I have no idea. He has played rogues in the past and really likes playing them. This time he felt that the slayer was a better option.
If everything sucks so bad then why do you continue playing the game or supporting Paizo? Is this some kind of S&M relationship with Paizo being the sadist inflicting sweet pain on the masochists who continue to demand even more of what they hate?
The real problem is that non-trivial issues get lost in all of the background noise of wailing and gnashing teeth that rise to a cacophony every time Paizo does anything. Ever.
SM
Lets not exaggerate shall we.....
I dont see the point in adopting the "Lets all keep that stiff upper lip shall we chaps?" mentality if we see something we dont like/disagree with....its very sheep like
What IS weird is why you would waste oxygen on a thread that you have nothing but contempt for... ?!?!
I do wish people wouldnt get so into semantics and pedantics!
The essence of what I'm saying is that it feels that the ACG was a real tipping point in PF bloat..... it is the first time I can remember that classes appeared that actually put other classes almost into retirement. Up until that additional classes filled holes.... I really dont think many of the ACG classes served much purpose.
The arcanist took a real bite out of the wizard and IMO virtually puts the Sorceror into retirement.
Bloodrager puts Barbarian in the shade
The Shaman... a complete farce IMO.... just when I thought the Oracle was OP with Divine Protection and add to Charisma to everything.... then along comes the Shaman! Single handedly it has almost put the Oracle, Witch, Cleric and Druid out of business entirely!! What is a real joke was that the Druid had a whole load of Shaman archetypes years before the ACG!!!! I mean... why even bother?!?!!?
And the Swashbuckler has put the cat amongst the pigeons too!
Currently playing a Shaman, it looked like it was more powerful than the Oracle, Witch, Cleric and such but now that I've played it for a bit I'm finding where balances. The hexes are much weaker in that you have no major or grand hexes. The next thing I notices is while you have 9th level spell access you gain spells later. For example you get heal as level 7 spell instead of 6th, a lot spells are like that. The Shaman has Jack of All Trades spell list great for covering all the bases or supplementing an area but not great for specializing in. I'm finding it no more powerful than the any of the other Full Casters.
Another class I played was the Slayer. Found it weaker than a Ranger and stronger than the rogue and stronger the the fighter except for when it came to AC. Have blood rage ready to play, look pretty much like a twist on a barbarian but no better.
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Lets not exaggerate shall we.....
I dont see the point in adopting the "Lets all keep that stiff upper lip shall we chaps?" mentality if we see something we dont like/disagree with....its very sheep like
What IS weird is why you would waste oxygen on a thread that you have nothing but contempt for... ?!?!
Get used to it imo.
Every now and then one to a handful of posters feel the need to make brownie points with the Paizo staff. Going into threads such as these. Verbally wagging fingers on how you, I or others are truly bad people. For daring to criticize Paizo.
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Missing the point. I recognize some of the posters in this thread, and they all have criticisms of Paizo/products. I certainly know I do.
They're just better founded, specific, and not alarmist.
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Missing the point. I recognize some of the posters in this thread, and they all have criticisms of Paizo/products. I certainly know I do.
They're just better founded, specific, and not alarmist.
I cannot recall having seen a thread where, even if such criticisms are presented well, the thread does not blow up into hostile nonsense like this one.
If you believe Paizo is doing it wrong, you are arguing against fanboys.
If you believe Paizo is doing it right, you are arguing against alarmists.
See how that fails to achieve any useful discussion?
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Well, "Is X the beginning of the end??" is alarmist.
"X mechanic doesn't work well, here's why" is not. Those discussions can be quite fruitful, although people will say "I don't have this problem in my game so it's not a problem at all".
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I think Mark Siefer's actually commented on the signal-to-noise ratio on useful feedback before?
Mark's kind of took over Sean K. Reynold's role as "designer that actually interacts with the forum" and he's much friendlier than Sean was =P
I'll note that if we're getting a second printing of the ACG with extensive errata, it means the first run sold well enough to justify printing a second.
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Here the thing though no matter how feedback or criticism is phrased it's seen a attack on Paizo. I get if it was something rude. Many times it's not. I have the ACG. For the most part I like the material in the book. I'm still going to warn someone to either get the PDF or wait until the second printing because it's edited badly.
Well, "Is X the beginning of the end??" is alarmist.
"X mechanic doesn't work well, here's why" is not. Those discussions can be quite fruitful, although people will say "I don't have this problem in my game so it's not a problem at all".
Mine would be 'the editing for the ACG was just... wow, I can't think of a word to convey just how bad it was.'
Mark's kind of took over Sean K. Reynold's role as "designer that actually interacts with the forum" and he's much friendlier than Sean was =P
I'll note that if we're getting a second printing of the ACG with extensive errata, it means the first run sold well enough to justify printing a second.
