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While giving advice in another thread, I found a way where you too can now stroll about in your leather undies and wield shield and spear. It involves some loose RAW/RAI. But it should be "fun".
We've all seen the Phalanx Soldier Fighter Archetype before. However when combined with the relatively new Effortless Lace, you can now finesse both your shield and spear.
Polearm (2-Handed) =(Phalanx Lvl. 3)=> Polearm (1-Handed) =(Effortless Lace)=> Polearm (Light)
Heavy Shield(1-Handed Bludgeoning) =(shield spikes)=> Heavy Shield(1-Handed Piercing) =(Effortless Lace)=> Heavy Shield (Light)
Now they are both subject to the benefits of weapon finesse. Pump up your Dex, and wear your... um... "light armor", while hanging around with your best platonic friends as you adventure.
Anyway, I'm not sure this concept is optimal (or original) by any means, but some other thoughts...
1) You may also qualify for slashing grace depending on the polearm.
2) You'll lose one of the best swashbuckler deeds (precise strike), but you could also take levels in swashbuckler if you wanted to be a bit more flavorful.
3) Remember to remind all your party members of the free feeling you get in your "light armor". Suggest they buy a pair or purchase them as gifts.
lol. While you're at it, Agile Maneuvers and finesse, and max acrobatics, to get the appropriate "knocking around the enemies and leaping 30 yards through the air for a headshot" feel
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I love ya BBT, but semantics!
1) Any character can use any weapon, there just may be a penalty.
2) That being said baseline monks don't get longspear on their proficiency list.
3) Effortless lace can be applied to any weapon it seems, but likely to no benefit.
4)
It involves some loose RAW/RAI. But it should be "fun".
I wouldn't try it in PFS, but it could be fun for a one-shot or module. I personally would probably find it tedious for a long campaign.
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I would argue, my dear BBT, that the usage designation of the weapon (light/one-handed/two-handed) is variable based on the user.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature wields a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon (it still takes the –2 penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon). If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
So the designation of a weapon changes based on the user's size. Lets say a giant (large) attacks a human village and due to the superior craftsmanship of the human weapons he finds, decides to scavenge a human's longsword as a shortsword (or a dagger as toothpick). The effort designation is changed for him. This effort (hands of action/effort) is also carried over to the strength modifier/power attack/etc per the faq. If there was an item that had the opposite sizing requirements of effortless lace (effortful lace?), I believe it would work in this instance.
So if a class ability were to change the effort designation for a weapon for a user, of which there are a few, then the effortless lace may work for that weapon, for that user, but not for another user.
There are some rules elements that apply based on how the weapon is wielded and others that concern base weapon stats. For instance, 2-h weapons have more HP than 1-h weapons. But wielding a 2-h weapon one-handed doesn't reduce its HP. Likewise, the Lace doesn't care how you can wield the weapon; it cares about the base category.
Quoted for truth.
This has been discussed in a lot of threads; people always try to argue that wielding it as <something> means it IS that <something>. This is not the case.
Your concept can still be done and done well, but not through the route you're thinking of.
honestly, if you want leonidas from 300, take a look, he hardly EVER uses his spear. More often, he uses his sword, and even more often (and thankfully, accurate) he uses his shield to beat the ever living goodness out of people.
Very true.
TWF with a laced shield and a shortsword and you'll be fine.
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Buy a masterwork leather sling so you can include the speedo
I agree with BBT here. Just because you can wield a weapon in one-hand does not change the fact that it is a Two-handed Weapon.
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Inlaa, I'd agree it's more likely to be sword and shield to be accurate, but really wearing nothing but speedos and helmets into battle seems a little foolish.
Xethik, I actually think it does change. And here's why.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature wields a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon (it still takes the –2 penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon). If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
In the above we find that the designation is based on the amount of effort it takes to wield for a particular user. A huge creature with hands, if it were so inclined, could take the inappropriately sized penalty (-4) and two-weapon fight / finesse two medium-sized polearms. For them, the weapons' designation has been changed.
Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces armor training 1.
If we follow the rule that the specific trumps the general. The amount of effort has now changed for the Phalanx Soldier. This means the weapon's designation has changed. The weapon is still a two-handed weapon should most other medium characters pick it up or a light weapon for a huge creature.
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You are trying to say the Effortless Lace functions different, depending on who places it on the weapon.
That's not true, and nothing supports another view.
I'm not saying effortless lace functions differently depending on who places it on the weapon, but that it functions differently depending on who uses the weapon. Effortless lace, itself states it effects vary depending on who wields the weapon.
An example that I'm sure is raw would be a medium PC attaching an effortless lace to a Katana to make it a light weapon and thus finessable. Should said PC fall in battle, and their plucky halfling PC friend pick up their sword, then it is now a two-handed weapon due to the size difference, but the inappropriately-sized penalty for wield the weapon is now negated. However should a large Ogre pick up the Katana he gains no benefit at all.
BBT, I believe I've supported my argument well, however I don't think you've really supported your argument at all. If I had to guess, I think you're trying to say that because Effortless Lace says...
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Once an effortless lace’s abilities have been conveyed to a weapon, the ribbon must remain attached to the weapon or its effects end immediately, its magic is permanently lost, and it is reduced to worthless cloth. Effects that would dispel the magic of the weapon or cause the weapon to gain the broken condition (such as sundering) destroy the ribbon as well.
I'd argue the effort designation of "one-handed" is a creature specific designation (see my last post), and more or less meaningless as far as the restriction goes. My one-handed weapon becomes a light weapon should I drop it before my enlarge person and then pick it up.
