Hi all!
I might be playing a Rogue soon for the first time. Just want to be clear about one thing for Sneak Attacks, though. Is the sneak damage just once for the whole round? Or can you use it several times in one round if a rogue has more than one attack.
For example, a rogue with two weapon fighting at level 1. He's flanking a foe and hits with both weapons that round. Would the sneak damage just be +1d6 for the round? Or would the sneak damage be +2d6, one for each hit that one round?
Just want to make sure I don't get my expectations to high at the wrong time!
Thanks in advance!
It applies to each hit, assuming you meet the conditions for it.
That is the opponent must be flanked or otherwise rendered flat-footed to your attacks.
You didn't ask, but clarification with Invisibility.
If you attacked out of Invisibility (say you are a Ninja who can turn himself invisible as a swift action), your Sneak Attack would only apply to your first attack. But, if the target was denied Dex to AC from another source, flanked, or you had Greater Invisibility, Sneak Attack would apply to each hit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The easiest way to think about it is this:
1. Begin your round.
2. Ask yourself "Do I meet the conditions for Sneak Attack on this attack?"
3. If yes, then sneak attack, else no sneak attack.
Then repeat steps 2 & 3 for each additional attack this round.
Some conditions (e.g. Invisibility) end after one attack. Other conditions persist for your whole round (e.g. flanking, unless YOU move to break it between attacks). So if you check for valid Sneak Attack conditions with each attack, you can't go wrong.
Data Entry Cleric of Abadar
|
For example, a rogue with two weapon fighting at level 1. He's flanking a foe and hits with both weapons that round. Would the sneak damage just be +1d6 for the round? Or would the sneak damage be +2d6, one for each hit that one round?
Technically it would be +1d6 for attack #1 and +1d6 for attack #2, not +2d6. If both attacks succeed the net result is the same, but damage should be figured separately in case there's DR or other factors.
Yup, you apply the listed sneak attack to every damage roll you make so long as the conditions for it are met.
Main differences have already been touched upon, like how Invisibility is only good for the first attack (since they can see you and respond to you after it drops from that first attack).
Important things to remember as a rogue:
1) You can't sneak attack if the target has any amount of concealment, which includes it just being dark or foggy.
2) Everyone (barring class abilities and feats) is considered flat footed at the start of combat until they take their first turn. Which means if you win init, you can sneak attack pretty much anybody you can reach.
3) There are things beyond just flanking that can grant you sneak attacks. If the target is actively trying to balance (like say from a Grease spell, or from crossing a narrow beam), they don't get their Dex bonus to AC, and hence are SA'able.
Rogues and Ninjas tend to be all or nothing characters. If they can get their sneak attacks off, they can blow stuff up like nobody else. If they can't get sneak attack off, they're fairly useless in combat. The Wizard's fireball might not be able to match the raw damage output of a TWF rogue getting full sneak attack, but the wizard doesn't need such precise setups to shoot his fireball either.
Takes a lot of skill, tactical planning, and forethought to play a sneak attacker to it's potential.
There is even a feat that lets you benefit from Critical Feats you have if you hit an opponent with 2 or more sneak attacks in a round. I forget what it's called, though.
@Koshimo & Claxon: Thanks for that. Just wanted to be sure. The rules I looked at pointed out the sneak bonus doesn't multiply with critical hits. So, I wanted to be sure that was not the case with multiple hits too.
Thanks again.
@Xethik: Thanks. I don't know how often I'll be using Invisibility to attack (not a lot, I'm guessing), but that'll be handy if the situation comes up!
@DM_Blake: good to know. I just got a little tripped up on the rules stating sneak damage doesn't multiply for critical hits. That's all helpful!
Technically it would be +1d6 for attack #1 and +1d6 for attack #2, not +2d6. If both attacks succeed the net result is the same, but damage should be figured separately in case there's DR or other factors.
For example, a rogue with two weapon fighting at level 1. He's flanking a foe and hits with both weapons that round. Would the sneak damage just be +1d6 for the round? Or would the sneak damage be +2d6, one for each hit that one round?
Yes, sorry, that's what I had in mind. I could've been slightly clearer on that. Thanks.
@Edymnion: Ooo! That's cool. I hadn't thought of those conditions other than flanking that makes for Sneak Attacks. Very useful, that!
Thanks!
|
@Xethik: Thanks. I don't know how often I'll be using Invisibility to attack (not a lot, I'm guessing), but that'll be handy if the situation comes up!