Can't agree more about Mark. And I REALLY hope to see that errata/FAQ for the ACG come soon so it can be a fully usable book.
Well, "Is X the beginning of the end??" is alarmist.
"X mechanic doesn't work well, here's why" is not. Those discussions can be quite fruitful, although people will say "I don't have this problem in my game so it's not a problem at all".
And as I said previously... I was hoping that people wouldnt go all pedantic and semantic and start taking things literally from my first post... and instead use some common sense as to what I was saying.I mean FFS... even before you start talking about the classes... the editing was horrendous!
I guess that was too much to hope for...
You just need a Headband of Mental Superiority and not dumped INT and CHA to make good use of it. You can get by easily with 13 INT and 10 CHA. Once your get get your +2 Headband that is any one level appropriate Wizard spell you want. Of course you can combine this with say Eagle's Splendor to get an additional spell if you need one. And by the time you get your +6 Headband you'll be taking any 3 Wizard spells you want daily, which is super potent.
Problem:
a) HOMS costs almost 150,000 gp... like I said you need a game with plenty of cash about. Other casters can buy an awful lot of other gear for the cost of your 1 item
b) Using your logic
Any Character X + HOMS + BOPP = Superhero!
If you throw items at any character you can make them XL
c) Arcane Enlightenment allows you to swap out 1 SPELL every time you go up 1 LEVEL..... big difference from every day!!!
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I'm not seeing it. There are some strong classes in the ACG.
But there are classes just as strong or stronger in the CRB and APG too.
Sort of like every book having strong and weak classes. Not a big deal.
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I actually kina like it... I Like the Investigator, and the Hunter doesn't quite break the game.
I wonder why these CONSTANT bloat threads won't stop. I kinda want some popcorn as I watch everything catch on fire.
Orvill! I Summon Thee! Bring to us popcorn to feast upon!
If I may throw in on the Slayer vs. Rogue, I feel that the "Slayer" better embodies a "Killer" where as a Rogue better embodies a "Thief". Both in concept and mechanics, the Slayer has more martial capability, where the rogue has more general utility.He wanted a hunter (not the class) but didn't want the animal companion, favored enemy, favored terrain, or spells so ranger didn't work. He also wanted sneak attack and to deal with traps (making and disabling them) and he liked some of the rogue talents. Could he have done it differently? Sure. This was the way that he found worked best for him.
*Ahem*
Skirmisher Guide Urban Ranger
No spells.
No Animal Companion.
No Favored Enemy.
No Favored Terrain - well, Favored COMMUNITY, but not terrain.
You get a general "Choose an enemy you can see; you get a Bonus against that enemy until it's dead"
You form a bond with your group.
You get Hunter's Tricks instead of spells, like Distracting Attack or Rattling Strike.
Has Disable Device et all as Class Skills
Can't do anything about the Sneak Attack, but you can let him know that a Ranger is more than capable of doing exactly what he wanted, for future reference.
Slayer also works, obviously, but it's not the ONLY option. Just AN option.
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If I may throw in on the Slayer vs. Rogue, I feel that the "Slayer" better embodies a "Killer" where as a Rogue better embodies a "Thief". Both in concept and mechanics, the Slayer has more martial capability, where the rogue has more general utility.He wanted a hunter (not the class) but didn't want the animal companion, favored enemy, favored terrain, or spells so ranger didn't work. He also wanted sneak attack and to deal with traps (making and disabling them) and he liked some of the rogue talents. Could he have done it differently? Sure. This was the way that he found worked best for him.*Ahem*
Skirmisher Guide Urban Ranger
No spells.
No Animal Companion.
No Favored Enemy.
No Favored Terrain - well, Favored COMMUNITY, but not terrain.
You get a general "Choose an enemy you can see; you get a Bonus against that enemy until it's dead"
You form a bond with your group.
You get Hunter's Tricks instead of spells, like Distracting Attack or Rattling Strike.
Has Disable Device et all as Class Skills
Can't do anything about the Sneak Attack, but you can let him know that a Ranger is more than capable of doing exactly what he wanted, for future reference.
Slayer also works, obviously, but it's not the ONLY option. Just AN option.
He could have found several different ways. He just liked what the slayer offered. I'm sure there are at least a dozen different ways to accomplish similar things. That's what I love about Pathfinder and the addition of new books.