Damage types however would require feats to change (slashing grace for example is needed to change slashing to piercing for certain effects). So what I would be more uncertain about would be using effortless lace/slashing grace with a weapon that dealt combination damage. For example, would slashing grace give me Dex to damage when I use a Sibat to deal Piercing Damage? Would effortless lace allow me to gain it's benefits for the bludgeoning damage from a morningstar?
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No. It's weapon specific.
It makes no sense to function otherwise.
You are still noting that the Effortless Lace functions differently, depending on who places it on the weapon.
Really, that is exactly what you are saying.
I say the fire is hot. You say the fire is not hot, but does give off a great amount of heat.
I doesn't matter the size of the creature placing the Effortless Lace on the weapon.
The prerequisites remain the same.
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No. It's weapon specific.
It makes no sense to function otherwise.
You are still noting that the Effortless Lace functions differently, depending on who places it on the weapon.
Really, that is exactly what you are saying.
I say the fire is hot. You say the fire is not hot, but does give off a great amount of heat.
I doesn't matter the size of the creature placing the Effortless Lace on the weapon.
The prerequisites remain the same.
.
I've no problem letting them use it, after all, its still being used ones handed.
Jotun grip barb with large bastard sword 2d8) says high, he can wield two of these bad boys.
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It doesn't matter if they can use it One-handed.
When enchanting something, it doesn't matter how you can wield it.
The the only time it's treated as an One-handed weapon, is when wielding it as such.
A Halfling can't enchant a medium Dagger with the Impact enchantment, simply because he wields it as an One-handed weapon.
Suddenly, these restrictions are meaningless, if you can just have someone of a different size enchant it.
If Bob the Wizard can't create a Fauchard with an Effortless Lace, then neither can the Phalanx Soldier Fighter.
I can't see how this is difficult to see.
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If you want to use a heavy shield as a light weapon for TWF, the easier option is to simply take the Shield Trained trait.
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The Phalanx Soldier could hand out the polearms with an effortless lace attached, or they could be stolen etc. But for people without the Phalanx Fighter or similar ability they work as a normal polearm and get no benefit from effortless lace, as they don't meet the qualifications for getting the benefit from effortless lace. And I wasn't arguing that point at all. So don't set up a strawman or use a reducto-absurdum on me.
How many hands you use by definition does affect a weapons function. Look at two-handing a quarterstaff vs two weapon fighting with it. Both work.
What I will say is that the problem we're having is based on the imprecise wording in Effortless Lace. In other clauses they mention "Intended Wielder", which clarifies some parts of the abilities but isn't applied to this restriction. (Note: The term "Intended Wielder" brings with it more problems, say I had a blacksmith create a huge rapier just for me, I'm still the intended wielder.)
You could then ask, well does this refer to a one-handed weapon for the "wielder" or the "intended wielder" or somebody else all together? If it's the "intended wielder", this one-handed weapon is still a two-handed weapon for the "wielder" and thus isn't a one-handed weapon for the "wielder". If it's the "wielder", this one-handed weapon is a light weapon for the "intended wielder" and thus isn't a one-handed weapon for the "intended wielder".
In any case, by RAW the light/one-handed/two-handed designation is creature-specific, by it's very definition. The handles may or may not be appropriately sized (and there is a penalty for that), but they still have a changed designation. Feel free to show me otherwise via RAW.
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You are still basing the legality of enchantments, based on who creates them.
It does not work that way.
It doesn't matter if a Titan, or Sprite, makes the weapon, they both follow the same rules.
You cannot, and will not, be able to show me the evidence that makes it otherwise so.
An Alchemist can't make Potions of True Strike, because his eyes are blue, and he can ride an Owlbear.
The rules of crafting, and enchanting, remain the same, no matter who you are.
I don't see how that could be hard to understand.
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Finally found the FAQ I remembered:
If you're wielding it in one hand (even if it is normally a two-handed weapon), treat it as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of how much Strength to apply, the Power Attack damage bonus, and so on.
"And so on", is not super helpful, but its an inclusive statement not an exclusive statement. What effects are covered by it, seemingly all, as none are excluded.
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Lazarx, please point out if I've misquoted the rules or if there is one I'm missing. But stating that I'm wrong without justification isn't really productive. The table itself is not set in stone, as weapon familiarity (moving an exotic weapon to the martial weapon list) is a clear RAW way to rearrange said table for a given character.
BBT, I'm not talking about fire, I'm not talking about alchemists or crafting (well except for pointing out the sloppiness of "intended wielder"), or Owlbears. Nor am I talking about changing their effects based on who creates them, just who uses them. There are plenty of items that aren't useable by their likely creators, Gloves of Dueling for example. It doesn't mean they aren't useful for someone else.
I'm just pointing out where intended or unintended, the RAW allows for some synergy. I didn't write the raw or edit it. I'm not saying it's not a bunch of shenanigans either. I'm just saying by RAW it works.
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If you want to use a heavy shield as a light weapon for TWF, the easier option is to simply take the Shield Trained trait.
Gorum as god of war is very thematically appropriate for Spartan-equivalents. Good Catch!
Punishing Kick.
So, the amount of HP a weapon has is dependent on who is wielding it now? Does the spear lose HP when wielded by a phalanx fighter?
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So, the amount of HP a weapon has is dependent on who is wielding it now? Does the spear lose HP when wielded by a phalanx fighter?
To some, yes.
They will even quote the FAQ, that specifically disputes their claim, and state it proves it.
The dead horse is alive, because the veterinarian declared it dead.
This is that logic.