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Well normally I would say that there is a requirement for a Mad Inventor/Builder class, but with the release of Thunderscape: World of Aden you now have such a class. This being the Steamwright.
Other classes that might be useful:
1. A pure knowledge based Sage Class. There is nothing that fills this role in Pathfinder. Rogues are SKULLDUGGERS not scholars. Bards are performers and jack of all trades, not scholars. Wizards are masters of the arcane, not scholars. What we really need is an 8+int character class that is built around Skill abilities, probably getting bonus skill focuses and class abilities that enhance skills. A pure skill-buff style class.
2. A class that instead of learning spells, focuses on gaining supernatural and spell-like abilities. So instead of using spells they naturally get innate magical powers as they level up.
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I like the idea of a d6/wizard BA divine caster. Maybe give them 3 domains and the ability to spontaneously cast there domain spells as well has cure/inflict spells. Also give them lay on hands as well as channeling. I would say they would have simple weapons and light armor prof., 4+Int skill points, will as a good save, and maybe give them the paladin's ability to add cha to saves.
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1. A pure knowledge based Sage Class. There is nothing that fills this role in Pathfinder. Rogues are SKULLDUGGERS not scholars. Bards are performers and jack of all trades, not scholars. Wizards are masters of the arcane, not scholars. What we really need is an 8+int character class that is built around Skill abilities, probably getting bonus skill focuses and class abilities that enhance skills. A pure skill-buff style class.
Can't you do that with the Investigator pretty well? Lots of skill points, good class skill list including all Knowledge skills, add d6 to any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft roll if you're trained in the skill and use any Knowledge skill untrained? Many talents provide skill benefits, including Edetic Recollection (Bardic Lore Master) and Applied Engineering.
A Warden class that is the druid-equivalent of the inquisitor.
A class that uses Intelligence and other mental abilities to deal with combat and other hazards and obstructions. Kind of like a MacGuyver/Sherlock Holmes/Doctor Who/Locke Lamora/Veronica Mars-type class.
A luck-based class, possibly with a mechanic that steals luck by de-buffing opponents to gain buffs. For example, a pool of luck points equal to Charisma modifier, and points are regained by forcing opponents to make re-rolls; points are spent by making re-rolls.
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What are the Four Philosophies of Golarion for then?That is why I specifically mentioned that within the Golarion campaign setting, since the setting specifically prohibits clerics of ideals or philosophies.
For being ideas, concepts that people might follow instead of (or in addition to) deities. For example, the Whispering Way has a lot of clerics of Urgathoa... in part because their philosophy isn't enough to grant those spells.
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A Final Fantasy style summoner. What I mean is a summoner whose summons act more like blasts than battlefield control. Say you'd summon a fire elemental, and instead of being a monster with HP and attack sequences and such, it'd behave like Flaming Sphere and just roll around crashing into people. Instead of summoning a single large rat, which isn't something I can imagine any "iconic" summon magic doing, summon a swarm of rats for a little automatic damage plus a chance to inflict disease. There's spells that do things like this, but you could form a whole class around them with much less trouble than the summoner we have now.
No offense, but I think you could do this by just refluffing a normal magic-user. The example you gave of something behaving "like Flaming Sphere" could just be your flavoring of Flaming Sphere.
I'd allow it, even in my full tyrant princess regalia. :)
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A utility gish. None of the touch attack focus or action economy cheating or quirky spell list of the extant gishes. An actual EK substitute that can carry the noncombat load of a wizard for a group where nobody actually likes playing straight wizards, possibly through 25% or 33% early entry self only, save (harmless), and willing target only spells on a wizard list using 6 level medium BAB chassis with something like weapon training. Or maybe the ability to reduce the level of a spell by up to 33% at the expense of raising the casting time.
This feels a lot like a bard. Is there something you had in mind that a bard wouldn't work for here?
I desperately want a witch/druid hybrid. witches are so closely associated with their environments/surroundings that I can't believe that nothing has been done for combining these two yet.
A utility gish. None of the touch attack focus or action economy cheating or quirky spell list of the extant gishes. An actual EK substitute that can carry the noncombat load of a wizard for a group where nobody actually likes playing straight wizards, possibly through 25% or 33% early entry self only, save (harmless), and willing target only spells on a wizard list using 6 level medium BAB chassis with something like weapon training. Or maybe the ability to reduce the level of a spell by up to 33% at the expense of raising the casting time.This feels a lot like a bard. Is there something you had in mind that a bard wouldn't work for here?
