Ready an Action to Aid another


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Low-level figher playing up wrote:
I ready an action to aid Conan the Magnificent's attack AFTER he takes his first attack.

Situation:

"Low-level fighter playing up" is a L7 fighter playing the 10-11 tier of a 7-11 scenario. Hasn't hit anything but air.

Conan the Magnificent is a L9 who's landing his first attacks but whiffing his second attacks.

Aid Another's Attack ONLY AFFECTS one attack, not multiple attacks per round. So could you conceivably ready an action to aid his second attack? I see nothing in RAW to prevent it, but before I pull such a tactic out at the table, I want some confirmation. It sounds like so much cheese!


I don't think it's cheese, but I also don't think it works:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Ready wrote:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

And you said aid another affects one attack roll, but it's not any one attack roll you want; it's more specific than that:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Aid Another wrote:
If you succeed, your friend gains ... a +2 bonus on his next attack roll

If you ready an action to aid your ally, your readied action occurs just before the full round action he will use to make his full attack. If you succeed, his next attack gets the +2 bonus.

Sorry, it seemed like a good idea.


With this...
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

I would say you can ready an action to aid as it is a standard action. However I would say I aid ally before they make the second attack.

I don't think it is cheesy.

EDIT: DM Blake is right, its a full round action and secondary attacks happen within that single action


Since a full Attack does not happen UNTIL the second attack is made it should be fine.

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack wrote:
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round.

. It is the act of taking the second attack action that makes it a full attack and therefore it can be the thing that triggers the aid another.

Grand Lodge

SM_Blake wrote:

I don't think it's cheese, but I also don't think it works:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Ready wrote:


The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

And you said aid another affects one attack roll, but it's not any one attack roll you want; it's more specific than that:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Aid Another wrote:


If you succeed, your friend gains ... a +2 bonus on his next attack roll

If you ready an action to aid your ally, your readied action occurs just before the full round action he will use to make his full attack. If you succeed, his next attack gets the +2 bonus.

Sorry, it seemed like a good idea.

I am almost ready to concede. It was a hair-brained idea that happened to fly in through my left ear.

HOWEVER

By that logic, wouldn't one rule that readying an action to shoot a spellcaster if they start to cast a spell be tactically useless? The point of the action is to disrupt casting, but if your action takes place *before* theirs, then they aren't casting yet and need not make a concentration check, right? And if they're going to be casting as a full-round or multiple-round action, you don't need to bother readying the action, as you'll have a chance later.

I dunno. It was a lovely thought!

EDIT: to fix copy/pasted quotes


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DM_Blake wrote:

I don't think it's cheese, but I also don't think it works:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Ready wrote:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

And you said aid another affects one attack roll, but it's not any one attack roll you want; it's more specific than that:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Aid Another wrote:
If you succeed, your friend gains ... a +2 bonus on his next attack roll

If you ready an action to aid your ally, your readied action occurs just before the full round action he will use to make his full attack. If you succeed, his next attack gets the +2 bonus.

Sorry, it seemed like a good idea.

Why do people on both sides of this frequent discussion insist on not adjudicating readied actions correctly?

If my readied action is to aid another on his second attack, my aid another triggers just prior to his second attack. (Not prior to his full attack action).

This is exactly the same as readying an action to shoot the first enemy that comes around a corner. Obviously I can't shoot him BEFORE his action, because he is still hidden around a corner. It is also exactly the same as a readied action to attack an enemy who moves next to me. It clearly goes off when he is actually next to me, and not 15' away from me when he started his move action since 'by RAW it goes off before his action, so he is still 15' away'.

DM_Blake, its not my intent to insult you, or pick you out specifically, I just want to illustrate that going by a flat quotation of RAW on readied actions, without considering the RAI, doesn't actually work in quite a few scenarios.

A readied action really triggers based off a condition, which may or may not coincide with a specific action in the game.

Grand Lodge

bbangerter wrote:
<snip> frequent discussion <snip>

The takeaway being I'm not the first one to have this thought, and I should've searched the forums first! Hehe, my bad!


tchrman35 wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
<snip> frequent discussion <snip>
The takeaway being I'm not the first one to have this thought, and I should've searched the forums first! Hehe, my bad!

I don't know that your specific question has come up before or not, rather that discussions of how readied actions work in general is a frequent discussion.

