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Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.
I've got my own build, centered around a Mounted Fury Barbarian w/ Boon Companion/Monstrous Mount (Griffon)/Monstrous Mount Mastery, and Greater Blind-Fight + Keen Scent. Add in all the expected Superstition, Witch Hunter, etcs.
But, I'm looking for any ideas people have to try and defeat spellcasters with some sense of reliability.
I imagine Flash Damage is one of the best, by attempting to have massive damage, and a huge initiative, but I'd like to see if we can generate ideas that work past round 1, after the mage has somehow survived the first hit.
So, any ideas for surviving: Touch spells (Melee or range), Invisibility, Flight, Teleportation, Save or Sucks, etc.
My barb turned out okay by the standard my group games at, but I'd like to hear other ideas, because I've always been so enamoured with the idea of a magic-less warrior against the magical. (Batman amongst the justice league is the best comparison)
Remember, my only additional request is: No magical abilities what so ever. I don't like to consider magical items as part of builds as well, so let's not assume a character automatically has and relies on an Agile weapon, for example.
Multiclassing is cool, of course.
How about a fighter with the brawler and eldritch guardian archetypes?
Brawler is extremely useful against magic users. They specialize in locking down opponents- combining stand still feat with the no escape ability, they can make a maneuver could potentially stop any attempt to get away from them (and they eventually get a hefty bonus to that maneuver- enough that they can consider locking down beefier enemies as well). That forces the squishy casters to stick around for a no holds barred beat down and the brawler smacks them up side the head any time they start doing jazz hands
Their menacing stance also seriously ramps up the difficulty of concentration checks and even technically lowers melee touch spells (since it also lowers attack rolls of adjacent enemies).
The eldritch guardian is also chosen to pair with this because it has a much better version of bravery (which also works against mind affecting will saves). The familiar (which is an EX ability, just for the purposes of this challenge) gets all the combat feats you do, which can lead to interesting shenanigans with teamwork feats or maneuver builds. A nice fox with the mauler archetype could be a fairly strong ally (it gets up to medium and can have a decent strength score), and it boosts reflex saves to boot.
Also a note for brawler- you can TWF while staying as a strength build without too many problems on a decent point buy. You only need a starting dex of 16, and then to put your 4th level ability score increase into dex. That qualifies you for all the good TWF feats. A 2 level dip into the brawler class is also advisable, since the unique nature of brawler's flurry lets you take TWF feats as normal to scale it up, but also lets you flurry with a single weapon, perhaps even 2 handed (bayonets for example- that could get you 1.5x power attack). Using only a single weapon saves you a lot on price when it comes time for enhancement.
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Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.
That's like asking for someone with no ability to do anything of consequence, to be good against someone who can tell reality to sit down while the adults are talking. In a word, this concept simply is not possible unless "skilled at beating magic users" is reduced to something that doesn't at all suit the concept.
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That's like asking for someone with no ability to do anything of consequence, to be good against someone who can tell reality to sit down while the adults are talking. In a word, this concept simply is not possible unless "skilled at beating magic users" is reduced to something that doesn't at all suit the concept.Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.
thats what the level 15 wizard at my table thought until the rogue not only snuck up on him, but ended him in one turn.
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thats what the level 15 wizard at my table thought until the rogue not only snuck up on him, but ended him in one turn.That's like asking for someone with no ability to do anything of consequence, to be good against someone who can tell reality to sit down while the adults are talking. In a word, this concept simply is not possible unless "skilled at beating magic users" is reduced to something that doesn't at all suit the concept.Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.
Anecdotes anecdotes oh lolly anecdotes!
In practice most "anti-mage" organizations would be a smoldering crater and solo assailents are pretty vulnerable to divinations.
But seriously, dying in one turn is embarrassing. What an awful wizard that guy must have been.
thats what the level 15 wizard at my table thought until the rogue not only snuck up on him, but ended him in one turn.That's like asking for someone with no ability to do anything of consequence, to be good against someone who can tell reality to sit down while the adults are talking. In a word, this concept simply is not possible unless "skilled at beating magic users" is reduced to something that doesn't at all suit the concept.Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.
How? No Wizard at level 15 sleeps somewhere they can be attacked. Especially not somewhere someone with no SLAs, SU abilities, or spells can get.
thats what the level 15 wizard at my table thought until the rogue not only snuck up on him, but ended him in one turn.That's like asking for someone with no ability to do anything of consequence, to be good against someone who can tell reality to sit down while the adults are talking. In a word, this concept simply is not possible unless "skilled at beating magic users" is reduced to something that doesn't at all suit the concept.Hey guys, I'm looking to make a Martial only character (No Su, SP or Spells) who is skilled at defeating magic users.
