So, in the race building section for advanced races guide, there are several types of damage reduction one can take for their race. The question I have revolves around the combination of the Fey DR and the Moon-Touched DR, seen below.
Fey Damage Resistance
Prerequisite: Fey Racial Type
Description: Members of this race gain DR 5/cold iron.
Moon-Touched Damage Resistance
Prerequisite: None
Description: Members of this race gain DR 5/silver.
The question I have for this is, would it be then be okay to take both of these to make the race's Damage Resistance DR 5/cold iron AND silver? I know nothing states otherwise as far as I can see, but other than having a +3 weapon, I can't see overcoming both of these. I mean, as far as I know you can't forge a blade of alchemical silver AND cold iron. Not to mention, this would completely make the standard damage reduction in the racial defensive traits section entirely useless. If a +1 magical weapon overcomes DR 5/magic, then theoretically making a Fey who just happens to have both of these DR types would make the standard DR types pointless.
So... To wind down this big rant to a simplified question... Has there been some form of errata made to correct this? Or is there something I legitimately missed here that would not allow this in the first place?
Thanks so much!
- S.N. Rivers
You get the same thing with fey vampires and lycanthropes.
You get the same thing with fey vampires and lycanthropes.
So this is legitimate then? I ask just to be sure that I wouldn't be exploiting the system here in making such a race.
I believe a cold iron weapon with a silver weapon blanch or vice versa would do the trick.
Generally speaking multiple DRs don't stack in that way. When you have DR 5/piercing and then get DR 5/bashing it doesn't become DR 5/bashing and piercing. It just means when you get attacked by a weapon, check the type to see if have protection.
Having 2 DRs is nice, having a DR that needs 2 conditions is extremely more effective and "worth" more balance wise.
Unless otherwise stated, gaining 2 forms of DR just means you have two forms of DR and you can use the most advantageous whenever it comes into play. There would be very specific wording if a DR were to "merge" in such a way as you are asking.
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Having DR 5/piercing and DR 5/bludgeoning is exactly the same as having DR 5/bludgeoning and piercing. It does not become DR 5/bludgeoning or piercing.
Generally speaking multiple DRs don't stack in that way. When you have DR 5/piercing and then get DR 5/bashing it doesn't become DR 5/bashing and piercing. It just means when you get attacked by a weapon, check the type to see if have protection.
Having 2 DRs is nice, having a DR that needs 2 conditions is extremely more effective and "worth" more balance wise.
Unless otherwise stated, gaining 2 forms of DR just means you have two forms of DR and you can use the most advantageous whenever it comes into play. There would be very specific wording if a DR were to "merge" in such a way as you are asking.
In this sense though, what you're describing comes out to the same thing. Using whichever is most advantageous is, in this case, the same as joining them. Because if you can overcome cold iron with your weapon, that means the race would use the more advantageous DR. Which in this case would be silver. And if you were to use silver, the race would use the cold iron as advantageous DR.
And magic weapons don't count as bypassing silver or cold iron. So... For all effective purposes, the race would indeed be treated as if they had DR 5/ cold iron and silver. But I do see what you're saying. In some cases you get DR in the sense of DR 5/Bludgeoning OR Magic. And in that case either one can bypass the DR.
But to my knowledge or descriptors for DR come from the same source for the DR while and descriptors come from different and completely separate sources. Which is why I'm guessing DR 5/cold iron with DR 5/silver cost a total of 6 RP when both are taken while DR 10/magic is also 6 RP. The value of the DR is doubled, but only one thing bypasses it. Thus making it equal in power and balancing it out.
Anyway, didn't mean to discredit what you were saying. I apologize if it came across that way. But this is why I was curious if both could be taken in a single creature at racial creation. I know they can both be acquired by having a race start with one, then getting a template that has the other. But at racial creation, I was unaware if this loophole had been corrected or addressed yet or if it was intentionally allowed.
Having DR 5/piercing and DR 5/bludgeoning is exactly the same as having DR 5/bludgeoning and piercing. It does not become DR 5/bludgeoning or piercing.
