A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.Prepare to be a sad panda.
... Why do I have to be level 2 to give an my ediolon a sword?
Azatas gets all martial weapons at first level. I think Extra Evolution will be common at first, though.
Stats gets all martial weapons at first level. I think Extra Evolution will be common at first, though.A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.Prepare to be a sad panda.
... Why do I have to be level 2 to give an my ediolon a sword?
Looks like autocorrect and azatas don't get along. My guess is because autocorrect is so lawful!
And you could still give them a weapon. They just won't be proficient in it at first.
Looks like autocorrect and azatas don't get along. My guess is because autocorrect is so lawful!Stats gets all martial weapons at first level. I think Extra Evolution will be common at first, though.A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.Prepare to be a sad panda.
... Why do I have to be level 2 to give an my ediolon a sword?
Ha, thanks! Got it while the window was open. Spellchecker Inevitable Eidolon with Skilled (Linguistics)?
... House game with Broodmaster LN Summoner with a shoulder angel and devil? (Okay, so Small still isn't shoulder size, but the idea works.)
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... House game with Broodmaster LN Summoner with a shoulder angel and devil? (Okay, so Small still isn't shoulder size, but the idea works.)
Oh man, or put it on an NPC Large character. Maybe like an ettin, with each head agreeing more with one of the two.
... House game with Broodmaster LN Summoner with a shoulder angel and devil? (Okay, so Small still isn't shoulder size, but the idea works.)Oh man, or put it on an NPC Large character. Maybe like an ettin, with each head agreeing more with one of the two.
Meanwhile, TN with a Protean and Inevitable is the set up for Golarion's first sitcom.
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Meanwhile, TN with a Protean and Inevitable is the set up for Golarion's first sitcom.... House game with Broodmaster LN Summoner with a shoulder angel and devil? (Okay, so Small still isn't shoulder size, but the idea works.)Oh man, or put it on an NPC Large character. Maybe like an ettin, with each head agreeing more with one of the two.
Next on, "Me, Myself, and Eidolon"...
I: "Query: State your answer in the form of affirmative or negative. Did you or did you not eat the last slice of cake."
P: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously!"
S: "Oh my crazy roommates!"
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*tosses another character into the trashbin*I'm trying to be sympathetic, but statements like this make it very difficult.
Sorry if I feel that half way through my career is a bit late for a character to reach it's base concept. Cause no way can I fudge a creepy-empty-suit-of-armor ediolon as an azatas. Psychopomp, maybe, but again, LEVEL 5; FOR A SWORD.
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*tosses another character into the trashbin*I'm trying to be sympathetic, but statements like this make it very difficult.
Statements like this underline the cognitive dissonance going on here.
Some people are seeing a nerf that is kinda interesting.
Others were hoping for options that would weaken the class but also were hoping that at the same time, some logical options would be opened up, things like smarter eidolons, weapon wielding eidolons, eidolons with balanced supernatural abilities. There are a lot of cool character concepts that could have been made to work with the Unchained Summoner. This could have been done while still weakening the class.
From what I'm seeing no effort was made to do this and people like me and 9mm are disappointed. From what I see we should be.
This lack not only the very essence of a legitimate complaint, but the essence of the dissatisfaction with the Unchained Summoner. While I can try to be sympathetic to you not seeing this, it too is difficult.
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Azatas gets all martial weapons at first level. I think Extra Evolution will be common at first, though.A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.Prepare to be a sad panda.
... Why do I have to be level 2 to give an my ediolon a sword?
Was Extra Evolution not common at first/fifth/etc. before? (Master Summoners aside.)
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Why not take Martial Weapon Proficiency as your Eidolon's 1st level feat?
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Why not take Martial Weapon Proficiency as your Eidolon's 1st level feat?This is what I did with my Armor eidolon. Way back when Kingmaker first came out, I played a swordswoman summoner with an eidolon based on the image of Gorum.
I have a feeling your eidolon/summoner was pleased when you got <redacted>.
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I have a hard time feeling bad for some of the complaints about the new eidolons mostly because the specifics are what people are complaining about.
"I can't do this the exact same way/the way I want to anymore so it's bad."
Pathfinder/Dnd has never been a game where you could make everything, some concepts just don't work with the base rules, it happens. Re flavoring Fluff can help.
I like the changes I actually might build a summoner now, I can actually look at these and go hey now I get a pet and the ability to make it better as I level instead of getting this shapeless blob and trying to come up with something that isn't the same pounce machine as every other eidolon you hear about.
I'd say being unable to pull of the concept of having an animated suit of armor Eidolan that wields weapons without being an Azata or wasting a feat on proficiency with a single martial weapon is pretty sad.