Your straight jacketed into being an enchanter.
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Your straight jacketed into being an enchanter.A utility gish. None of the touch attack focus or action economy cheating or quirky spell list of the extant gishes. An actual EK substitute that can carry the noncombat load of a wizard for a group where nobody actually likes playing straight wizards, possibly through 25% or 33% early entry self only, save (harmless), and willing target only spells on a wizard list using 6 level medium BAB chassis with something like weapon training. Or maybe the ability to reduce the level of a spell by up to 33% at the expense of raising the casting time.This feels a lot like a bard. Is there something you had in mind that a bard wouldn't work for here?
Really? Why?
We always found the best use of my bard to be Haste/Good Hope/Inspire Courage. :)
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Your straight jacketed into being an enchanter.A utility gish. None of the touch attack focus or action economy cheating or quirky spell list of the extant gishes. An actual EK substitute that can carry the noncombat load of a wizard for a group where nobody actually likes playing straight wizards, possibly through 25% or 33% early entry self only, save (harmless), and willing target only spells on a wizard list using 6 level medium BAB chassis with something like weapon training. Or maybe the ability to reduce the level of a spell by up to 33% at the expense of raising the casting time.This feels a lot like a bard. Is there something you had in mind that a bard wouldn't work for here?
Summoner does it better anyway. They have most of the really useful utility list at lower spell levels than the wizard, can cast in armor, have 3/4 BAB, and have their choice of the most powerful companion ever or swift action summons.
How is this not the investigator?
A class that uses Intelligence and other mental abilities to deal with combat and other hazards and obstructions. Kind of like a MacGuyver/Sherlock Holmes/Doctor Who/Locke Lamora/Veronica Mars-type class.
I'm thinking of a class that doesn't use sneak attack. Most of the characters I mentioned are not good at all in combat, or at least causing damage in combat, but may use fun and interesting techniques, like setting up booby trap or using dirty tricks and items in the environment to overcome or hamper their opponents, or even just sabotaging their opponents' weapons and tools.
Maybe an archetype that replaces sneak attack?
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How is this not the investigator?
A class that uses Intelligence and other mental abilities to deal with combat and other hazards and obstructions. Kind of like a MacGuyver/Sherlock Holmes/Doctor Who/Locke Lamora/Veronica Mars-type class.
I'm thinking of a class that doesn't use sneak attack. Most of the characters I mentioned are not good at all in combat, or at least causing damage in combat, but may use fun and interesting techniques, like setting up booby trap or using dirty tricks and items in the environment to overcome or hamper their opponents, or even just sabotaging their opponents' weapons and tools.
Maybe an archetype that replaces sneak attack?
Investigator doesn't get sneak attack. They have studied strike, but using it is a finishing move if that. Studied Combat is the main draw of the class.
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A Witch+Druid hybrid class would interesting, we would call it a Wicca or Wiccan.
A Witch+Druid hybrid class would interesting, we would call it a Wicca or Wiccan.
oh that is a great example of a real-world equivalent! thanks!
when I first saw that the Shaman was a combo witch/oracle, I was left sort of nonplussed. I get that the patron/divine origins deal fits well, but to me it felt a little light. I realized after a lot of thought that what I always look for is "a more mystical druid" - where they're not so hardy, maybe don't have the woodlands-specific connection, and have no wild shape.
at the same time, I was trying to picture what a witch goes well with, and I had the thought that a lot of witch stories involve the witch been deeply involved with her environment - either controlling it, protecting it, or transforming it. I don't know what a final product of witch+druid would look like, but I think it could be very exciting.
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That sounds like a witch archetype. The witch spell list is already similar to the druid's, and the familiar is just a more subtle/mystical version of an animal companion. Animal patron is the obvious choice though about a third of the options would work including water and moon. Add 2-3 more nature themed hexes to choose from, like woodland stride; there's already a Feral Speech hex and the Animal Skin major hex for shapeshifting if you were interested. Then switch the spell type to "divine," with or without changing the casting stat to wisdom (I'd vote without given the number of people interested in an Int-based divine caster).
A Witch+Druid hybrid class would interesting, we would call it a Wicca or Wiccan.oh that is a great example of a real-world equivalent! thanks!
Please don't name a class after a modern religion.
Monk, druid, shaman, and dervish might even be too much but those are either a little less specific or typically refer to historical religious practices (even if there is a modern revival).