That's actually the main reason that the Ninja class is considered superior in most ways to their parent class - the rogue. Because they can turn invisible on their own - they can get off their sneak attacks far more often. (Especially great to use at the end of your round as you're then invisible vs your opponent's attacks.)
You may consider switching to ninja.
@SmiloDan: maybe you're thinking of?
I had to look that up to find it. But if that was the feat you're thinking of, it's for 14th level fighters, so it wouldn't do my rogue much good (if he got that high in level).
On the other hand, I'd not looked at any of those Critical Feats either! So that gives me more options to look at for my rogue!
@Everyone: thanks for the input and clarifications. Much appreciated!
@Charon's Little Helper:
This was for a PC that's a Swashbuckler rogue archetype. If it happens, of course. I've not had a close look at the ninja before either, but I don't know if the DM in question allows them anyway.
Thanks for the tip on Critical feats. I wasn't thinking about the sneak attack not being multiplied when I looked at those.
It applies to each hit, assuming you meet the conditions for it.
That is the opponent must be flanked or otherwise rendered flat-footed to your attacks.
They dont need to be flat-footed. They just need to be denied their dex to AC.
@wraithstrike: thanks!
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to clarify the bit about multiple sneack attack damage per round. I appreciate that!
@wraithstrike: thanks!
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to clarify the bit about multiple sneack attack damage per round. I appreciate that!
Yeah, it can be pretty tricky as there is no master list of things that cause an opponent to become sneak attackable. Its all spread out across individual conditions and abilities/spells/etc.
Flat footed and flanked are just the most common ways of getting it.
When in doubt, ask yourself these two questions:
1) Can I picture this target being able to easily jump out of the way and dodge my attack? Its hard to picture someone barely managing to stand up because they're slipping around gracefully jumping away from you, or if they're on a narrow beam, climbing a rock wall, etc. It may not always be a sneak attack case, but it should at least be enough to get you to ask your GM if it applies or not.
2) Can I clearly see the target? Is there anything blocking your view, is it dark, foggy, is the target blurry or anything like that? If so, you might not be able to get your SA even if they normally would be susceptible.
When in doubt, ask your GM. They should be able to tell you pretty quickly if the target is okay to SA or not.
Won't take you too long to get the hang of it, but don't be ashamed if you still miss a few oppertunities. Trust me, every single person reading this thread has had that moment of "Aw dammit, I could have SA'ed right there!".
Also, consider the scout archetype. By 4th level sneak attack applies when charging. By 8th level sneak attack in any round where the rogue has moved more than 10 feet. I've seen this in action and it works well for high mobility rogues. Add jaunt boots and you suddenly have all sorts of opportunities to sneak attack.
(Then you just need to convince your GM to give the class full BAB progression rather than 3/4.)
The class has some deficiencies for sure, but it is still one of my favourites to play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They dont need to be flat-footed. They just need to be denied their dex to AC.It applies to each hit, assuming you meet the conditions for it.
That is the opponent must be flanked or otherwise rendered flat-footed to your attacks.
Very true, it is so easy to conflate the two that it happens accidentally. Even with those of us like ourselves who are experienced with the rules.
@Edymnion: I'm sure it'll come with practice. Should be interesting, though...
@Pappy: it was the swashbuckler archetype, actually. Had to give up the trap sense business, but oh well. He effectively gets three bonus combat feats at first level (Martial Training: Martial weapon proficiency and two combat trick rogue talents). Got a DEX 20, so I got him proficient with the scimitar (Dervish Dance feat to follow later), Weapon Finesse, and two weapon fighting, and weapon focus (scimitar).
Since he has TWF and a very high DEX, I wanted to be sure that both attacks could do sneak attack damage in one round.
Should be interesting...
@Pappy: it was the swashbuckler archetype, actually. Had to give up the trap sense business, but oh well. He effectively gets three bonus combat feats at first level (Martial Training: Martial weapon proficiency and two combat trick rogue talents). Got a DEX 20, so I got him proficient with the scimitar (Dervish Dance feat to follow later), Weapon Finesse, and two weapon fighting, and weapon focus (scimitar).
Since he has TWF and a very high DEX, I wanted to be sure that both attacks could do sneak attack damage in one round.
Should be interesting...