I think I am "mostly" fine with the new summoner, as long as we can get some new Eidolon types in the next year or so. The revision sadly left out a lot of iconic creature/outsider types that are hard to pull off now, especially with alignment constraints.
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I think I am "mostly" fine with the new summoner, as long as we can get some new Eidolon types in the next year or so. The revision sadly left out a lot of iconic creature/outsider types that are hard to pull off now, especially with alignment constraints.
I really hope so. In addition to the Fey chassis I hoped for in another thread, I'd say one of the most appropriate outsider types for this type of summoner was the Kyton. Their absence (when div made it in) is truly staggering to me.
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I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.
I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.
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I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.
I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.
You're not the only one.
I thought it made sense that the eidolon was an extension of the Summoner's will given form. That's why it was shaped completely by their decision.
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I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.
I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.
You're not the only one.
I thought it made sense that the eidolon was an extension of the Summoner's will given form. That's why it was shaped completely by their decision.
I will third this notion. Now alignment shifts just make the extension of your on will disappear, instead of changing to match.*
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I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.
I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.
I kinda felt that way and my backgrounds tended to match this. For example, my Pfs defiantly not a pounce monster was also NOT a pet. She has a 12 int at 6th level and happily married to her summoner. Those ties, including their children (Herald and Squire vanities) are what hold her to this plane.
My other eidilon is the imaginary childhood friend of an isolated half elven girl whose human play mates kept outgrowing her. After said girl joined the eagle knights, he spent a night complaining to an Andoran official how his inability to join the Order is obviously a GROSS oversight.
I guess I never had problems filling in the blanks for summoner backgrounds and now I feel like I need to work around all this interplaner baggage that may or may not match what I have in mind.
It's interesting how for some players what I view as baggage is for others a useful skeleton they can build their concept around.
And both of these things are cool depending how you look at it.
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I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.
I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.
You're not the only one.
I thought it made sense that the eidolon was an extension of the Summoner's will given form. That's why it was shaped completely by their decision.
I will third this notion. Now alignment shifts just make the extension of your on will disappear, instead of changing to match.*
Fourthed. One of my summoner concepts involves a pre-existing outsider. The other is a divinely bestowed alternate form.
Late to the party, as it just arrived last night. Glad to finally have my copy of "Pathfinder Unchained (except for summoner, which is shackled)".
I'm OK with the spell list changes, for the most part. I'm willing to try it with the reduced the number of evolution points. Why I'm throwing out the Unchained summoner is subytypes. It went from "The eidolon takes whatever form the summoner desires" to "The eidolon takes one of a small set of forms that we imagine with restrictions." And I realize that the subtypes grant specific bonuses at particular levels, which makes up for some lost evolution points with... things that were evolutions. I'm reminded of some SKR advice for archetype design. 4) Limiting an existing class ability to one already-available choice isn't cool, nor is it a limitation.
Admittedly, I haven't put in effort, but glancing at the list, didn't see anything that my synthesist character would fit into.
My final assessment: Paizo had a chance to redesign a controversial class. Instead they just hacked pieces off of it. The redesign comes out as an opportunity wasted. Uninteresting, and unworthy of the brand.
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A player makes an unchained summoner with an Azata eidolon. He/she asks the GM if the eidolon can look like an animated suit of armor with no mechanical difference. GM says "of course." Problem solved.
Of course, you could use an Inevitable eidolon.
Or, more likely, the GM says "That doesn't sound much like an Azata to me, why don't you use a subtype that seems to match your concept better?", and then the player says "because in order to get proficiency weapon, I would have to either spend a precious Eidolon feat on weapon proficiency, or else spend a precious evolution point for the concept to really work", to which the GM will think "This sounds like a player who is trying to cheese the system for some mechanical advantage I can't quite put my finger on, so I'll stand my ground about using a different subtype for that concept and if the player won't accept my compromise, that proves it wasn't about the concept, but only the mechanics."
THIS! SO MUCH THIS! I've seen SO many GMs act this way! (And the other way as well.)
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I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.
I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.
You're not the only one.
I thought it made sense that the eidolon was an extension of the Summoner's will given form. That's why it was shaped completely by their decision.
I will third this notion. Now alignment shifts just make the extension of your on will disappear, instead of changing to match.*
Fourthed. One of my summoner concepts involves a pre-existing outsider. The other is a divinely bestowed alternate form.
Late to the party, as it just arrived last night. Glad to finally have my copy of "Pathfinder Unchained (except for summoner, which is shackled)".