Wicca just means the religion as currently practiced, and too many people seem to use that term without understanding the religion in any more depth than "modern witch."
A shifter class that has hex like curses when they attack.
^Wouldn't Hexcrafter Magus built to focus on polymorphing spells work for this?
^Wouldn't Hexcrafter Magus built to focus on polymorphing spells work for this?
I guess if I wanted budget shifting.
That sounds like a witch archetype. The witch spell list is already similar to the druid's, and the familiar is just a more subtle/mystical version of an animal companion. Animal patron is the obvious choice though about a third of the options would work including water and moon. Add 2-3 more nature themed hexes to choose from, like woodland stride; there's already a Feral Speech hex and the Animal Skin major hex for shapeshifting if you were interested. Then switch the spell type to "divine," with or without changing the casting stat to wisdom (I'd vote without given the number of people interested in an Int-based divine caster).
That could be a really cool archetype, but that raises the question of how much is it archetype versus straight-up alternate class (either like the ninja/samurai party or the hybrid classes). My personal reasoning for wanting it more than an archetype is because, even with suggesting that there be a delicate natural mystic variant that doesn't wild shape, shapeshifting gets tossed right back into the mix. I think a druidy witch archetype IS a necessary archetype that definitely should happen, but I also think there's room for more variation out there too!
Please don't name a class after a modern religion.
I always admire how conscientious people on the paizo boards are. I agree, though I do think it's definitely worth mentioning as an inspiration source.
I don't get why some people want a "D6 Divine Caster" when you already have the Cleric.
Then you add in the following archetypes and i don't see how that concept is missing.
Cloistered Cleric
Scroll Scholar
Evangelist
Ecclesitheurge
You already have the ability to use the "D6 Divine Caster" in concept. Just you know better than what you want.
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Eh, the d6 divine caster concept isn't really well played by any of those except the Ecclesitheurge.
A lot of cleric archetypes are traps that are actually worse than a core cleric, the cloistered is one of them.
IMO, cloistered cleric should get more spells per day, not less.
My problem with a casting focused Divine Caster (d6 hit die, 1/2 BAB, possibly more skill points) is that it works something like this.
"I'm playing a caster Cleric. I'm plenty strong and am a strong asset to the party. But look at this BAB and all these extra hit points I'm not doing anything with. What the hell? I don't want melee capabilities that I'm not using anyways, I want more casting power!"
If you want a Cleric archetype that loses out on hit points and proficiencies for a couple gimmick features, that's fine. I just don't see a point of making Clerics even stronger than they already are. The Cleric is a plenty strong (but bland) class even ignoring the BAB and higher-than-Wizard-hit-die. Trading those away for even more power seems foolish.
Perhaps I falsely believe the Cleric stronger than it is. It's proven to be plenty capable in my games between somewhat usable domain powers and spells. The BAB and proficiencies only seem to help the early-early levels.
My problem with a casting focused Divine Caster (d6 hit die, 1/2 BAB, possibly more skill points) is that it works something like this.
"I'm playing a caster Cleric. I'm plenty strong and am a strong asset to the party. But look at this BAB and all these extra hit points I'm not doing anything with. What the hell? I don't want melee capabilities that I'm not using anyways, I want more casting power!"
If you want a Cleric archetype that loses out on hit points and proficiencies for a couple gimmick features, that's fine. I just don't see a point of making Clerics even stronger than they already are. The Cleric is a plenty strong (but bland) class even ignoring the BAB and higher-than-Wizard-hit-die. Trading those away for even more power seems foolish.
Perhaps I falsely believe the Cleric stronger than it is. It's proven to be plenty capable in my games between somewhat usable domain powers and spells. The BAB and proficiencies only seem to help the early-early levels.
Clerics are mostly strong because they can buff their own combat abilities. Once you stop looking into buffing yourself, it becomes a little bit harder to focus on casting. Not to say you can'ty do it, but the spell list is a little barren.
I don't get why some people want a "D6 Divine Caster" when you already have the Cleric.
Then you add in the following archetypes and i don't see how that concept is missing.
Cloistered Cleric
Scroll Scholar
Evangelist
EcclesitheurgeYou already have the ability to use the "D6 Divine Caster" in concept. Just you know better than what you want.
A lot of those are pretty awful and the Evangelist is just as Mix It Up in Melee as any other Cleric.
The Ecclesitheurge doesn't patch the issues found with running a more purely castery Cleric.