Grand Lodge

Hmm. Well, Blake says no, BB says yes. So I think the next time I come across this particular situation (less likely now that my main fighter is L8 and my polearm fighter is L1), I'll ask the GM and see what s/he says.

Shadow Lodge

If it helps, I agree with bbangerter. Readying an attack against a charge is another classic example of a readied action taken in response to a condition occurring in the middle of another action.

Grand Lodge

Oddman80 wrote:
Since a full Attack does not happen UNTIL the second attack is made it should be fine.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack wrote:
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round.
. It is the act of taking the second attack action that makes it a full attack and therefore it can be the thing that triggers the aid another.

Oddman, HOW did I not see your response until just now.

The longer this thread stays around, the more I like my chances. :) If I'm in that situation again, I might actually be able to make myself useful!


I also agree with bbangerter. You can ready to interrupt the second, or even the third+ attack. You can ready an action for any condition, and if it triggers in the middle of some other action, then so be it.

The only thing I wouldn't allow readies to interrupt are things that actually occur simultaneously. Like between being hit and taking damage. However, there is clearly a gap between each attacks in a full-round attack (for example, they can choose to take a 5' step in between).

There are some borderline cases, like Whirlwind Attack, Cleave, and Scorching Rays. I'm curious how you guys feel about these.

Liberty's Edge

While a readied action interrupts the 'scene' when it triggers, the Combat Rules do not state that the readied action only affects that moment in time.

Example #1: Character #1 aids Character #2 with +2 to their attack. When Character #2's turn comes around, Character #1 makes a roll against AC10 to see if the Aid Another action works. If it does, Character #2 gains a +2 on their first attack.

Example #2: Character #1 readies a standard action to aid Character #2 with +2 to their second attack. When Character#2's turn comes around, they make their first attack normally. Character#2 then takes his second attack. Character #1's readied action is triggered their Standard Action to Aid Another takes place. Character #1 makes a roll against AC10 to see if the Aid Another action works. If it does, Character #2 gains a +2 on their second attack.

I don't see how this would be a problem. If someone else does, please comment. :)


Scorching ray is simultaneous, so you couldn't ready an action to assist on a specific ray. But given aid another on an attack means distracting a specific opponent (you must be able to make a melee attack against that opponent) it really doesn't matter. You could pick a target opponent, and one scorching ray fired at that opponent would get a bonus.

Cleave and whirlwind would function about the same, though a case could be made that if they successfully attack the first opponent, ready an action to aid another for their attack on the second. Though there wouldn't be much reason to ready an action in any of these cases - just use your standard on your turn to aid another - because all the attacks from scorching ray, cleave, or whirlwind would be at the same attack bonus as opposed to the BAB/BAB-5/BAB-10/BAB-15 you'd see from a full attack.


bbangerter wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

I don't think it's cheese, but I also don't think it works:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Ready wrote:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

And you said aid another affects one attack roll, but it's not any one attack roll you want; it's more specific than that:

Pathfinder SRD, Combat, Aid Another wrote:
If you succeed, your friend gains ... a +2 bonus on his next attack roll

If you ready an action to aid your ally, your readied action occurs just before the full round action he will use to make his full attack. If you succeed, his next attack gets the +2 bonus.

Sorry, it seemed like a good idea.

Why do people on both sides of this frequent discussion insist on not adjudicating readied actions correctly?

If my readied action is to aid another on his second attack, my aid another triggers just prior to his second attack. (Not prior to his full attack action).

This is exactly the same as readying an action to shoot the first enemy that comes around a corner. Obviously I can't shoot him BEFORE his action, because he is still hidden around a corner. It is also exactly the same as a readied action to attack an enemy who moves next to me. It clearly goes off when he is actually next to me, and not 15' away from me when he started his move action since 'by RAW it goes off before his action, so he is still 15' away'.

DM_Blake, its not my intent to insult you, or pick you out specifically, I just want to illustrate that going by a flat quotation of RAW on readied actions, without considering the RAI, doesn't actually work in quite a few scenarios.

A readied action really triggers based off a condition, which may or may not coincide with a specific action in the game.

I would normally agree with this, but RAW has the con here. The issue is that Aid Another specifies that it occurs before the action in question. It certainly has debate because of the whole "choose to not take a full attack" clause, and it becomes a catch-22.