I'm OK with the spell list changes, for the most part. I'm willing to try it with the reduced the number of evolution points. Why I'm throwing out the Unchained summoner is subytypes. It went from "The eidolon takes whatever form the summoner desires" to "The eidolon takes one of a small set of forms that we imagine with restrictions." And I realize that the subtypes grant specific bonuses at particular levels, which makes up for some lost evolution points with... things that were evolutions. I'm reminded of some SKR advice for archetype design. 4) Limiting an existing class ability to one already-available choice isn't cool, nor is it a limitation.
Admittedly, I haven't put in effort, but glancing at the list, didn't see anything that my synthesist character...
Well, that's fine for people who want Stands from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (which, admittedly, is a cool concept).
But some of us would rather have Johann Faust as our concept.
I don't want an amorphous blob of my psychic energy that over time starts to look like Mephistopheles. If I'm playing Johann Faust, I want Mephistopheles HIMSELF as my b$%!! (until, of course, 24 years pass and he takes my soul...)
Bear in mind that the Spiritualist is coming out in a few months, is probably going to be an Alternate Class to the Summoner, and for all intents and purposes IS Jotaro Kujo, with a being formed of psychic energy. So you get to keep your old "made from me" summoner while others who wanted Solomon The Wise get to have THEIR angel-summoning Summoner.
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Admittedly, I haven't put in effort, but glancing at the list, didn't see anything that my synthesist character would fit into.
That'd fit perfectly as an Agathion. Which would actually give you Lay on Hands (one of the best options for a Synthesist, IMO). You could probably also justify it as a Demon if you liked.
Admittedly, I haven't put in effort, but glancing at the list, didn't see anything that my synthesist character would fit into.That'd fit perfectly as an Agathion. Which would actually give you Lay on Hands (one of the best options for a Synthesist, IMO). You could probably also justify it as a Demon if you liked.
I'm looking at that now. OK, physically, I suppose it fits the flavor text of taking on an animal shape, which WAS what I asked. So I look at how it fits if I convert over to the PU version. Now, laying on hands has nothing at all to do with my character concept, and electricity resistance/immunity makes little sense. Also, I'm more than one alignment step away from NG. While I admit that those are nice abilities to have, they aren't for this character.
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I'm looking at that now. OK, physically, I suppose it fits the flavor text of taking on an animal shape, which WAS what I asked. So I look at how it fits if I convert over to the PU version. Now, laying on hands has nothing at all to do with my character concept, and electricity resistance/immunity makes little sense. Also, I'm more than one alignment step away from NG. While I admit that those are nice abilities to have, they aren't for this character.
What alignment? And what's the concept? I'm pretty sure something can be figured out.
Big angry shark? I assume is CN untill someone tells me otherwise.
Big angry shark? I assume is CN untill someone tells me otherwise.
Got it in one.
I'm looking at that now. OK, physically, I suppose it fits the flavor text of taking on an animal shape, which WAS what I asked. So I look at how it fits if I convert over to the PU version. Now, laying on hands has nothing at all to do with my character concept, and electricity resistance/immunity makes little sense. Also, I'm more than one alignment step away from NG. While I admit that those are nice abilities to have, they aren't for this character.What alignment? And what's the concept? I'm pretty sure something can be figured out.
It's more likely that if the GM requires me to switch, which I doubt he will, it'll take some fiddling, and I might have to create my own subtype in HeroLab. But I can't use it as written for existing characters, and I find the subtypes too limiting in general.
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2. that they had also done an unchained on gunslinger at the same time because if anything was more op than summoner... it was gunslinger for sure.
That is adorable.
100% WRONG, but adorable.
No, Gunslingers themselves are actually a bit UNDER-powered.
Modern Firearms are dumb as nuts, and to a degree so are Double Barreled Pistols. There's a reason modern firearms have replaced basically every other weapon for mass combat in modern times, and even most one-on-one forms of combat.
There's also a reason that most DMs don't allow Modern Firearms in their games - they're kinda totally busted.
The Gunslinger class itself, though, while a fantastic dip, is itself not great compared to most other Martials out there.
A Holy Gun Paladin can be much scarier than the Gunslinger, as can a Trench Fighter, a Musketeer Cavalier, Trophy Hunter Ranger, etc.
Guns hitting at Touch Attacks are nasty, but not OP, and several other Ranged classes have extremely similar tricks (including anyone with a Wand of Scorching Ray, which is MUCH more devastating than most firearms).
Pistols require Paper Cartridges & Rapid Reload to reload as a Free Action (which increases the chance of misfire), and Muskets & other Two-Handed Firearms require class-granted special abilities in order to reload faster than a Move Action even with Reload and Paper Cartridges available.
Modern firearms have basically no misfire, and especially things like Revolvers let you fire off up to 6 shots per firearm before needing to reload.
