Need advice for an archer build using pathfinder society core rules set.
New to Pathfinder rules and looking for a second level build (retraining) with an eye towards future levels.
Thanks in advance.
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Archer isn't so much a class as it is a set of feats.
Right away, you'll want Point-blank shot, rapid shot, and precise shot. Bam, you're a low-level archer, and you can do that with any class you like, though some are a bit faster than others.
You'll want str and dex about equal, and both over 14.
Grab silver and cold iron arrows as soon as you can. Also load up on alchemical items like holy water, you'll have good aim, and arrows aren't too useful vs. skeletons.
After that, goals should be:
Get a MW composite long bow, built for your strength.
Get some more low-level feats, possibilities include weapon focus, quick draw, arcane strike, power attack (again, arrows are good, but sometimes you need plan B).
Keep your perception high, you're only an archer if you can see.
Finally, get that MW longbow enchanted to +1. Once that's done, it's time to think about defense. Better armor, better saving throws, and an item to boost one of your stats.
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From a Core perspective, paladin is my favourite option. Spells, great saves, huge damage for the important enemies, and the ability to bust out a mount if you find yourself in appropriate terrain.
A human paladin could go:
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
While a halfling paladin could go:
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16
Halfling is slower to start, but you get the fun 'ride my bonded animal around' option in just about any situation.
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Probably the default way to be an archer would be to take those feats and be a human Fighter. That gets you the three basic archery feats at first level. Human Ranger also works really well, if you choose Archery style combat feats.
If you chose, instead, to be an halfing Bard who does archery, then you get your 3rd 'Now I'm a real archer' feat at 5th level. On the other hand, you would also buff your allies and cast spells, which is huge. Other PFS players are generally happy to see a Bard and the archery is a plus.
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Bard is a fun option. Go human to get precise shot at level one, then rapid shot and arcane strike just in time for the bonus damage to increase by caster level.
In most PFS scenarios you'll be close enough to keep your allies buffed with Inspire Courage while you're faking a ranger's base attack bonus tha ks to it. You still have the incredible utility of a Bard along with good damage output. You won't quite match up to a smiting paladin or a ranger against his favored enemy or a dedicated archer fighter, but your party will love you for the buffs and the fire support.
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There are a few potential PFS core archer builds. Which one you will want will depend upon what you want to be able to do other than damage. The builds below could probably all be improved--some (such as the cleric) would probably be improved by a less aggressive archery focus--but I think they're passable core archer builds. If the numbers seem low, it's because they're being compared without magic in order to prevent equipment choices from obscuring the differences.
Note that, while deadly aim helps a bit, strength still contributes a lot of an archer's damage--especially at lower levels. Don't go below a 14 and if you have the points available, you might even want to start with an 18 strength.
The fighter
Human
Str 16, Dex 16+2 racial, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Switch strength and dex for a more aggressive build.
Traits: none are essential. Reactionary for initiative and Birthmark to help your will save are decent placeholders
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Human bonus: Precise Shot
1. Fighter bonus: Rapid Shot
2. Fighter bonus: Weapon Focus- composite longbow
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Specialization
5. Quickdraw or Improved Initiative/Iron Will
6. Manyshot
7. Power Attack or Improved Initiative/Iron Will/Improved Iron Will
8. Greater Weapon Focus- composite longbow
9. Improved Critical- composite longbow
11. Improved Precise Shot
Weapon Training: Bows.
Skills: Any three of your choice. Possibly Acrobatics, Perception, and Intimidate.
Roles: Deal damage--lots of damage. At 11th level, he will be +18/+18/+13/+8 for 1d8+9 before magic with Rapid Shot (assuming 16 Str/18 dex and stat bumps in dex). Armor training will ensure that this version has the best armor class of any archer pictured--able to take full advantage of his (unaugmented) dexterity in mithral fullplate or able to take advantage of fully augmented dexterity in a mithral breastplate.
From level 3 on, he is also a bit of a switch-hitter--able to switch to a greatsword or longsword+buckler and full attack without skipping a beat thanks to Quickdraw. At level 7, Power Attack (and a second weapon training group at 9) makes him solidly competent in his backup style. That will be handy when DR, visibility, or other conditions make archery impractical.