The problem then stems: When does it become a Full Attack Action (and therefore, a Full Round Action)? Does it become it when I take more than 1 attack, does it become that when I declare I'm making a Full Attack Option and then the readied action occurs? It's not 100% clear, and with regards to readying an Aid Another, it has consequences depending on how it's ran. If it's when you declare you're making the Full Attack Option, then it automatically applies to the first attack, because the Aid Another occurs right before the action (Full Attack) takes place, and you can't shimmy your bonus to another iterative. If it's when you make more than 1 attack, then you could potentially apply Aid Another to the second attack (you wouldn't be able to apply it to a 3rd, 4th, or 5th attack, as that's not when the proxy applies), since the parameters you set (I ready an Aid Another to the second Attack Roll when X makes a Full Attack Action) still fall under the factor that it occurs before the action triggers.

As to which one is correct, it seems to be the second one, since the "choose to not take a full attack" clause provides more support to the second interpretation than the first, but both sides would have a case, and it all depends on how it's done (if it's declared outright, or if it's on a go-with-the-flow basis).


Here's a few interesting questions:

1. If I can aid another for attack #2 in a series of iterative attacks (using the idea that it's not a full attack until the second attack), does this mean that I cannot aid another for attack #3?

2. What if I aid another on an ally using Cleave (standard action), can I pick which of the two attacks will receive the +2 bonus?

3. What if I aid another on an ally using Rapid Shot (full round action that MUST be declared before taking the first shot since attack penalties are involved), can I pick which of the two attacks will receive the +2 bonus?

The RAW says none of the above work.

Extrapolating from that and based off RAW, the OP's scenario is not allowed by RAW.

I supposes there is wiggle room for some metagame cheese like the following:

OP: I ready an action to aid my ally when he declares a full-attack
Ally: I begin my turn with a standard attack against this monster
(standard attack is resolved)
Ally: Now I make a second attack against the monster which turns my action into a full-attack
OP: That triggers my readied action, I use aid another to give my ally +2 on this next attack.

I can't find any RAW argument against that, but really, could you imagine two allies in real life planning their combat strategy like that? For me, as a GM, I expect my players to use the Ready action to trigger their action by something meaningful to their characters; readying for a metagame concept is something a character cannot do. But that's just me.

As for the RAI, I think it would be just fine to do what the OP wants to do. I would personally allow it in my home game. I just don't think that RAW supports it without the metagame cheese.

Shadow Lodge

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Interesting question which points out the dangers of reading the text very strictly with the computer parser hat on.

I've always run that you can ready an action for practically any condition. For example, you could ready an action for when something reaches a doorway to enter the room you're in. Your readied action could go off in the middle of the enemy's move action in this case. It obviously wouldn't work if it occurred before the enemy began their move action (as they're 15-20ft down the hall out of line of sight).

This is the text that is problematic to parse:

Readying An Action, CRB and PHB3.5 wrote:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

This is the exact same text that existed in the 3.5e PHB. I believe this text is simply telling you where to place the action in initiative order and isn't meant to say your action must strictly occur before another action begins resolution.

The 3.5e PHB gives the example I gave above:

Readying An Action, PHB3.5 wrote:
For example, you might specify that you will shoot an arrow at anyone coming through a nearby doorway. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.

3.5e included this example, and it was a good one since it established a precedent for its use that clearly shows the action can take place at any time, including in the middle of another action (i.e. in the middle of the move action in the case of the example... when the target crests the doorway).

I suspect Jason axed the example not because he intended to change how readying worked, but he was simply trying to improve the word count in the rules and felt the example was superfluous to establishing how the rule worked.

Pathfinder CRB does include this:

Readying An Action, CRB wrote:
If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.

I think with all the context and by going back to the originating rules, you can see you can "interrupt another character's activities", which in the OP's question is interrupting their attack sequence in between the first and second attack they are making.

Shadow Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I would normally agree with this, but RAW has the con here. The issue is that Aid Another specifies that it occurs before the action in question.

No, it says it applies on your ally's next attack. That's slightly different.

Aid Another wrote:
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

If we accept that readied actions can interrupt an action that is in progress (and if we don't accept that premise, we can't brace against a charge) we can ready an action to interrupt a full attack. The aid another bonus then applies to the next attack - one of the iteratives.

