Can a Swashbuckler benefit from an agile weapon?

[Nadlor]

Hi, everyone. I have a doubt about how Swashbuckling Finesse and Agile Weapon interact.

Swashbuckling Finesse says "this ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites". Does that mean that Swashbuckling Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse when a feat has WF as a prerequisite, or that Swashbuckling Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse when anything has WF as a feat prerequisite?

I'm asking because Agile Weapon states that "a wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls". I want to know if A Swashbuckler with an Agile Light Spiked Shield (which acts as a light piercing weapon) can apply its dex bonus to damage when performing a shield bash.

I hope I'm not too confusing. Thanks a lot in advance for your help!

[Just a Guess]

Yes

[kestral287]

Amusingly enough, by strict RAW... no, it can't. Agile isn't a feat, and it doesn't have Weapon Finesse as an actual pre-req anyway.

If you're not in PFS I think every GM ever would allow it though?

[Nawtyit]

Interesting question because swashbucklers are only proficient with bucklers and cannot use precise strike while using a shield other than a buckler.

[Nadlor]

I'm actually only interested in a one-level dip in Swashbuckler for Swashbuckler Finesse and opening up Slashing Grace. It is my intention to build a dex-based sword (scimitar) and board archaeologist, and I want dex to damage with the shield. Spiked light shield (bards are proficient with non-tower shields) is a light piercing weapon, allowing me to apply dex to attack rolls with Swashbuckling Finesse, but I still need agile for damage.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Nadlor wrote:

I'm actually only interested in a one-level dip in Swashbuckler for Swashbuckler Finesse and opening up Slashing Grace. It is my intention to build a dex-based sword (scimitar) and board archaeologist, and I want dex to damage with the shield. Spiked light shield (bards are proficient with non-tower shields) is a light piercing weapon, allowing me to apply dex to attack rolls with Swashbuckling Finesse, but I still need agile for damage.

If you take the Shield Trained feat then you can make it a heavy spiked shield and still TWF without penalty. Though the light shield does make casting easier.

[wakedown]

I think you're okay, regardless if it's a home game or PFS.

Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats.

To me, one of the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat is being able to use it with an agile weapon.

I can't imagine any good-guy GM denying it.

[cnetarian]

Nadlor wrote:

I'm actually only interested in a one-level dip in Swashbuckler for Swashbuckler Finesse and opening up Slashing Grace. It is my intention to build a dex-based sword (scimitar) and board archaeologist, and I want dex to damage with the shield. Spiked light shield (bards are proficient with non-tower shields) is a light piercing weapon, allowing me to apply dex to attack rolls with Swashbuckling Finesse, but I still need agile for damage.

If that's your intent you ought to use a whip instead - sure it does less damage and you need the whip mastery feat to do damage to several opponents and avoid AoOs when attacking, but it's an archeologist with a whip. As a non-light one-handed finessable slashing weapon with reach the whip has some mechanical justification as well, not enough usually to outweigh the decreased damage but the flavor is what makes the whip shine. (side note: bards don't get martial weapon (cough*scimitar*cough) proficiency so the one-level dip in swashbuckler adds that too.)

[Nadlor]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

If you take the Shield Trained feat then you can make it a heavy spiked shield and still TWF without penalty. Though the light shield does make casting easier.

That's a good tip. Bards ignore light armor and Shields spell failure, so I would be covered in that regard. The problem is the feat starvation I will face (I'm interested in taking TWF and Shield Master feat chains, which require heavy feat investment).

cnetarian wrote:

If that's your intent you ought to use a whip instead - sure it does less damage and you need the whip mastery feat to do damage to several opponents and avoid AoOs when attacking, but it's an archeologist with a whip. As a non-light one-handed finessable slashing weapon with reach the whip has some mechanical justification as well, not enough usually to outweigh the decreased damage but the flavor is what makes the whip shine. (side note: bards don't get martial weapon (cough*scimitar*cough) proficiency so the one-level dip in swashbuckler adds that too.)

I thought about whip (flavour is great!) but if I want to go the TWF route I just don't have that many feats. TWF synergyzes nicely with the Archaeologist Luck feature: the more attacks, the more times the bonus to damage is applied. I know archery is probably better, but I've just finished a campaign with an archer and want to go melee for a while.

[thistledown]

I'm also interested in a concensis on agile Swashbucklers

[cnetarian]

Quote:

Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

Quote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Quote:

Weapon Finesse (Combat)

You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

As long as the weapon fits the category "light or one-handed piercing melee weapons" (for swashbuckler's finesse) and is "a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain" (weapons usable with weapons finesse feat, and thus subject to the agile enchant) then a swashbuckler could gain the benefits of swashbuckler finesse and the agile enchant at the same time. Basically this limits the agile enchant using swashbuckler to rapiers (and light piercing weapons but a light weapon is usually a poor choice). As an alternative to the agile enchant there is the slashing grace feat

Quote:

Slashing Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

A slashing grace swashbuckler can get the benefits of swashbuckler's finesse dexterity to hit and the agile enchant dexterity to damage with a one-handed slashing weapon (dwarven waraxe, klar, whip, scimitar, longsword and so on).

A dexterity based swashbuckler is certainly viable by taking the slashing grace feat, but if you want to use the iconic swashbuckler weapon, the rapier, then you have to get the agile enchant.

[thistledown]

The Fencing Grace feat would do if I was using a rapier, but I'm looking at using the sword part of a Swordcane Pistol or using a Cestus.

The questionable part is that Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't outright give you the feat, just the benefits of it. And agile only activates if you have the feat.