That does not prove that what the OP wants can be done. Killing one caster is not the same as being good at killing casters.
This concept is not something that I really expect to be able to happen.
Wiz/sorc at higher levels no reason to not have arcane sight up. "Oh look a magical aura is coming my way". Now as a GM I would not have it on every caster just to have some variety, but even then just sneaking up on a high level caster is not going to be easy, and barring a lot of crits they can take at least one full round worth of attacks and still be alive.
Druid/clerics-can have high perception checks, and among other things, and take the hit. Then kill the rogue in combat.
I appreciate the effort some of you are putting into this experiment, and look forward to any others coming in ^_^
Let's assume we're not trying to kill the greatest mages in the world. Lvl 10 ish will do.
Even at 10 it is not easy. They can still take a full round worth of attacks, which beings me back to the point of how did Rorek's sample rogue move up to the caster, and still get a full round attack?
How did this caster not make a DC 20 perception check to notice someone invisible was nearby?
etc etc... more questions, but I don't want to derail the thread so I will suggest to the OP that he be ready to use some magic if he wants this to work.
So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
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Let's assume we're not trying to kill the greatest mages in the world. Lvl 10 ish will do.Even at 10 it is not easy. They can still take a full round worth of attacks, which beings me back to the point of how did Rorek's sample rogue move up to the caster, and still get a full round attack?
How did this caster not make a DC 20 perception check to notice someone invisible was nearby?
etc etc... more questions, but I don't want to derail the thread so I will suggest to the OP that he be ready to use some magic if he wants this to work.
may I introduce you to crippling strike? not gonna be doing anything when you can't even move ya lips at str 0.
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So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
on that note, IMO the best "martial" type to take on a mage is an archer. Full round of shooting in the face son. no need to close.
get them mythic tiers
Sorry, the title made me do this.
Thanks Jiggles, I haven't read that far in, and now I have incentive to do so.
To rorek; I thought about archer; it could work, but fickle wind spell could be cast to screw you up; so having a back up plan of equal effectiveness would be important. That's why my original build included a flying mount with Animal Companion.
However; an Archer spell-less ranger with the flying mount could be the start
I'd say relying on Mythic to overcome non-mythic isn't really fair to the argument
on that note, IMO the best "martial" type to take on a mage is an archer. Full round of shooting in the face son. no need to close.So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
there are so many ways to stop arrows... hell, silent image a curtain around your square for 50% miss chance.
I'd say relying on Mythic to overcome non-mythic isn't really fair to the argument
was a joke
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there are so many ways to stop arrows... hell, silent image a curtain around your square for 50% miss chance.on that note, IMO the best "martial" type to take on a mage is an archer. Full round of shooting in the face son. no need to close.So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
again, the point is to not let them go first. you gotta go first. either by surprise round or some other way.
I'd say relying on Mythic to overcome non-mythic isn't really fair to the argumentwas a joke
Sorry man; I thought you were being flippant
Sorry man; I thought you were being flippantI'd say relying on Mythic to overcome non-mythic isn't really fair to the argumentwas a joke
Poe's Law strikes again
again, the point is to not let them go first. you gotta go first. either by surprise round or some other way.there are so many ways to stop arrows... hell, silent image a curtain around your square for 50% miss chance.on that note, IMO the best "martial" type to take on a mage is an archer. Full round of shooting in the face son. no need to close.So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
even then, you might not kill them in 1 round and there can always be more than 1.
just trying to point out, archery works as well as what the OP already has (alpha strike capability) he's looking for something that can counter the caster's tactics. and melee is WAY better at that.
Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
How? No Wizard at level 15 sleeps somewhere they can be attacked. Especially not somewhere someone with no SLAs, SU abilities, or spells can get.
Just because it says Intelligence 20+ on the character sheet doesn't mean the player behind the character is that bright...
Im actually super interested in a martial class hard wired to be super anti-magic. Reactive Counterspells(BAB acting as their Caster Level for that purpose), Stalwart and Evasion are musts, immunity to Divinations...
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Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
You can't rely on AoO from casting a spell, the DC to cast one without provoking is 15+spell level. at level 10, that is an easy check.
Im actually super interested in a martial class hard wired to be super anti-magic. Reactive Counterspells(BAB acting as their Caster Level for that purpose), Stalwart and Evasion are musts, immunity to Divinations...
That's great! There has to be SOME examples, out of the 11 or so Ex only classes (including archetypes to get things like Monk and Ranger in there), who can mix and match features to challenge a spell caster
How do you overcome Flight, Invisibility, Save or Sucks like Baleful polymorph, etc.
