald of the
Ivory Labyrinth page 60,
If (redacted) is forced to use greater teleport, she must leave
her breastplate behind. When not wearing it, she always
allocates all of her swords’ defensive bonuses to her AC.
What AP is this? If you remember let me know. That weight limit is on carried things, not things she is wearing, so the author messed the rules up if they did it that way, twice. I don't have time now to fine it, but some multiclasses outsider would lose a lot of gear if that was the rules, and I am sure there is at least one specced out officially.That stuff is attached to you. I understand you want to help the player out, but it is not really working within the rules. As for teleporting out of handcuffs, I don't know about that either, anymore than you can teleport out of your pants.Yeah the alchemical solvement isn't great, but might be a reasonable solution when someone else applies it to you.
You can teleport out of your chains and handcuffs, I would argue, that giving the players the benefit of the doubt, would allow them to leave behind the tangefoot stuff too. Of course we are already talking about serious magic against a cheap alchemical item....
I actually remembered the source of that thing, a large (or huge?) marilith in a certain AP, has it in her tactics, that when the teleports aways, she has to leave her breastplate behind (a large breastplate is heaver than the weight limit on demon teleportation allows.
Since for some spells and circumstances clothing counts as having a n armor bonus of +0 I see no good reason to allow the fighter to leave his plate armor behind.Or to follow this line of reasoning, you can teleport out of the clutches of a grapplying monsters, let's say giant frog, so why should you not be able to teleport out of a spiders web or out of a normal (weapon) net?
I can see a certain amount of table variation here, but it is worth mentioning, that this is still pretty much using cannons to shot at sparrows.
Oh and the tangelshot bag doesn't work underwater, so you could argue that sufficient water could block or remove it, but even that is a grey are.
This could be another thread but why do you think teleport includes all worn items without weight limit...
demons specifically have a call out on limits (from bestiary 1)
greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only)
And teleport says:
You can bring along objects as long as their
weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring
one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or
objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster
levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge
creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth.
So a wizard can bring along up to the max carry + one creature (and as much as it can carry) per three caster levels.
Demons don't get that - they have a specific weight limit so I don't think they get a pass just because they are 'wearing' an item - they fall back to the old school teleport rules which were vastly simplified for players.
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Demons don't get that - they have a specific weight limit so I don't think they get a pass just because they are 'wearing' an item - they fall back to the old school teleport rules which were vastly simplified for players.
Normally that would not lead to them being able to teleport without their armor, leaving it behind, but to them not being able to teleport in heavy armor at all.
Heavy armor in this case means armor with a big weight.
we just had a prone enemy fail a reflex save on a tanglefoot bag but it was ruled he could still manipulate items while stuck to floor. bad guy drank poison after 2 aoo .
hail hydra!!!
i would have thought being entangled and failing reflex is far worse for this enemy.
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A demon's teleport is not exactly the same as the spell. It's a spell-like ability with slightly modified rules. Further, tactics in scenarios do not always reflect RAW and I have seen stuff hand-waved that explicitly contradicts RAW. This is intended as far as I can tell. They like to throw knowledgeable players curve balls or bend/break RAW for flavor purposes or to create enemies with unique abilities.
So you can't really cite how a demon's tactics and spell-like ability work in a scenario to determine how a PC's teleport spell should work.
The problem with teleporting out of tanglefoot goo is that once the item has hit the target, it is no longer an "object." It's a condition on the player from a strict rules perspective. It's no longer targetable as an object any more than catching on fire is. You cannot teleport to put out fire, and so you cannot teleport to escape a tanglefoot bag. Both catching on fire and tanglefoot bags have rules for interacting with the effect, outside of what's explicitly stated it cannot really be interacted with unless another spell/effect somewhere explicitly says it removes that condition (like Freedom of Movement).
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A demon's teleport is not exactly the same as the spell. It's a spell-like ability with slightly modified rules. Further, tactics in scenarios do not always reflect RAW and I have seen stuff hand-waved that explicitly contradicts RAW. This is intended as far as I can tell. They like to throw knowledgeable players curve balls or bend/break RAW for flavor purposes or to create enemies with unique abilities.
So you can't really cite how a demon's tactics and spell-like ability work in a scenario to determine how a PC's teleport spell should work.
The problem with teleporting out of tanglefoot goo is that once the item has hit the target, it is no longer an "object." It's a condition on the player from a strict rules perspective. It's no longer targetable as an object any more than catching on fire is. You cannot teleport to put out fire, and so you cannot teleport to escape a tanglefoot bag. Both catching on fire and tanglefoot bags have rules for interacting with the effect, outside of what's explicitly stated it cannot really be interacted with unless another spell/effect somewhere explicitly says it removes that condition (like Freedom of Movement).