DM_Blake wrote:
1. If I can aid another for attack #2 in a series of iterative attacks (using the idea that it's not a full attack until the second attack), does this mean that I cannot aid another for attack #3?

It shouldn't matter where in the full attack you interrupt. If you ready an attack against an opponent that comes within your reach, you can make that attack whether the opponent comes into reach with a 5ft step, halfway through their move, or at the end of their move.

DM_Blake wrote:
2. What if I aid another on an ally using Cleave (standard action), can I pick which of the two attacks will receive the +2 bonus?

Since you aid an attack against a specific opponent, and Cleave targets two different opponents, yes.

DM_Blake wrote:
3. What if I aid another on an ally using Rapid Shot (full round action that MUST be declared before taking the first shot since attack penalties are involved), can I pick which of the two attacks will receive the +2 bonus?

Yes.

Liberty's Edge

I'm also bbangerter, et al. A readied action, for initiative purposes, occurs immediately before the action it interrupted. However, the action itself can resolve at any point in the middle of that action as long as you could set condition to trigger on. This means you can trigger in the middle of movement, charge attacks, on the 2nd+ attack in a full-round, etc. However, you could not trigger between attack roll and damage roll since those two events occur simultaneously. Nor could you trigger between damage being applied and death as those also occur simultaneously. You can even declare your condition to be something you could not perceive, though this is pointless since it won't ever trigger.

The example was removed not because of any concern over word count or confusion but because the examples were not OGC as they were not published on the SRD. This meant that they were protected by copyright and could not be duplicated by PF. They simply chose not to make new examples.

Grand Lodge

Weirdo wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
3. What if I aid another on an ally using Rapid Shot (full round
Yes

No, you can aid another if they're engaged in melee. Rapid Shot means no melee.

The Exchange

I personally think it would work for the following reasons:
1. After declaring a full round attack action, after the first attack, the player has the option to change the rest of the attack to a move action. So there is an implied move action that is a part of a full round action.
2. The Core Rule Book explicitly states, "If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."
3. There are feats that also interrupt full round actions - like Seize the Moment - an allies critical threat allows you an attack of opportunity (Stabbitty Doom, I believe that counters what you said about an interrupt between a roll to attack and a roll to damage); Improved Feint Partner - when ally successfully hits you gain an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity always go off immediately before the next attack.

Wording needs to be carefully considered when stating your readied action and very specific. Personally I would state the following: I ready to Aid Joe Blow's second attack on his turn.

Liberty's Edge

Soha wrote:

I personally think it would work for the following reasons:

1. After declaring a full round attack action, after the first attack, the player has the option to change the rest of the attack to a move action. So there is an implied move action that is a part of a full round action.
2. The Core Rule Book explicitly states, "If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."
3. There are feats that also interrupt full round actions - like Seize the Moment - an allies critical threat allows you an attack of opportunity (Stabbitty Doom, I believe that counters what you said about an interrupt between a roll to attack and a roll to damage); Improved Feint Partner - when ally successfully hits you gain an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity always go off immediately before the next attack.

Wording needs to be carefully considered when stating your readied action and very specific. Personally I would state the following: I ready to Aid Joe Blow's second attack on his turn.

The "simultaneous events" thing isn't because the rules explicitly state that, but because it's implied that the readied condition must be something you can perceive, and perception-wise there isn't (to my knowledge) a difference between a successful attack roll and its damage roll. Other abilities, such as that feat, are totally allowed to break that rule and do so quite often. If you can perceive it, you can ready based on it :).


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Soha wrote:

I personally think it would work for the following reasons:

1. After declaring a full round attack action, after the first attack, the player has the option to change the rest of the attack to a move action. So there is an implied move action that is a part of a full round action.
2. The Core Rule Book explicitly states, "If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."
3. There are feats that also interrupt full round actions - like Seize the Moment - an allies critical threat allows you an attack of opportunity (Stabbitty Doom, I believe that counters what you said about an interrupt between a roll to attack and a roll to damage); Improved Feint Partner - when ally successfully hits you gain an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity always go off immediately before the next attack.

Wording needs to be carefully considered when stating your readied action and very specific. Personally I would state the following: I ready to Aid Joe Blow's second attack on his turn.

