Help me plan out a Gestalt character.

[rungok]

I was wanting to plan a gestalt character for an upcoming game.
25 point buy, I want one of the classes to be a Card Caster Magus. That's an archetype that specializes in imbuing spells into playing or harrow cards and flinging them for damage ala gambit style.

But I don't know what other class to choose. I was looking at Rogue. If at level 10, I could throw a card with an intensified snowball on it to a target within 30 feet, and do (1D2... meh) +10D6 cold damage +5D6 SA damage. If I choose the right feats/spells properly, I could be doing lots of cards with lots of nasty spell effects. (an abundant ammunition spell makes keeping the cards really easy)

But I'm not sure if I should do rogue or perhaps instead fighter/ranger for the bonus feats/combat style/ BAB hike.

I would appreciate some build optimization advice here to make the best use of the cardcaster magus.

[haremlord]

Do both. Slayer gets sneak and can choose the thrown weapon combat style (and gets the BAB).

[The Dragon]

Slayer isn't a bad idea. However, if you have the ability to deliver touch attacks at range with spell combat, I'd entertain the thought of a bad touch cleric.

Just something to think on. You don't actually need an all that high int for magus, just saying.

[thunderbeard]

"Bad touch cleric." Heh. Yeah, slayer gets you full bab and the feats you want. It also gives a Poison Use option, which is real useful with Abundant Ammo.

[Dafydd]

Slayer +1

Studied, Sneak Attack, Talents, Full BaB, All good Saves, 6+INT Skills.

Bad touch cleric could also be fun, but my vote is still Slayer.

[kestral287]

The Dragon wrote:

Slayer isn't a bad idea. However, if you have the ability to deliver touch attacks at range with spell combat, I'd entertain the thought of a bad touch cleric.

Just something to think on. You don't actually need an all that high int for magus, just saying.

Spellstrike. Card Caster doesn't get ranged Spell Combat barring houserules. This is as dumb as it sounds.

I'm going to go off the wall and suggest Bloodrager though.

[thunderbeard]

Bloodrager can't cast magus spells while raging, and can't cast spellstrike with non-magus spells...

[kestral287]

Broad Study Magus Arcana, Mad Magic feat. Both problems solved.

The reason I say Bloodrager is because you're going to need to invest in a Belt of Hurling (or whatever it's called; the Str-to-attack with thrown weapons one) and that will impede your abilities to get a physical stat bonus. Bloodrager grants that, on top of being a full-BAB and effectively extending your spell slots a bit.

[thunderbeard]

You really, really, really don't need to. Just get the arcana that lets you use a swashbuckler's Precise Strike, ignore Str for Dex, and watch your damage soar far higher.

[kestral287]

While a Precise Strike martial can keep up with a non-Precise Strike martial doing something like two-hand power attacking, it relies on them having equivalent stats. Baseline, you don't.

You also only have one attack per round, unless there are houserules that haven't been mentioned. At level twenty? +20 damage off Precise Strike, call it a fully boosted Snowball for 60+5D6 damage, let's assume Str 10 is it being 'ignored' so no negative, a card with Bane applied is an average of 9.5 damage...

How confident are we that 80+7D6+1D4=107.5 damage, Fort save vs. Stagger and/or Daze, is viable compared to the Barbarian's five-plus attacks per round?

EDIT: Gestalt, so let's add in Slayer stuff. Figure you can go Invisible to Sneak Attack, so +21, and +5 damage off Studied Target. We're up to 133.5

[Skyler Malik]

I think if you want to do Card Caster Magus, gestalt it with Cartomancer Witch. turns your harrow deck into a familiar, at third level they can't be destroyed and they return to you. Not to mention you can utilize the hexes to your benefit and it gives you versatility.

[rungok]

Skyler Malik wrote:

I think if you want to do Card Caster Magus, gestalt it with Cartomancer Witch. turns your harrow deck into a familiar, at third level they can't be destroyed and they return to you. Not to mention you can utilize the hexes to your benefit and it gives you versatility.

That's an interesting combination.

[boring7]

Cardcaster Magus already gets full BAB so Slayer isn't necessary, Vivisectionist Alchemist gets full Sneak Attack and lots of alchemist magic. Not to mention you lonly lose 2 skill points a level.

In theory the Trapbreaker archetype also stacks, so you can find and disable traps.

The Cartomancer witch is probably more easily thematic, you have magic cards, you make them more magic. In fact, you could probably do Cartomancer INSTEAD of cardcaster magus and use your other half for something big and durable, like Urban Barbarian. +4 dex and the moment of clarity rage power is pretty hard to kill and can still cast if he needs to.

[kestral287]

Cardcaster does not have full BAB. It's 3/4ths.