He could have found several different ways. He just liked what the slayer offered. I'm sure there are at least a dozen different ways to accomplish similar things. That's what I love about Pathfinder and the addition of new books.If I may throw in on the Slayer vs. Rogue, I feel that the "Slayer" better embodies a "Killer" where as a Rogue better embodies a "Thief". Both in concept and mechanics, the Slayer has more martial capability, where the rogue has more general utility.He wanted a hunter (not the class) but didn't want the animal companion, favored enemy, favored terrain, or spells so ranger didn't work. He also wanted sneak attack and to deal with traps (making and disabling them) and he liked some of the rogue talents. Could he have done it differently? Sure. This was the way that he found worked best for him.*Ahem*
Skirmisher Guide Urban Ranger
No spells.
No Animal Companion.
No Favored Enemy.
No Favored Terrain - well, Favored COMMUNITY, but not terrain.
You get a general "Choose an enemy you can see; you get a Bonus against that enemy until it's dead"
You form a bond with your group.
You get Hunter's Tricks instead of spells, like Distracting Attack or Rattling Strike.
Has Disable Device et all as Class Skills
Can't do anything about the Sneak Attack, but you can let him know that a Ranger is more than capable of doing exactly what he wanted, for future reference.
Slayer also works, obviously, but it's not the ONLY option. Just AN option.
Yeah, I just realized a Trapper Guide Deep Walker Ranger would pretty much exactly the same thing, possibly even better (emphasis on the traps).
This is why I like Archetypes a lot more than most Prestige Classes and 3.5's penchant for duplicate classes.
I really liked the Scout in 3.5, but it was very much a Ranger Lite class in a lot of ways.
Now, take your pick - Skirmisher, Skirmisher/Guide, Trapper, Trapper/Guide... no need to reinvent the wheel, just pick and choose your mods to the chassis and go.
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Regarding Bloat, my thoughts:
If I don't like a book I don't use it and it stops mattering to me.
If I do like a book, I use it and am glad Paizo made it.
Do I wish they'd make something I do like instead of the thing I don't like? Sure. But it's both selfish and unrealistic to expect every product to be a home-run based on my own personal tastes.
Given that more books is good, because it's either good and adds to my game or bad and its existence isn't relevant.
So I feel bloat is a nonissue.
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Also, a note on Bloat.
Wizards of the Coast had a printing rate of about 1 hardbound book every month.
Pathfinder has 1 hardbound book come out once every FOUR months.
Pathfinder has 1 64-page booklet and 1 32-page booklet come out every month, yes, but those booklets TOGETHER add up to at MOST 1/2 the size of each book that WOTC put out over the course of 3.5's lifespan.
The difference in Bloat between Pathfinder and WOTC is like the difference in bloat between Leia (Paizo) and Jabba (WOTC)
That's a mechanical consideration, not a concept one.
Not really. 'My character is reasonably competent' is a concept one.
The class is OP... but not for the reasons some people think (ie Arcane Enlightenment) which requires a very specific game set up and forces you to become V.MAD
The class is OP, or certain builds are OP?If the class is OP it would be likely to disrupt most games even without optimization. A build being OP is another thing altogether since someone with good system mastery can give certain GM's headaches.
I am still strolling so someone probably beat me to this but how?
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It is pretty easy to screw a wizard by taking bad options...Under your definition I think only summoner would qualify as OP.
The class is OP, or certain builds are OP?If the class is OP it would be likely to disrupt most games even without optimization. A build being OP is another thing altogether since someone with good system mastery can give certain GM's headaches.
\
I really don't see any class as OP yet. The closest is actually the summoner(maybe the master summoner), and at the same time I don't see it as the most powerful class. The floor is just so high on it.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just going to leave this right here.
And it was just as wrong then as it is now.
I'm just going to leave this right here.And it was just as wrong then as it is now.
I sort of agree with the bit about a sorcerer/wizard and another fighter/cleric being kind of unnecessary though.
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The Paizo mantra remains; "all you need are the CRB and if you GM, the Bestiary."
/End Bloat threads.
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The Paizo mantra remains; "all you need are the CRB and if you GM, the Bestiary."
/End Bloat threads.
You think but apprently those complaining about bloat . Are either being held at gunpoint forced to use new material. Or simply act like every new book means the death of Pathfinder as a whole.
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munch munch munch
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munch munch munch
OI! Share some with us, you greedy bastard! Some of us like to have popcorn with our entertainment too!
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munch munch munch
Oy! Orvill! I summoned you earlier! Well, your here now- thanks for the popcorn.
*Munch munch munch*
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Here are my predictions for upcoming bloat threads:
Giantslayer: Will Pathfinder Ever Recover?
PFO: Minor Rules Bloat or HUGE Rules Bloat?
Mouse Guard 2E: Is This The End Of Pathfinder As We Know It?
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Here are my predictions for upcoming bloat threads:
Giantslayer: Will Pathfinder Ever Recover?
