What are the merits of choosing one over the other from a mechanical perspective, rather than a "which one will get you chased out of town by villagers with pitchforks" aesthetic perspective?
They're very similar benefit, but it seems like the Tentacle is just plainly superior, albeit not by a wide margin.
Tentacle:
Arm:
Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
So, tentacle's unique benefits are that:
1) It can be anywhere on the body (it says you need magic or bulky clothing to conceal, does that mean having it extend out of your mouth from your throat isn't allowed?) and not just torso.
2) Gives you a weak natural attack w/ Grab that you may or may not ever get much use out of, due to the attacks restrictions.
Arm's benefits are more sketchy or questionably of use...
1) You need it (twice) for Parasitic Twin, while as Tentacle is a pre-req for nothing other than a starring hentai role. That said, PT is pretty underwhelming for a 3 discovery investment... It's basically just a really gimpy version of Slippery Mind you can only use 1/day.
2) Possible benefit in the note, "though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time." If a pair of gloves/gauntlets is considered "one hand magic item" since they only function together. Then you could use a third arm to wear a hand magic item that comes individually, like gauntlet of rust, along with the pair. I suspect this does not fly, however.
So, yeah, pretty evenly matched, but tentacle's easier time hiding / fitting armor and the optional grab for when you need it seem to make it plainly better to me. Am I missing something? Agree? Disagree?
Personally, I think alot of it is fluff.
Either would likely get you run out of town by villagers with torches and pitch forks :)
But for an alchemist I can definately imagine a fully functional hand being far more useful than a tentacle in a laboratory.
It can grab hold pour manipulate objects, hold books turn the pages open doors.
While the tentacle can manage some if not all of those things i really do imagine a hand just being better at it. say, picking a book up off the ground. can the tentacle do it? probably- but I imagine a fingered hand having an easier time of it. Especially if said tentacle lacked any sort of suction cups or smoething to snag it from the floor. (or desk, though it could easily slide it to the edge of the desk and then lift it)
When it comes to reaching into your pack I think the hand would the advantage as well- since it wouldn't have to wrap around something to fetch it out- just get a decent grip on it.
Again just talking fluff here, not mechanics. The mechanics are pretty clear it can do whatever you can normally do- its just difficult to imagine some of it working out terribly effectively.
(sure, the rules say its as good as your hand on those buttons.. but c'mon, really? :P)
-S
So do you think it'd be common for DMs to ignore the RAW and not allow it to manipulate objects as well as a hand?
As it stands now, what attracts me to the alchemist is that I've always liked playing freakshow type characters, so on aesthetics, the tentacle is more appealing to me. As long as it functions just like a hand, I would prefer it, before taking into account the little differences.
I do agree it's odd that it can do anything a 5 digit hand can do. But who am I to question the abilities of a super flexible tentacle?
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Well, it can't hold a weapon like a vestigial arm can (according to RAW), but it can hold anything else. Why not just get all 3, and never have to worry about wasting a move action to draw an item out during combat? Besides, 6 limbs and a tentacle is far more freakish than 4 limbs and a tentacle. The Grab on the tentacle is nice as well.
Feat starvation (Extra Discovery) would be the main reason for not just getting 4 arms and as many tentacles as you want. :)
If they actually gave you more attacks, sure. But just to hold more items for you and look freakish without doing much of anything? Eh...too many other discoveries I want that have actual mechanical benefits.
Main benefit of the tentacle's grab, in my view, is on AoOs, where you normally cannot use the grapple maneuver. Of course, if I did make an Alchemist, the 3rd arm / 1st tentacle would be holding my shield anyway....
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You could use the Vestigial Arm to hold a Heavy Darkwood Shield so you can still bomb, shoot with a bow, etc...
Yeah that's the main benefit I see to the arm over the tentacle, you can wield a shield with it, and still use even a two-handed weapon with your normal arms. I'm about to start using an alchemist/fighter in our current campaign who uses an earth breaker with his main hand and the vestigial arm, and then a spiked shield with his off-hand. Thanks to the two-handed fighter archetype and some shield-bash-related feats, I get double Str damage with the earth breaker and full Str damage with the shield :-D
You could use the Vestigial Arm to hold a Heavy Darkwood Shield so you can still bomb, shoot with a bow, etc...
is there anything in the description of the tentacle that indicates it couldn't do that as well?
(i read your original thread on that tactic, btw. good stuff.)
The main advantage to vestigial arms, I believe, is that it explicitly states that they can wield weapons. There was a thread here a while back discussing vivisectionist builds that suggested using vestigial arms in conjunction with feral mutagen to get 5 attacks per round at level 2. The vestigial arms get the normal iterative attacks, while the extra set of limbs gain claws (along with the bite attack) for 3 natural attacks at -5.
Then there's also people who are trying to figure out if 2 x vestigial arms will let you dual wield 2-handed weapons.
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You could use the Vestigial Arm to hold a Heavy Darkwood Shield so you can still bomb, shoot with a bow, etc...is there anything in the description of the tentacle that indicates it couldn't do that as well?
(i read your original thread on that tactic, btw. good stuff.)
Yeah, re-reading the tentacle discovery it doesn't say that you CAN'T wield weapons with it, it just EXPLICITLY states that you CAN with a vestigial arm. So, sure, use the tentacle to hold a shield. It can stick out of the front of your pants like a disgusting giant penis. LOL
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You could use the Vestigial Arm to hold a Heavy Darkwood Shield so you can still bomb, shoot with a bow, etc...is there anything in the description of the tentacle that indicates it couldn't do that as well?
(i read your original thread on that tactic, btw. good stuff.)
Nope. Says it can hold things just like the Alchemists hand can (unless there is an FAQ I don't know about), but if you are choosing between 1 and the other its easier to hide the arm if you so desire. I get the feeling most Alchemists dump Cha anyways so this would just fit right into the awkwardly social stigma but whatevs.
Yeah, darkwood heavy shield would be what I'd go with. I'm pretty sure you can do that w/ a tentacle, though. It says, "The tentacle can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms can." Just because they didn't bother to say "...original arms can ("arm" including the 'hand' that comes standard issue on all humanoid arms)" or have the tentacle in the example being the appendage wielding the weapon seems pretty insignificant. Like it's only an issue if you're *trying* your hardest to nitpick it...
And since the tentacle doesn't have bones and such, and it's not required to sprout from your torso, I thought if anything the tentacle would be easier to hide. Not that I care. If I make my alchemist, he's gonna be beastmorph, feral mutagen, everything. Bug eyed, mandibles, tentacle, anything I feel like. Screw civilation and their stigma.
I've been considering a Magus/Alchemist with a vestigial limb so I can use spellcombat/strike and still use a two-handed weapon.
Magus cannot do that by strict RAW, sadly. Spell combat specifically requires using a one-handed weapon and having a free hand. You COULD use a 1H weapon in 2 hands for the 1.5x str modifier and 3-for-1 power attack rate and be RAW legal, if that's what you meant. You'll just have to deal with lower weapon base damage and lack of reach weapon options.
No two handed weapons for the magus. Just like with two weapon fighting, using a two handed weapon is not going to work. This was a very intentional design choice.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If you're fine with ignoring the intent, go ahead.
Ah Cheapy, bringing sunshine and rainbows to yet another thread.
The intent was based around a 2-armed magus. And as I said, RAW it doesn't work either. Best you can do is 2H a one handed weapon, and even then it only works when you actually have that spare hand via alchemist or synthesist.