A couple of comments:
You take a major penalty when trying to Two-Weapon Fight with two Scimitars. Well, by major I mean a -2 to hit. Your off-hand should be a light weapon to avoid that penalty. One way to do something similar is to use Sawtooth Sabres and take a level in the Swashbuckler class (not the Rogue archetype). Sawtooth Sabres allow you to take the Slashing Grace feat (Advanced Class Guide) and get Dexterity to damage. Sadly, that makes your Martial Weapon Proficiency somewhat useless. If you are a Half-Elf, you can get proficiency with Sawtooth Sabres as an alternate race feature.The two combat tricks from Rogue must be selected as Rogue talents and you do not have access to any at level 1. Other good Rogue talents are Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse for a Rogue talent) and I believe there is a talent for Weapon Focus.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Pappy: it was the swashbuckler archetype, actually. Had to give up the trap sense business, but oh well. He effectively gets three bonus combat feats at first level (Martial Training: Martial weapon proficiency and two combat trick rogue talents). Got a DEX 20, so I got him proficient with the scimitar (Dervish Dance feat to follow later), Weapon Finesse, and two weapon fighting, and weapon focus (scimitar).
Since he has TWF and a very high DEX, I wanted to be sure that both attacks could do sneak attack damage in one round.
Should be interesting...
Be careful. You can't benefit from the Dervish Dancer feat with TWF: the last line of Dervish Dancer says "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
That means you also can't use your Dex to attack with a scimitar if you are TWF.
Slashing Grace just says "When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed"--I don't see anything in there or in Swashbuckler Finesse that would restrict you from having anything in your offhand.
There is a restriction on TWF in the Precise Strike Swashbuckler deed ("To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler."), but if you do a one-level dip for Swashbuckler's Finesse, you should be fine.
@Pappy: it was the swashbuckler archetype, actually. Had to give up the trap sense business, but oh well. He effectively gets three bonus combat feats at first level (Martial Training: Martial weapon proficiency and two combat trick rogue talents). Got a DEX 20, so I got him proficient with the scimitar (Dervish Dance feat to follow later), Weapon Finesse, and two weapon fighting, and weapon focus (scimitar).
Since he has TWF and a very high DEX, I wanted to be sure that both attacks could do sneak attack damage in one round.
Should be interesting...
There is a recent thread in the advice area on using TWF with scimitars and avoiding the heavy penalty for having a one handed weapon in your off-hand. If you do not do this your rogue is likely to not hit anything reliably.
Ah yes, I forgot that you can't TWF with Dervish Dance even if you'd like to.
I highly recommend a dip into Swashbuckler (the ACG class) or Daring Champion Cavalier (ACG Archetype for Cavalier). This will allow you to finesse a one-handed weapon (not just a light) and use Slashing Grace to get Dex to damage with it (Slashing Grace does not work with light weapons). Sawtooth Sabre is ideal because you get to avoid the penalty for attacking with a one-handed weapon in your off-hand.
Reiterating what has been stated already by Gwen Smith and wraithstrike, but wanted to add in some small tidbits.
@Xethik, Gwen Smith, and wraithstrike:
Thanks for the input/ideas. They're helpful and appreciated.
My plan was not to do TWF with the scimitar. I had in mind to to TWF with shortswords or shortsword/dagger or dagger/daggerto fight one-handed using the scimitar and DD. As situations dictate.
It was a 25 point buy,so his DEX is 20, so if he fights with just one shortsword, he'll be +5 to hit, +3 with TWF, and with the scimitar by itself he'll be at +3 (STR is 14). He's not a muscle-bound fighter, so I was trying to see how I could maximize the number of sneak attacks, and the bonuses that go with them, per round. I think he can still use TWF with smaller blades and still have a good chance of hitting twice per round.
I wanted to build into the DD at second level, at which point he'd come in to his own with the scimitar, as well as being able to do TWF with smaller weapons.
@Gwen Smith: Sorry, was already aware of the one-handed restriction for Dervish Dance. I was looking to have a character who was handy with a scimitar or TWF with smaller blades. Depending on a given situation.
My thinking is to have a rogue who's more combative than most, but not too much of a one-trick pony in the combat end of things.
@Xethic: I don't know if I'll dip into multi-classing. We'll just see how it goes. But that Slashing Grace feat I already know of. It's way cool; no rogue or dexterity based fighter should be without it!
Why don't more people use dual wield wakizazhis? At least tengus...
|
Something else to think about, if your GM allows the feat, and your party includes at least two other melee types:
Gang Up
While it require Combat Expertise as a prereq, it allows you to flank an opponent as long as two of your allies are threatening it. It can be amusing, "I have backed into this corner, so none of those three are flanking me! How is that Rogue getting sneak attack damage?"
@kinevon: thanks for that one.
I'll put that on my list of feats to build with!
@SmiloDan: That would've been a good choice too. Unfortunately, no Eastern stuff/classes in this particular campaign. Shame, from the looks of those weapons. I'll make a note of that for future reference, though!