The Ranger
Human
Str 14, Dex 16+2 racial, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Rangers don't technically need to drop their strength for wisdom, but they need it to cast their spells.
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Bonus: Human Precise Shot
2. Archery Style: Rapid Shot
3. Deadly Aim
5. Archery Style: Improved Precise Shot
5. Weapon Focus
7. Manyshot
9. Improved Critical
10. Archery Style: Pinpoint Targetting
11. Improved Initiative
The archer ranger will put out damage comparable to the fighter when fighting favored enemies. Otherwise, he is at +15/+15/+10/+5 for 1d8+2 plus magic with Rapid Shot compared to the fighter's numbers above. He doesn't have feats to spare for switch-hitting without losing some archery feats. On the other hand, he gets lots of skills, some spells, evasion, an animal companion, and lots of other ways to contribute.
Switch-hitting Ranger
Str 16, Dex 14+2 racial, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Rangers don't technically need to drop their strength for wisdom, but they need it to cast their spells.
1. Quickdraw
1. Power Attack
2. Archery Style: Rapid Shot
3. Deadly Aim
5. Archery Style: Improved Precise Shot
7. Improved Initiative
9. Iron Will
10.Archery Style: Manyshot
11. Improved Iron Will
The switch-hitting ranger is not as focused an archer as the others. He stands in the front lines and switches to melee as soon as an enemy engages. However, that forces the enemy to move+attack rather than full attack and lets him take advantage of any slow enemies (or an ally with a reach weapon).
The Paladin
Str 14, Dex 16+2 racial, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Bonus: Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot
5. Deadly Aim
7. Manyshot
9. Improved Critical
11. Improved Precise Shot
The paladin does paladin things: diplomacy, sense motive, detect evil, lay on hands, and also unloads a boatload of damage against evil foes when smiting. Mostly, you would play the paladin because you want to play a paladin, but it offers a spike damage alternative to the fighter's steady drip of damage. Paladins also offer immunities, good saving throws, and easy access to self-healing. Since a lot of their offense comes from Smite or spells, they can also be reasonably effective at switch-hitting.
At level 11, the non-smiting damage before magic is +14/+14/+9/+4 for 1d8+2, however, when smiting an evil target, that leaps to +16/+16/+11/+6 for 1d8+13 and ignoring all damage reduction. That damage can be buffed further with divine favor. (+19/+19/+14/+9 for 1d8+16 with divine favor and smite)
The Cleric
Cleric of Erastil. Domains: probably animal and good but they're not really relevant for the build's purposes.
Str 14, Dex 16+2 racial, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Traits: Magical Lineage: Divine Favor, whatever you like
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Human bonus: Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot
5. Weapon Focus
7. Quicken Spell
9. Manyshot
11. Quicken Spell Like Ability for Touch of Good if allowed (I'm not quite sure if monster feats are available in Core) or Deadly Aim if not.
As an archer, the cleric doesn't compete with the martials-- +11/+11/+6 for 1d8+2 unbuffed (assuming he advanced Wis rather than Dex) is not in the same range. However, he does get full spellcasting. Toss in divine power or a quickened divine favor starting at level 7 and by level 11, that's +14/+14/+9 for 1d8+5 (with another attack if he used divine power). If Quicken Spell Like Ability is usable, that would be +19/+19/+14 for 1d8+5 with divine favor/power and Touch of Good active. The real reason you would choose an archer cleric is to be able to do all the cleric things, order a (weaker) animal companion around, and contribute your arrows when the opportunity arises or you don't want to waste spells.
The bard
Str 14, Dex 16+2 racial, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Bonus: Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot
5. Deadly Aim
7. Manyshot
9. Improved Critical
11. Improved Precise Shot
Look familiar? Take the Paladin build and be a bard instead. Your BAB suffers, but you get bardic buffs, skills, and spells. With inspire courage active, your anemic +11/+11/+6 for 1d8+2 becomes +14/+14/+9 for 1d8+5. With Heroism as well (which you should have most of the time by level 11, that's +16/+16/+11 for 1d8+5. That's respectable and between bardic performance and spells, you're also contributing improved damage for everyone else as well. The fighter is +23/+23/+18/+13 for 1d8+12 when you buff him with heroism and inspire courage which is pretty spectacular.