The "simultaneous events" thing isn't because the rules explicitly state that, but because it's implied that the readied condition must be something you can perceive, and perception-wise there isn't (to my knowledge) a difference between a successful attack roll and its damage roll. Other abilities, such as that feat, are totally allowed to break that rule and do so quite often. If you can perceive it, you can ready based on it :).

There are several spells and abilities that allow you to add to a roll or force a roll to be redone after the results are known. If it's not possible to perceive the difference between a successful attack roll and an unsuccessful one, then spells like Timely Inspiration can't exist.

But Timely Inspiration does exist, so there must be some way to know whether a roll has missed or hit.

Liberty's Edge

Gwen Smith wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Soha wrote:

I personally think it would work for the following reasons:

1. After declaring a full round attack action, after the first attack, the player has the option to change the rest of the attack to a move action. So there is an implied move action that is a part of a full round action.
2. The Core Rule Book explicitly states, "If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."
3. There are feats that also interrupt full round actions - like Seize the Moment - an allies critical threat allows you an attack of opportunity (Stabbitty Doom, I believe that counters what you said about an interrupt between a roll to attack and a roll to damage); Improved Feint Partner - when ally successfully hits you gain an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity always go off immediately before the next attack.

Wording needs to be carefully considered when stating your readied action and very specific. Personally I would state the following: I ready to Aid Joe Blow's second attack on his turn.

The "simultaneous events" thing isn't because the rules explicitly state that, but because it's implied that the readied condition must be something you can perceive, and perception-wise there isn't (to my knowledge) a difference between a successful attack roll and its damage roll. Other abilities, such as that feat, are totally allowed to break that rule and do so quite often. If you can perceive it, you can ready based on it :).

There are several spells and abilities that allow you to add to a roll or force a roll to be redone after the results are known. If it's not possible to perceive the difference between a successful attack roll and an unsuccessful one, then spells like Timely Inspiration can't exist.

But Timely Inspiration does exist, so there must be some way to know whether a roll has missed or hit.

Missed or hit, yes. But you can't perceive the difference between hit and damage. They happen at the same time. I never argued you couldn't tell the difference between a hit and a miss :P


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Also, some spells and special abilities operate in the 'meta gaming' realm. I would put most rerolling in this category.

Liberty's Edge

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I also have to point out...Aid another is a unique mechanic that does not give a huge impact on combat, so why not just allow it? It is true that the option to ready an action for an iterative attack could have unforeseen consequences, but none come to mind at the moment. The thing is that you can always reevaluate it later and change it if needed.

As a GM, I periodically have hold my ground on what I perceive as an important rule. If I am too strict or too wishy washy, I may loose player confidence. Giving way to creative moves by players usually makes the game more fun and strengthens the GM/Player relationship. As Aid Another is such a minor mechanic, I would not use this as a place in which to make a stand.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Soha wrote:

I personally think it would work for the following reasons:

1. After declaring a full round attack action, after the first attack, the player has the option to change the rest of the attack to a move action. So there is an implied move action that is a part of a full round action.
2. The Core Rule Book explicitly states, "If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."
3. There are feats that also interrupt full round actions - like Seize the Moment - an allies critical threat allows you an attack of opportunity (Stabbitty Doom, I believe that counters what you said about an interrupt between a roll to attack and a roll to damage); Improved Feint Partner - when ally successfully hits you gain an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity always go off immediately before the next attack.

Wording needs to be carefully considered when stating your readied action and very specific. Personally I would state the following: I ready to Aid Joe Blow's second attack on his turn.

The "simultaneous events" thing isn't because the rules explicitly state that, but because it's implied that the readied condition must be something you can perceive, and perception-wise there isn't (to my knowledge) a difference between a successful attack roll and its damage roll. Other abilities, such as that feat, are totally allowed to break that rule and do so quite often. If you can perceive it, you can ready based on it :).

There are several spells and abilities that allow you to add to a roll or force a roll to be redone after the results are known. If it's not possible to perceive the difference between a successful attack roll and an unsuccessful one, then spells like Timely Inspiration can't exist.

But Timely Inspiration does exist, so there must be some way to know whether a roll has missed or hit.

Missed or hit, yes. But you can't perceive the difference between hit and damage. They happen at the same time. I never argued you couldn't tell the difference between a hit and a miss :P

Then I've completely missed a step. Aid another can't have any impact on the damage roll, so how is that relevant at all?