Just out of curiosity, how does one determine whether DR of two types is and or or based DR? It was my understanding that if the DR came from two separate sources, it would become an and based form of DR joining the two together. But if it came from a specified source of two existing DR types in a single package it would be DR of the or variety.
You seem knowledgeable in this area. Is this true? Or is there a different way of determining this?
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Adding two together always produces 'and'.
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Having DR 5/piercing and DR 5/bludgeoning is exactly the same as having DR 5/bludgeoning and piercing. It does not become DR 5/bludgeoning or piercing.Just out of curiosity, how does one determine whether DR of two types is and or or based DR? It was my understanding that if the DR came from two separate sources, it would become an and based form of DR joining the two together. But if it came from a specified source of two existing DR types in a single package it would be DR of the or variety.
You seem knowledgeable in this area. Is this true? Or is there a different way of determining this?
You have DR 5/piercing and DR 5/slashing. The highest applies. If they are using a piercing weapon to bypass DR 5/piercing, then the slashing DR applies. If they have a slashing weapon to bypass your slashing DR, then the piercing DR applies. They are two separate, non-stacking abilities, but if you can't use one then you can use the other. You now essentially have DR 5/piercing and slashing.
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Ninja'd! Leaving this anyway.
Adding two together always produces 'and'.
This is entirely correct.
The reason is deceptively simple: you aren't actually in possession of DR 5/cold iron and silver, but rather DR 5/cold iron and DR 5/silver.
Thus, a weapon strikes and checks for both DRs: first one (either, but let's say alphabetical "is it cold iron?"), and second the other ("is it silver?").
This is the same as a fiendish lich (template entry, for reference).
A lich has DR 15/bludgeoning and magic. Thus, unless a weapon is magic and bludgeoning it is reduced by 15.
A fiendish lich (being at least 11th level) has DR 10/good. Thus, unless a weapon is good, it is reduced by 10.
Looking at Damage Reduction, Damage Reduction, Damage Reduction, special materials, and alchemcial creations will get us pretty much all of our answers.
The second one and the last one will be the most helpful, I think.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
So, for most purposes, weapon attacks are going to be reduced by 15 damage. If the weapon is bludgeoning and magical, it'll be reduced by 10 damage instead. If the weapon is good... it'll be reduced by 15 damage. If it's good and bludgeoning and magical or just a +5, then it won't be reduced at all.
Your situation is the same - you've two sources of DR. It checks for each individually.
So, for most purposes, weapon attacks are going to be reduced by 5 damage. If the weapon is (let's say) cold iron, it'll be reduced by... 5 damage instead. If the weapon is silver... it'll be reduced by 5 damage. If it's cold iron and silver or just a +3 or better, then it won't be reduced at all.
If you want to go about bypassing it entirely, weapon blanch would be your best bet - a cold iron weapon with silver blanch, or a silver weapon with cold iron blanch is all it takes.
Going back to special materials, it's likely a silver weapon with cold iron blanch would be most cost-effective for a single battle, but a cold iron weapon with silver blanch will be more cost effective in the long run.
Hope that helps!
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Thank you everyone for your very clear and decisive explanations! This was extremely helpful and very insightful. I appreciate all of the commentary. Especially Tacticslion! Your links were helpful references for sure!
- S.N. Rivers
Looking at this now I have a question to clarify what I just read. PCs encounter a werewolf, this creature has DR 10/silver, I know that with non-silver and non-magical weapons the creature ignores the first 10 points of damage ffrom a source. Now based on the table for overcoming damage reduction, if the group is not in possesion of a silver or a +3 or greater weapon, the DR is still effective?
Example: Fighter 1 with normal weapon deals 12 points of damage, wolf takes 2
Fighter 2 deals 8 points of damage from a silver weapon and wolf takes all 8
Fighter 3 deal 13 points with a +1 weapon and wolf take only 3?