NONE of these qualities are inherent to the Gunslinger class, however - ANYONE who picks up Gunsmithing and EWP([firearm]) is just as effective as the Gunslinger. Hell, most classes are BETTER at being a sharshooter than the Gunslinger, ironically.
The best way to make a firearms master is to dip a single level of GS just to get that proficiency with firearms, Gunsmithing, and the first-level Deeds (which are really just icing on the cake, honestly), and then proceed to advance in any level that's NOT Gunsligner (Gunslinger 1 / Ranger X is one of the better choices).
If the Gunslinger was, in fact, broken, it wouldn't be relegated to "primarily dip-only" status the same way the Fighter is.
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[
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No, Gunslingers themselves are actually a bit UNDER-powered.
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Guns hitting at Touch Attacks are nasty, but not OP, and several other Ranged classes have extremely similar tricks (including anyone with a Wand of Scorching Ray, which is MUCH more devastating than most firearms).
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I will just disagree with you. From my experience, way too many times higher level gun users hit on a 2. If you make it so you add your dexterity to damage it becomes even worse; especially when you roll that natural 20 that is almost always confirmed at a x4.
Scorching ray wands are typically more expensive per shot (120 gp per shot unless you take craft wand) and you usually can only ever fire one a round. Also they do fire damage and fire resistance/immunity is one of the more common ones, in my opinion. Not to mention, gun users usually have a higher BAB so will hit more often.
With Rapid Reload and paper cartridges, gun users can shoot an amazing number of times, however the misfire rate does go up with paper cartridges.
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i honestly dont see a issue with the new summoner. is it de-powered. Sure it is, but thats not a bad thing. Summoner was over powered. Nothing about the rework makes me cry and i have 3 summoners active.
I just wish the nerfs did something other than just encourage more of the same, either you make the best DPR monster you can, or make your eidolon a skill monkey and fight with the completely not nerfed in any way SLA. (protip to GMS: read up on stirges and elementals, you'll be seeing them alot now)
2. that they had also done an unchained on gunslinger at the same time because if anything was more op than summoner... it was gunslinger for sure.
Don't blame the Gunslinger for what are the Gun Rules problems, as paizo decided to make guns super-special-awesome before ever making the class that uses them. Anybody with enough feats can go to town with double barreled pistols. Why paizo didn't make guns ranged scimitars and muskets ranged heavy picks will constantly mystify me.
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So I realized after a bit that everything added (Aquatic base form and all evolutions) from UM is omited from Unchained. Was wondering what the stance is on this, as some pretty flavorful options there, partularly the Minor/Major/Ultimate magic evolutions. Obviously some of the decision was a space constrant, but I am curious about other factors, especially since it's just a blanket ommision. Was it just space or did the evolutions not meet certain standards to imediately be worth salvaging?
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I just want a summoner with subtypes not connected directly to the planes or with alignment restrictions, some base base forms or some such.
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Is anyone else surprised the summoner still has the crazy good summoning spell-like ability?
The summoning is like having 6+ extra spells of your highest level. The Unchained changes seem to just move the summoner from OMFGWTF broken to *merely* broketastic.
I had a summoner in my game and even with the eidolon sidelined it was still powerful due to the ability to just spam mobs. Assuming an average 4 fight day you can summon 1 1/2 times per fight (at 1st level, and more at higher levels). And they last for minutes so you can sometimes overlap between fights.
Summoning is an overly good spell, being flexible due to the choices of monsters. It's effective at damage, crowd control, and tanking. Sometimes all at once. Damage inflicted on summoned creatures is largely wasted, since it's damage that doesn't need to be healed.
I don't think it's a bad or inherently broken power, but just has too many uses. 3 + Cha means you quickly go from 6 to 8 to 10+ uses.
So I realized after a bit that everything added (Aquatic base form and all evolutions) from UM is omited from Unchained. Was wondering what the stance is on this, as some pretty flavorful options there, partularly the Minor/Major/Ultimate magic evolutions. Obviously some of the decision was a space constrant, but I am curious about other factors, especially since it's just a blanket ommision. Was it just space or did the evolutions not meet certain standards to imediately be worth salvaging?
In the case of individual evolutions i could imagine that they are supposed to still be usable without change, but the aquatic base form does not at all fit into the new system, as it would need to be tied to the outsider types an then have some base evolutions attributed in each case.
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My beef with Unchained Summoner is that the eidolon outsider types seem to be a helter-skelter cherry pick with no rhyme nor reason to the type.
It's not a "one of each alignment" set nor a "only outsider types from Beastiary 1." It's "a little this, a little that" that doesn't cover all outsider races.
Want to make a kyton or oni based eidolon? Aeon? Well, you're SOL...