Yes, there are some impossibilities like Simulacrum spamming wzards in their personal pocket dimension, but thats like if Batman has to fight Darkseid; he THEN has to get Superman to help him.
But, not every caster is Darkseid, so more often then not, Batman should be able to take on a seemingly more powerful enemy.
That's the essence I'm trying to capture
Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
You can't rely on AoO from casting a spell, the DC to cast one without provoking is 15+spell level. at level 10, that is an easy check.
Exactly! So, what's the next necessary step to consider? I cannot stop his spell; so how do I survive it? High Saves? Readying an action instead of relying on an opp attack? What comes AFTER step one has failed.
Plus; you know the character who can do all of this, will probably become an iconic legend in the whole of a game world.
Just saying; bragging rights are here for the claiming.
Im actually super interested in a martial class hard wired to be super anti-magic. Reactive Counterspells(BAB acting as their Caster Level for that purpose), Stalwart and Evasion are musts, immunity to Divinations...That's great! There has to be SOME examples, out of the 11 or so Ex only classes (including archetypes to get things like Monk and Ranger in there), who can mix and match features to challenge a spell caster
How do you overcome Flight, Invisibility, Save or Sucks like Baleful polymorph, etc.
The short answer sadly is that there isn't really a class that does that.
Eventually they get bogged down pretty hard by all the spells that come with rider effects that land even if you save like Icy Prison. This is also one of the biggest problems with some spells actually. Suffocation for example staggers you anyways...or it f@%*ing kills you.
Monks get some pseudo magical abilities so I don't feel like they really fit the image.
Barbarians come close with Spell Sunder but even they lack abilities to deal with say...
An Invisible, Mindblanked, Flying [Insert Caster Here]
Inquisitor make the best Anti-Mages since their toolkit is pretty versatile and there's a whole archetype dedicated to it. It just ultimately loses out to Casters due to the dichotomy of the game.
Our prospective Mageslayer is going to kill the mage with his weapon right? Unless using a Bow(Which promptly gets countered by magic), he'll never reach melee without magical support.
Let's try it from another angle:
What IS spell casting combat comprised of? Save spells, touch spells at melee or range, terrain modification, summoning, etc.
Then, there are the components of spell casting itself; V, S, M, concentration checks, etc.
For example, I imagine this; an enemy starts casting hold person on me; and I get an opp attack. My answer? I disarm his material component. Even if I didn't build towards disarming, I don't have much to fear from HIS opp attk vs me.
You can't rely on AoO from casting a spell, the DC to cast one without provoking is 15+spell level. at level 10, that is an easy check.
ready an action to attack the caster if he attempts to cast a spell... (only if the GM is going to allow it to then add the damage to the DC of the concentration check)
How do you overcome Flight, Invisibility, Save or Sucks like Baleful polymorph, etc.
flying mount or wings, high perception (DC 20 or something to guess what square he is in), as many rerolls as you can get on any will or fortitude saves.
Actually; for an invisible mindblanked flying Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc
I'd use my Superstitious Mounted Fury Barbarian on a Griffon with javelins, a Lance; Keen Scent from rage powers, and Improved Blind-fight.
Hopefully, I'd roll high on one of his save spells he uses, or be able to dodge a touch spell he throws at me, and in the next round, engage him.
so the rules are-
take on wizards/ insert arcane caster herewith- no magic items, no SLA, Su abilities, or any ability that doesn't function in anti-magic barriers,
I say, buy armor, have stone of permanent anti-magic barrier, place stone in armor, place armor on fighter. haha
Called minions instead of summoned ones. Animated Undead @_@
If I had a permanent item that generates anti-magic, that's like laughing at it all. X)
That would probably be the one magic item a true mage hater would use, but let's say I don't have access to it.
there's also probably some alchemical items that are uniquely situated for some of these circumstances.
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the BEST way to fight magic users as a martial is, the way batman does it. Study, stealth, and then end it quickly.
If you can catch a wizard off guard (wizards don't go around most normal days with half the spells people are throwing around, they have spells that would help their planned activities for that day, ofc they would usually pack a COUPLE defensive spells.)
the biggest thing is taking them by surprise, you let a wizard get even half-prepared and you are not going to have a good day.
the BEST way to fight magic users as a martial is, the way batman does it. Study, stealth, and then end it quickly.