PFO: Minor Rules Bloat or HUGE Rules Bloat?
Mouse Guard 2E: Is This The End Of Pathfinder As We Know It?
I have half a mind to start those threads to a) claim there is a new kobold Nostradamus, and b) See how many posts I can get going at the clear ragebait of it all before someone spoils the fun by posting a link to this thread and points out it was all $#!+s and giggles...
OH, And c) See how many people ignore that post and knee-jerk respond to the title and original posts even after the entire fraudulent concept has been revealed, because that would involve actually reading the replies.
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CRB Is Too Big: Fight Rules Bloat At its Source!
Big Hero Six: Ruining Pathfinder
The Lego Movie: Hey, let's leave the REALLY GOOD stuff out of Pathfinder and just put whatever f@**ing s+&! we want because WHO'S GONNA CARE THEY ONLY VOTE FOR THE S+$! THEIR KIDS WATCH I mean oh my f$@%ing god this is the worst Academy Awards year since f@#%ing ever and that is g+#&+&ned shameful considering what a good year it was for animation. They had a million wonderful options and they chose the most mediocre
Wait I think I got distracted. What was the topic, again?
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I am still strolling so someone probably beat me to this but how?The class is OP... but not for the reasons some people think (ie Arcane Enlightenment) which requires a very specific game set up and forces you to become V.MAD
The class is OP, or certain builds are OP?If the class is OP it would be likely to disrupt most games even without optimization. A build being OP is another thing altogether since someone with good system mastery can give certain GM's headaches.
'Cause you're a Wis caster whose getting a number of bonus spells based on Cha and the level of those spells is based on Int. It's an exceptionally powerful ability counterbalanced by making you need all three mental stats.
It's not much in initial investment though, as Anzyr showed.
If it is requiring 3 stats instead of one stat that makes it harder to pull off. I am still not seeing how it is OP.
I can see certain builds being OP, but I have not seen how the class is OP.
Pretty much my reaction. They might make better Wizards in the end-game, when they have all of those options on the table, but before then... *shrug*.
Before then they still have two sets of abilities, one of which they can change to pick up new abilities tailored to what they are likely to encounter, Hexes that are all day abilities, many of which are flexible and again can be tailored to a day's encounters, is still stealing the Cleric/Oracle list, and can pick Sorcerer/Wizard spells that are also suited to the given day. The Shaman's power is it's incredible flexibility, which is unmatched by any other class.
Also, a bigger hit die, 3/4th BAB, knows their whole spell list and can worry armor without worrying about ACF.
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It's... the.. END OF THE GAME AS WE KNOW IT... and I feel fiiine!
♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫
That's great, we're getting into "bloat," mate
Orcs, gnolls, and outer planes, an' grognards startin' to complain...
"Way back in my day games were simple, not insane!
We just needed one book - Pathfinder Core Book!
I don't want this Class, yo! Race, no! Feats, whoa!
Archetypes 'n' traits, and all these stupid' options that I hate!
Why would anybody want some rules to do a chase
In a populated city in the dead. of. night?
Next your gonna tell me that you've come up with stuff
Featured in a NEW. CO-DEX."
Thread by Thread, the neckbeards groanin', "done!" "ruined!" "nope!"
Listen' to 'em moan, quote:
"Uh-oh, overflow! Information overload!
Analysis paralysis, brain callouses!
Paizo's killing my fun, lettin' Pallies have guns
We were fine with swords and spears and maces, am I right? Right!"
Hate to tell ya, bloke, there's no bloat, not broke;
Options! ARE! ALRIGHT!!!
It's the end of the game as we know it!
It's th~e end of the game as we know it!
It's th~e end of the game as we know it!
And I feel fiiine...
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Sensory overload man! We're swimming in a quagmire of splat books feats and classes, we can't absorb it all! There's only one sane solution left!
BLOW IT UP!!!!
...And start a new edition.
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Sensory overload man! We're swimming in a quagmire of splat books feats and classes, we can't absorb it all! There's only one sane solution left!
BLOW IT UP!!!!
...And start a new edition.
The whole 'the only way is a new edition' thing is like saying, There are too many clothes in my closet, i dont know what to wear or what I have, so let me throw away all my clothers, and start over building a wardrobe.
Sane people suggest, reoganizing your closet (possibly buying nift organizers to display things better), or simply pairing down your wardrobe to the stuff you actually like, and look good on you.
Me, I like my huge closet with all sorts of clothes, and I'll thank you not to blow up MY closet too because you are unhappy with yours.
I just need the errata to come out soon.
Yes, if they could revamp their errata/FAQ system that would be great. As/is, we end up waiting on reprints for core and non-core very rarely see an FAQ.