"I ready an action to aid another if my partner misses." Where does the damage fit in here?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Also, some spells and special abilities operate in the 'meta gaming' realm. I would put most rerolling in this category.

I would put many uses of Aid Another in this category as well (specifically Bodyguard), not to mention Readying an Action.

I run a Bodyguard character with 3 AoOs a round. It's very common for this character to say something like, "OK, that monster has 2 claws, a bite, and a tail stinger. I know the bite does more damage, and the tail has poison, so I want to let the first two attacks go by then use Bodyguard to aid my friend's AC against the last two." I've yet to have a GM suggest that this is not possible or somehow not how Bodyguard is supposed to work.

But to do that, I have to be able to interrupt the monster's full attack action to perform the Aid Another action. Nothing in Bodyguard specifically gives me the ability to interrupt a full attack. It seems like if I can interrupt the monster's full attack, I should be able to ready an action to interrupt my friend's full attack.

I can't come up with a situation where I wouldn't allow someone with a readied action to interrupt an enemy's full attack if the trigger occurred in the middle of that full attack.


Weirdo wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I would normally agree with this, but RAW has the con here. The issue is that Aid Another specifies that it occurs before the action in question.

No, it says it applies on your ally's next attack. That's slightly different.

Aid Another wrote:
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
If we accept that readied actions can interrupt an action that is in progress (and if we don't accept that premise, we can't brace against a charge) we can ready an action to interrupt a full attack. The aid another bonus then applies to the next attack - one of the iteratives.

And RAI, that's how it should be (and I hope that is the case). I'm simply pointing out the RAW, and when we take that text and apply it, we get results XYZ.

RAW also gives Charging/Bracing and Counterspelling/Interrupting a Spell Cast special credence, as each have their own section (and specifics) in relation to the Ready an Action entry:

Distracting Spellcasters - Readying to Counterspell wrote:

Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).

Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.

Readying a Weapon against a Charge wrote:
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

Of course, I will point out that Brace weapons only double the damage dealt on readying an attack against a charge (one of the smart things you could do with your standard action if you go first), it doesn't give anything special, so I will forfeit this one, though it makes no sense to make it its own section as far as Readied Actions are concerned.

Shadow Lodge

EDIT: Valid, Darksol. I'd just ask any GM who disallowed readying to aid another on an iterative attack if they'd also disallow readying to strike a creature in the middle of a move action (such as turning a corner or passing by my character) - actions that have no special treatment in RAW but are pretty universally accepted. I think most would also go with the RAI in this case rather than forbid interrupting a move because of RAW.

Gwen Smith wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Also, some spells and special abilities operate in the 'meta gaming' realm. I would put most rerolling in this category.

I would put many uses of Aid Another in this category as well (specifically Bodyguard), not to mention Readying an Action.

I run a Bodyguard character with 3 AoOs a round. It's very common for this character to say something like, "OK, that monster has 2 claws, a bite, and a tail stinger. I know the bite does more damage, and the tail has poison, so I want to let the first two attacks go by then use Bodyguard to aid my friend's AC against the last two." I've yet to have a GM suggest that this is not possible or somehow not how Bodyguard is supposed to work.

I don't think that's meta. Your character knows that the bite and tail stinger are more dangerous than the claws, and they can't react quickly enough to interfere with all the attacks, so they focus on preventing the bite and stinger from landing even if that means letting the claws through.

claudekennilol wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
3. What if I aid another on an ally using Rapid Shot (full round
Yes
No, you can aid another if they're engaged in melee. Rapid Shot means no melee.

Oops, correct.

Grand Lodge

This has been a remarkably informative thread! Thank you all so much! I'm definitely going to ask the GM at the next table I sit at where he falls on this - before the game!

Much better to ask before the game than in the moment, where a considered response is usually replaced with an off-the-cuff, "I don't think it works that way."

Oh, and it was pointed out to me by a friend that I should remember to fight defensively when I do this. I get an AC bonus out of it and, while -4 on attacks of opportunity is unfortunate, it's hardly going to keep me from hitting AC10! In fact, I might just do the same thing next time I'm the caster who's out of spells. (Although maybe not; if you dump strength and have a low BAB, suddenly those 4 points make a difference!)