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Elder Basilisk's post above has a tremendous amount of very useful information, but I disagree with valuing a 14 or 16 STR over a 20 DEX for any archer. With Deadly Aim you have the OPTION to trade your "extra" attack bonuses form a higher DEX for bonuses to damage, or the OPTIONS to keep your high attack should you need it for a particularly challenging situation. Options are a Good Thing.
With a 3/4 BAB build (cleric or Bard discussed above), it becomes even more important to have those extra bonuses to attack. With a full BAB class like a Ranger or Paladin, the extra DEX will help your iterative attacks land. With a Fighter Archer and a 20 DEX, your iterative attacks will land with the same frequency as the Bard and Cleric's primary attacks.
DEX for an archer is everything: start with a 20 if you can make it work.
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I disagree on the 20 stat aspect because it's so costly. In a 20 point buy you're spending 17 of your points on a single stat. If you're going to say options are a good thing, then don't reduce your options in this matter.
At most, I would suggest a 19 to start, because that lets you up it to 20 at level 4.
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I disagree on the 20 stat aspect because it's so costly. In a 20 point buy you're spending 17 of your points on a single stat. If you're going to say options are a good thing, then don't reduce your options in this matter.
At most, I would suggest a 19 to start, because that lets you up it to 20 at level 4.
Seconded.
Generally only classes which should start with a 20 (unless a super high point buy I suppose) are wizard/sorceror/witch etc.
Of note - if you go bard, you may consider going elf. That way you get longbow proficiency. (And all the secondary advantages aren't bad either.)
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I disagree on the 20 stat aspect because it's so costly. In a 20 point buy you're spending 17 of your points on a single stat. If you're going to say options are a good thing, then don't reduce your options in this matter.
At most, I would suggest a 19 to start, because that lets you up it to 20 at level 4.
Seconded.
Generally only classes which should start with a 20 (unless a super high point buy I suppose) are wizard/sorceror/witch etc.
Of note - if you go bard, you may consider going elf. That way you get longbow proficiency. (And all the secondary advantages aren't bad either.)
That's my perspective as well. I can think of a few characters that can work with a 20 prime stat but it's too expensive for too little marginal utility for me to recommend it for most characters.
I chose human for all of the archers because it's easier, not necessarily because it's the best choice. That said, it does let you get precise shot at level 1 in all of the cases which is pretty nice.
BTW, Elf bard would work great as long as you're willing to work with the slowed feat progression. The earliest you could have point blank, precise, and rapid shot without multiclassing is level 5 which is a long time to wait.
On the specific subject of archers, my experience is that any full BAB archer will have an easy time hitting reliably but that damage boosts are harder to find--especially for low strength archers. My PFS archer cleric started with a 16 Dex and sometimes could use a bit more accuracy, but he doesn't have full BAB and started with a 16 Dex. He also could use more damage per hit, even with his current 16 strength (with enhancement). Fighter is pretty much the only class where a 20 Dex would even potentially be on the table (if I had to, I'd go Str 12, Dex 20, Con 13, Cha 8) but it's pretty expensive to there. Fighters also have a ton of non-stat ways to increase accuracy. (Greater weapon focus and weapon training, etc.) They should be able to use Deadly Aim and still hit even without the 20 starting Dex.
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I disagree on the 20 stat aspect because it's so costly. In a 20 point buy you're spending 17 of your points on a single stat. If you're going to say options are a good thing, then don't reduce your options in this matter.
At most, I would suggest a 19 to start, because that lets you up it to 20 at level 4.
Seconded.
Generally only classes which should start with a 20 (unless a super high point buy I suppose) are wizard/sorceror/witch etc.
Of note - if you go bard, you may consider going elf. That way you get longbow proficiency. (And all the secondary advantages aren't bad either.)
Fourth-ed.
20 in any stat at 1st level is generally a bad idea due to over-specialization. In Core there are less options to compensate for the glaring weaknesses you build into your character by such a strategy.