I feel this is already going in a weird direction, but I can't help myself.
A spell like ability differs from the spell a wizard can cast in exactly the same ways as all spell like abilities (+the limit).
But for the sake of argument, the wizard with strength drain, while wearing a breastplate wants to teleport, the breastplate and abouple of other things are heaver than his maximum load.. .what happens?
And regarding the "can no longer be targeted..." you can very much "target it" with the various number of solvements.
Of course we will not get a hard and fast rule on this any time soon, and as I mentioned teleport is a high level spell, you might as well just use it to get out of combat, the tangelfoot only lasts 2d4 rounds..
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A demon's teleport is not exactly the same as the spell. It's a spell-like ability with slightly modified rules. Further, tactics in scenarios do not always reflect RAW and I have seen stuff hand-waved that explicitly contradicts RAW. This is intended as far as I can tell. They like to throw knowledgeable players curve balls or bend/break RAW for flavor purposes or to create enemies with unique abilities.
So you can't really cite how a demon's tactics and spell-like ability work in a scenario to determine how a PC's teleport spell should work.
The problem with teleporting out of tanglefoot goo is that once the item has hit the target, it is no longer an "object." It's a condition on the player from a strict rules perspective. It's no longer targetable as an object any more than catching on fire is. You cannot teleport to put out fire, and so you cannot teleport to escape a tanglefoot bag. Both catching on fire and tanglefoot bags have rules for interacting with the effect, outside of what's explicitly stated it cannot really be interacted with unless another spell/effect somewhere explicitly says it removes that condition (like Freedom of Movement).
I feel this is already going in a weird direction, but I can't help myself.
A spell like ability differs from the spell a wizard can cast in exactly the same ways as all spell like abilities (+the limit).
But for the sake of argument, the wizard with strength drain, while wearing a breastplate wants to teleport, the breastplate and abouple of other things are heaver than his maximum load.. .what happens?
And regarding the "can no longer be targeted..." you can very much "target it" with the various number of solvements.
Of course we will not get a hard and fast rule on this any time soon, and as I mentioned teleport is a high level spell, you might as well just use it to get out of combat, the tangelfoot only lasts 2d4 rounds..
It's a condition, not an object. It cannot be targeted unless some other effect says it can target a condition. Generally, it can be removed by effects that state they do so (usually by targeting the affected creature or including the affected creature in an aoe that removes that condition somehow). The rules are abundantly clear here, and as usual, Rule 0 applies. But RAW, this discussion is pretty much over.
Given that it cannot be targeted, and has no weight once the effect goes off (entangled creature is not +4 lbs), teleport does not interact with it. RAW is abundantly clear here and I will no longer be entertaining this distraction further. Because of this, the breastplate example is not a valid comparison.
EDIT: Oh, and FYI. 1) This specifically says it dissolves tanglefoot bags, which is why it works to remove the condition. 2)It is still applied to a creature. And then frees the creature from that condition because the solvent specifically negates the effects of the listed item.
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It's a condition, not an object. It cannot...A demon's teleport is not exactly the same as the spell. It's a spell-like ability with slightly modified rules. Further, tactics in scenarios do not always reflect RAW and I have seen stuff hand-waved that explicitly contradicts RAW. This is intended as far as I can tell. They like to throw knowledgeable players curve balls or bend/break RAW for flavor purposes or to create enemies with unique abilities.
So you can't really cite how a demon's tactics and spell-like ability work in a scenario to determine how a PC's teleport spell should work.
The problem with teleporting out of tanglefoot goo is that once the item has hit the target, it is no longer an "object." It's a condition on the player from a strict rules perspective. It's no longer targetable as an object any more than catching on fire is. You cannot teleport to put out fire, and so you cannot teleport to escape a tanglefoot bag. Both catching on fire and tanglefoot bags have rules for interacting with the effect, outside of what's explicitly stated it cannot really be interacted with unless another spell/effect somewhere explicitly says it removes that condition (like Freedom of Movement).
I feel this is already going in a weird direction, but I can't help myself.
A spell like ability differs from the spell a wizard can cast in exactly the same ways as all spell like abilities (+the limit).
But for the sake of argument, the wizard with strength drain, while wearing a breastplate wants to teleport, the breastplate and abouple of other things are heaver than his maximum load.. .what happens?
And regarding the "can no longer be targeted..." you can very much "target it" with the various number of solvements.
Of course we will not get a hard and fast rule on this any time soon, and as I mentioned teleport is a high level spell, you might as well just use it to get out of combat, the tangelfoot only lasts 2d4 rounds..
Well if you are done with the discussion, you are done so no reason for me to continue it. Frankly I see little reason to argue about the wording in the CRB, even after all those years we have plenty of unclear issues.