Liberty's Edge

tchrman35 wrote:
Oh, and it was pointed out to me by a friend that I should remember to fight defensively when I do this. I get an AC bonus out of it and, while -4 on attacks of opportunity is unfortunate, it's hardly going to keep me from hitting AC10! In fact, I might just do the same thing next time I'm the caster who's out of spells. (Although maybe not; if you dump strength and have a low BAB, suddenly those 4 points make a difference!)

Sorry, but that may not work at all tables. For instance, if you were at my table, I would not allow it.

You can choose to fight defensively when attacking...

While you are rolling an attack roll vs AC 10 when performing an Aid Another, you are not actually attacking anything. For example, I would not see allowing 'attacking the air' to Fight Defensively.

Liberty's Edge

RedDogMT wrote:
tchrman35 wrote:
Oh, and it was pointed out to me by a friend that I should remember to fight defensively when I do this. I get an AC bonus out of it and, while -4 on attacks of opportunity is unfortunate, it's hardly going to keep me from hitting AC10! In fact, I might just do the same thing next time I'm the caster who's out of spells. (Although maybe not; if you dump strength and have a low BAB, suddenly those 4 points make a difference!)

Sorry, but that may not work at all tables. For instance, if you were at my table, I would not allow it.

You can choose to fight defensively when attacking...

While you are rolling an attack roll vs AC 10 when performing an Aid Another, you are not actually attacking anything. For example, I would not see allowing 'attacking the air' to Fight Defensively.

While I understand your sentiment on your final point, attacking the air is functionally indistinct from attacking an invisible creature and missing.

Not allowing the player to declare fighting defensively as a standard action by simply forfeiting the attack is just asking for silliness like sundering the ground (which is both a valid attack and a valid target).

That said, you are correct that Aid Another is not an attack at all, it's a special action that uses an attack roll, which makes it ineligible for combination with Fighting Defensively.

Liberty's Edge

StabbittyDoom wrote:

While I understand your sentiment on your final point, attacking the air is functionally indistinct from attacking an invisible creature and missing.

Not allowing the player to declare fighting defensively as a standard action by simply forfeiting the attack is just asking for silliness like sundering the ground (which is both a valid attack and a valid target).

This is off the original topic, so we don't need to debate it here. There are other threads that have debated it...

...but it does serve my point that there will be table variation. :)

Grand Lodge

StabbittyDoom wrote:
That said, you are correct that Aid Another is not an attack at all, it's a special action that uses an attack roll, which makes it ineligible for combination with Fighting Defensively.

It's listed under the "Special Attacks" heading. And you do have to be 1) in threat range and 2) making an attack roll.

idk. Again, not tied to the tactic. Just thinking.


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tchrman35 wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
That said, you are correct that Aid Another is not an attack at all, it's a special action that uses an attack roll, which makes it ineligible for combination with Fighting Defensively.

It's listed under the "Special Attacks" heading. And you do have to be 1) in threat range and 2) making an attack roll.

idk. Again, not tied to the tactic. Just thinking.

Every GM I've played with has allowed it. Your mileage may vary.

We usually go based on "If you get the bonus from your weapon or Bless or whatever, it counts as an attack."


I have a lvl 5 Investigator that specializes in Aid Another. He's a halfling with the Helpful race trait and Battlefield Disciple combat trait. He has the Effortless Aid Investigator Talent, Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard as feats, and is wearing +2 Benevolent armor.
All that means that during his turn he can aid attacks at +5 or AC for +6, and he can use the aid another action as a standard, move, or swift (costing inspiration) action. With Bodyguard, he can boost AC against 4 attacks outside of his turn.
After getting Bodyguard, I stopped aiding for AC on my turn when my allies were adjacent. So that left me with 2 aiding actions a round for allies' attacks. When only 1 ally is adjacent, I can attack, or do something else with my standard/move action remaining, instead of making 2 Aid actions.

It appears the consensus here is that I could use my move action to aid my ally's next attack, then ready as a standard to aid the ally's subsequent attack. That will be a nice boost to the iterative attacks my lvl 6+ allies have. I'll just have to check with GMs when we sit down at PFS tables.


CRB on readied actions wrote:
If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

Readying an action to act in the middle of another's action is explicitly allowed for.

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