You don't need to min/max to complete PFS scenarios successfully. +3 bonus in your primary stat is plenty at 1st level, no matter what kind of character you're building.
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Not that much changes between Classic/Core, save for absence of the absolute crack monkey Zen Archer Monk. Fighter and Ranger become once again the go to archery paths.Need advice for an archer build using pathfinder society core rules set.
New to Pathfinder rules and looking for a second level build (retraining) with an eye towards future levels.
Thanks in advance.
Fighter and ranger both do higher damage than Zen Archer. Ranger needs instant enemy, and Fighter take longer to get there. Zen Archer just makes it easier by giving you every though you need as bonus feats, and built in switch hitting.
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Switch hitting? I have yet to see a Zen Archer monk do anything other than shoot.Fighter and ranger both do higher damage than Zen Archer. Ranger needs instant enemy, and Fighter take longer to get there. Zen Archer just makes it easier by giving you every though you need as bonus feats, and built in switch hitting.Not that much changes between Classic/Core, save for absence of the absolute crack monkey Zen Archer Monk. Fighter and Ranger become once again the go to archery paths.Need advice for an archer build using pathfinder society core rules set.
New to Pathfinder rules and looking for a second level build (retraining) with an eye towards future levels.
Thanks in advance.
Well, they can unarmed strike before they get point blank master, and then they shoot in melee.
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With Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training, I would argue that a fighter has built in bonuses that more than make up for the lack of Improved Precise Strike until level 11.
As far as the 20 DEX, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. With a 20 point Human Fighter build, what else are you going to spend your points on? You can have a 20 DEX, dump CHA to 7 and have enough points left to give yourself a 13 STR and 12 in CON and WIS. I could understand going with a more balanced build if you are going to melee, or have a MAD build class/build, but for a pure fighter, 20 DEX seems like a no brainer.
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The problem is that PFS effectively ends at 11. Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon training will only lower the penalty for cover, it won't eliminate it. Having no penalty for half your career is better than having reduced penalties for a quarter of it.
The Ranger will also have Favored Enemy available most of the time to catch up to the Weapon Training/GWF bonuses. Humans and Undead will cover at least 60% - 70% of PFS enemies. This is core so there is no instant enemy, but it's still going to be up a lot.
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I'd say Fighter is heads and shoulders above the rest with consistent, always-on damage, especially if you are talking Core. I'd say a ranger with Human and Undead (note: that second option comes online at level 5, same as the Fighter's always-on +1/+1 from Weapon Training) would coer about 50% of the encounters in PFS.
Ranger gives much better skills than the fighter or paladin, especially our of combat. Paladin adds a whole lot of survivability to the party as a whole (and themselves), and puts the other archers to shame against evil targets (I'd call that 40-60% of PFS encounters?).
At the higher levels in PFS (say level 9+), Fighter Archers really lay down some serious smack. Maybe the rangers and Paladins can keep up against specific types of targets, but I haven't played with a ranger or paladin archer that comes anywhere close to my halfling fighter archer in pure damage output. I think the only non-core item he has is Gloves of Dueling.
Of course having said all that, said fighter has just about nothing to offer to the group and/or scenario outside of combat, other than the fact that he talks a lot (an artifact of his race and my roleplaying, more so than the character's class ;).
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I think just about everybody above is correct. Different archer types are actually quite well balanced against each other so its largely up to personal preference and campaign which is better.
That said, personally I'd go with Ranger or bard. In my opinion, the biggest drawback to archers is that they can be boring to play. Every action in every combat is "5 ft step, pew pew". Bards and rangers at least have lots more options, both in and out of combat.
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Boredom in combat is probably one of the best reasons for a switch hitter build or a paladin archer.
With traits you even a fighter can come up with one or two things to be good at doing outside of combat. Rangers, paladins, bards, and clerics all have out of combat abilities built in (especially rangers and bards).
However, while the fighter does incredible damage very reliably every turn, he also does the same thing every turn. Ranger has a few more options (a couple spells) but is still probably just full attacking. Paladins have lay on hands and smites to break up the monotony in addition to spells. Bards and clerics have lots of options but aren't as good at the core archer ability: killing things with arrows.