Fighter 4 deals 14 points with a +2 weapon and wolf takes only 4?
and fighter 5 with his +3 weapon deals normal (full) damage?
Yes, that is correct.
Awesome thanks :-)
Sorry but one more, if critter has DR and someone attacks said critter and damage is not enough to hurt it, what would happen if there were other parts? example:
Zombie is standing guard at a door and rogue comes up for a sneak attack with a piercing weapon, since zombie has a DR5/slashing, the piercing weapon is not going to be as effective, assume rogue deals 4 damage (zombie does not even notice) SA kicks in for (let's say) 2D6, dealing 7 more points. Does the zombie ignore the whole things since the initial attack did not penetrate (therefore negating the additional damage) or is this treated as other damage independant of the initial damage?
What I see then is that two rogues with normal weapons beating the crap out of poor wolfie (from example above) by flanking and juking it with daggers and dealing SA damage over and over, even though the weapons themselves are ineffective (if option 2 above is correct).
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Riders do not activate if the damage needed to attach them does not beat DR. The most common form of this is poison. If you are attacked by a poisoned weapon (or a creature with poison), and that poison is injury based, then you must take at least one point of damage before the "rider" (poison) can affect you.
Sneak Attack USED to be like this in 3.0 (and maybe 3.5 as well) but has since been changed in Pathfinder to simply be increased damage as long as certain conditions are met, and so that damage is added to weapon damage before reducing for DR. Furthermore, sneak attack damage is always of the same type as the weapon used to deliver it (sneak attack with a ray of frost is cold damage, for example).
EDIT: So in your example, the rogue would deal 11-5=6 damage to the zombie, not zero.
After I posted I saw a few others on this as well, personally I don't like it. I always treated SA as a weapon penetrating the body and striking vital orgns inside therefore delivering more damage. It is kind of wierd that before the weapon even penetrates a critter it already does damage :-(
Like the example with the werewolf, if you are using a normal dagger which will not penetrate the skin of the critter due to its DR 10/silver, I find it that because you plan on punturing the spleen that it now can penetrate the skin and get to the juicy parts inside.
I know I can always rule 0 this in my games if I want, but just find it ironic that a rogue can penetrate the skin of a critter that is almost toatlly immune to that type of damage (as in the example with a dagger and a +2 strength).
Just my opinion, even though rules say otherwise :-)
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Yeah, but they have to be up close and personal with specific conditions for it to happen. There are drawbacks. Essentially they are using the weapon in such a specific way that it deals more damage, if you need a reason to wrap your head around.
About the only thing that regularly totally ignores DR class ability wise, is the Smite from a paladin.
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After I posted I saw a few others on this as well, personally I don't like it. I always treated SA as a weapon penetrating the body and striking vital orgns inside therefore delivering more damage. It is kind of wierd that before the weapon even penetrates a critter it already does damage :-(
Like the example with the werewolf, if you are using a normal dagger which will not penetrate the skin of the critter due to its DR 10/silver, I find it that because you plan on punturing the spleen that it now can penetrate the skin and get to the juicy parts inside.
I know I can always rule 0 this in my games if I want, but just find it ironic that a rogue can penetrate the skin of a critter that is almost toatlly immune to that type of damage (as in the example with a dagger and a +2 strength).
Just my opinion, even though rules say otherwise :-)
Even in folklore, damage reduction didn't always mean that you literally couldn't break the skin, it just normally meant that the wound was far less serious to that creature. For instance bullets didn't bounce off of werewolves in folklore, they just healed so incredibly fast that it made no difference. Off tangent, they were also immune energy damage in folklore, which they are not in PF. Anyway, the DR issue is further supported by the Universal Monster rule entry:
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
So we see that a character with sneak attack just knows more effective ways of dealing damage to things with anatomies, and doesn't break the fact that those attacks are just less serious to certain things.
As far as other riders, the case can be made that if you don't penetrate DR with a poisoned weapon, the wound is healed so fast that the poison literally has no time to make it into the bloodstream, and is therefore ineffective.