If you can catch a wizard off guard (wizards don't go around most normal days with half the spells people are throwing around, they have spells that would help their planned activities for that day, ofc they would usually pack a COUPLE defensive spells.)
the biggest thing is taking them by surprise, you let a wizard get even half-prepared and you are not going to have a good day.
this is more "how can i deal with random spell casters trying to kill me because i'm in their dungeon" than hunting down specific wizards.
To all above;
Obviously, a reliance of magic items is built into pathfinder, so that right there is a crippling disadvantage.
We can only assume that a player using this proposed build WOULD make an exeception for his +5 sword, armor w/ spell resistance, and cloak of resistance. But, Massive Bonus Points for someone who can do it without all that.
Let's also not down play the advantage of being Neutral to avoid detection spells, and sneaky to avoid being noticed/acknowledged as a threat.
Actually; for an invisible mindblanked flying Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc
I'd use my Superstitious Mounted Fury Barbarian on a Griffon with javelins, a Lance; Keen Scent from rage powers, and Improved Blind-fight.
Hopefully, I'd roll high on one of his save spells he uses, or be able to dodge a touch spell he throws at me, and in the next round, engage him.
Scent is no good =(
30 foot range. Move action to detect what direction he is(No specification of exactly how far unless within 5 feet).
Good call on Scent; It'll involve moving around to try and find him repeatly; which will likely result in being kitted to death.
Still, I refuse to give up!
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this is more "how can i deal with random spell casters trying to kill me because i'm in their dungeon" than hunting down specific wizards.the BEST way to fight magic users as a martial is, the way batman does it. Study, stealth, and then end it quickly.
If you can catch a wizard off guard (wizards don't go around most normal days with half the spells people are throwing around, they have spells that would help their planned activities for that day, ofc they would usually pack a COUPLE defensive spells.)
the biggest thing is taking them by surprise, you let a wizard get even half-prepared and you are not going to have a good day.
even then, that wizard most likely wasn't expecting a random group of adventures to come waltzing in. If he was, you are in trouble already and you probably wont have to worry about the wizard.
If the wizard knows you are coming, you're screwed unless you can make every darn save he throws at you.
also, in a dungeon you have friends, friends give you benefits, use them. If its 1v1.. why are you in a dungeon alone? you are not the dragonborn!
to be slightly more constructive.. stealth is still key. Get into the wizards main room without him knowing if at all possible.
that aside, I don't have much input. I'll keep thinking though.
(actually, this Ioun stone here would help alot, and I wouldn't fight a wizard/mage without it (I almost always have one by level 13ish)- Mage bane Ioun stone!
So...what if we aim towards a character type that can survive past round one. Suspicion raging barbarian comes to mind.
As for closing the gap with casters; what if you came across as just a simple warrior minion. If your equipment wasn't magical, it's wouldn't show up to arcane sight. (Originally, I was willing to go with magic items being allowed, as pathfinder has made them necessary, but the goal remained all class features/race features be Ex.)
If you were disguised, and had bluff, you could close with a spell caster who assumes your a servant.
Lets get creative, even if the other camp is just trying to shut down the idea it help prompt the thinking
I thought that was SU, but it is EX. I think this is the best chance he has, but even high saves will not make someone a caster-killer. If he had spell sunder that would be even better, but that is SU.
There is no "other" camp. These types of discussion are things that are common. If a character does not have magical equipment surviving is difficult in this game, even when not facing a caster.
I don't think he is foregoing magic items however, just innate magical abilities.
Of course a lot of this also depends on his GM. If his GM is going to help him by setting casters up to fail then this can work better, but if he runs them strategy wise, in an optimal manner, this is hard to do.
Now of course he will be with a party, but then we have to ask how much of this "caster killing" does he want to come directly from him. Would he be satisfied if the party cleric cast silence on the opposing caster to shut down spells so he could get the kill, or does he really want to be able to say his character can do this without any help?
Admittedly when I first read it I assumed he wanted to be able to solo the caster, but he might just want the kill.
may I introduce you to crippling strike? not gonna be doing anything when you can't even move ya lips at str 0.Let's assume we're not trying to kill the greatest mages in the world. Lvl 10 ish will do.Even at 10 it is not easy. They can still take a full round worth of attacks, which beings me back to the point of how did Rorek's sample rogue move up to the caster, and still get a full round attack?
How did this caster not make a DC 20 perception check to notice someone invisible was nearby?
etc etc... more questions, but I don't want to derail the thread so I will suggest to the OP that he be ready to use some magic if he wants this to work.
You are assuming all of the attacks will hit, and that the caster will be weak.
Let's just cut to the chase and you can explain how this rogue pulled this off. It might even help the OP, since I don't think every caster he goes against will be played to its full potential.