[boring7]

Ah.

Tougher call then, Slayer is definitely better with "I can hit things," but spells are usually touch AC, and slayer does lose SA progression.

[kestral287]

Cardcaster is not going to be aiming at touch AC. He's going to be tossing a thrown weapon at regular AC and adding a spell like Snowball onto that attack.

[nate lange]

I like the Cardcaster/Cartomancer combo (a lot) but IMHO swashbuckler really maybe the way to go...

take the Inspired Blade archetype to increase Int synergy. This gives you d10 hp, all good saves, full BAB, and a strong option for melee combat. add the fencing grace feat (which the class meets all of the requirements for automatically) and your a solid switch-hitter; plus the rapier will let you actually use spell combat and spell strike. skill points are only 4+Int, but all around it would be a very solid build.

if you're willing to be flexible on Cardcaster... a slayer/cartomancer witch might be even better... d10 hp, all good saves, full BAB, and 6+Int skills; hexes are a nearly limitless resources and you'd get more spells per day, plus you get studied target, sneak attack, and slayer talents... the action economy isn't quite as good, and you'd have to put some more effort into switch hitting but it's another solid option to consider...

[kestral287]

nate lange wrote:

This gives you d10 hp, all good saves, full BAB, and a strong option for melee combat. add the fencing grace feat (which the class meets all of the requirements for automatically) and your a solid switch-hitter; plus the rapier will let you actually use spell combat and spell strike.

Not quite. For the Card Caster, Spell Combat can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons, while Harrowed Spellstrike only works with thrown ranged weapons.

Unless Card Caster is modified to get a functional version of Spell Combat with their thrown weapons, Slayer//Cartomancer probably is a stronger option overall. The only major problem is that it's going to be a pain for the Slayer to set up Sneak Attack. Ranged combat doesn't cater to it, and you don't have the Card Caster's option of setting up Greater Invisibility.

[nate lange]

kestral287 wrote:

Not quite. For the Card Caster, Spell Combat can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons, while Harrowed Spellstrike only works with thrown ranged weapons.

I think I was unclear about my point... the card caster can only benefit from both spell combat and spellstrike if he's a switch hitter (since one only works with melee weapons and the other with ranged)... I didn't mean that he'd be able to combine them like a normal magus, just that (unlike most Cardcasters) he would actually have opportunities to use both.

[rungok]

Hmm... Cartomancer/Slayer would be pretty sweet too. That actually might be better. The only other option would be to take kensai cardcaster magus/cartomancer witch but it just doesn't gel well. Unless cards also count as a slashing weapon if used in melee. (like that character in hellsing before he tried to duke it out with alucard.)

I realized that the 3rd level ability also lets me deliver touch spells with a thrown card... would that also apply to touch hexes?

I was thinking of mixing cartomancer/slayer and taking Healing as my Patron so I could dole out the harshness/curses and also toss in an emergency healing hex or restoration if it comes up in combat. And with slayer abilities I'd be good at removing foes too.

[Skyler Malik]

theres a major hex called the harrowing curse, which i think you can deliver through the cards

[LoneKnave]

kestral287 wrote:

nate lange wrote:

This gives you d10 hp, all good saves, full BAB, and a strong option for melee combat. add the fencing grace feat (which the class meets all of the requirements for automatically) and your a solid switch-hitter; plus the rapier will let you actually use spell combat and spell strike.

Not quite. For the Card Caster, Spell Combat can only be used with light or one-handed melee weapons, while Harrowed Spellstrike only works with thrown ranged weapons.

Unless Card Caster is modified to get a functional version of Spell Combat with their thrown weapons, Slayer//Cartomancer probably is a stronger option overall. The only major problem is that it's going to be a pain for the Slayer to set up Sneak Attack. Ranged combat doesn't cater to it, and you don't have the Card Caster's option of setting up Greater Invisibility.

You can do 2 things. Either grab the throwing enchant on your rapier, and finish your full attack with throwing it, or you can finish your full round action (with your other hand empty all the time), quickdraw a card/dart and throw that to deliver the spell. Having the Rough and Ready trait for some profession that works with cards (dealer, magician, fortune teller, that guy who plays shell game, etc..) lets you treat your cards as melee weapons too, so you could fight in melee with them as well.

[rungok]

Skyler Malik wrote:

theres a major hex called the harrowing curse, which i think you can deliver through the cards

I checked it out, and yes it can be used as a hex through the cards, and it is a major hex. But when you hit lvl 15 it works as if it was Major Curse instead of just bestow curse.

[Skyler Malik]

So doing the Cardcaster/Cartomancer hybrid gets another big check mark if you are going to mid teens!