Well a d6 1/2 BAB divine caster could just be a character that can prepare from the cleric, druid, ranger, and paladin list. Let's say they get 2 floating domains (as in they can switch them out). Oh and maybe wildshape that progresses half as fast as a druids.
Call it a mystic or something.
For those wanting a d6 divine, what's wrong with a blackened curse oracle? The -4 to weapon attacks negates your 3/4 BAB, and gives you nice fire spells. Pick a caster focused mystery, and maybe the dual cursed archetype, and you have a divine class that is caster focused.
Spontaneous.
Edit: Okay so, I've done that before and found it interesting but I just really dislike spontaneous casting for a Divine caster.
I don't get why some people want a "D6 Divine Caster" when you already have the Cleric.
Then you add in the following archetypes and i don't see how that concept is missing.
Cloistered Cleric
Scroll Scholar
Evangelist
EcclesitheurgeYou already have the ability to use the "D6 Divine Caster" in concept. Just you know better than what you want.
A lot of those are pretty awful and the Evangelist is just as Mix It Up in Melee as any other Cleric.
The Ecclesitheurge doesn't patch the issues found with running a more purely castery Cleric.
Those archetypes being awful or not is a matter of opinion.
I just don't see how playing the base Cleric somehow doesn't fit the bill for full divine caster that doesn't have to fight or where armor.
Just because you have a 3/4 BAB and can where armor doesn't mean you have to.
The Cleric spell list alot more than just self buffs for combat.
It's got protective magic, summoning, healing, enchantments, various types of damage spells, and crowd control.
With plenty of options for unarmored clerics like magic vestments, shield of faith, etc.
So base Cleric is already the concept being looked for it just happens to also have a D8 Hit Dice and 3/4 BAB.
Then you use Ecclesitheurge and get rid of the armor and weapons for more versatility with your domains and a holy symbol that lets you cast a spell you know (hint all of them) and a free item creation feat for making that symbol better.
The Ecclesitheurge is exactly what is being asked for. A Cleric that doesn't use weapons or armor that is better at casting.
Those archetypes being awful or not is a matter of opinion.I just don't see how playing the base Cleric somehow doesn't fit the bill for full divine caster that doesn't have to fight or where armor.
Just because you have a 3/4 BAB and can where armor doesn't mean you have to.
No but it takes up design space for more interesting class features that would be more appropriate for an actual unarmored d6 1/2 BAB Priest.
The Cleric spell list alot more than just self buffs for combat.It's got protective magic, summoning, healing, enchantments, various types of damage spells, and crowd control.
Not really. It's definitely got protective magic, healing, and summoning. Their damage spells are very inefficient, crowd control options don't appear until much later in the progression and their enchantments are incredibly limited.
Then you use Ecclesitheurge and get rid of the armor and weapons for more versatility with your domains and a holy symbol that lets you cast a spell you know (hint all of them) and a free item creation feat for making that symbol better.
You get more spells. Woop de doo. It doesn't solve the issues of the Cleric list being built for a 3/4ths BAB, d8 HP, and Armor/Weapon proficiencies to make use of a great number of spells most efficiently.
The Ecclesitheurge is exactly what is being asked for. A Cleric that doesn't use weapons or armor that is better at casting.
No, it really isn't. I've tried these so called options that are "Exactly what I am asking for" and they aren't.
Have you tried them? Because its really damn noticeable trying to stretch the Cleric list into a full time Caster rather than a Martial/Caster hybrid.
I don't get why some people want a "D6 Divine Caster" when you already have the Cleric.
Then you add in the following archetypes and i don't see how that concept is missing.
Cloistered Cleric
Scroll Scholar
Evangelist
EcclesitheurgeYou already have the ability to use the "D6 Divine Caster" in concept. Just you know better than what you want.
A lot of those are pretty awful and the Evangelist is just as Mix It Up in Melee as any other Cleric.
The Ecclesitheurge doesn't patch the issues found with running a more purely castery Cleric.
Those archetypes being awful or not is a matter of opinion.
I just don't see how playing the base Cleric somehow doesn't fit the bill for full divine caster that doesn't have to fight or where armor.
Just because you have a 3/4 BAB and can where armor doesn't mean you have to.
The Cleric spell list alot more than just self buffs for combat.
It's got protective magic, summoning, healing, enchantments, various types of damage spells, and crowd control.
With plenty of options for unarmored clerics like magic vestments, shield of faith, etc.
So base Cleric is already the concept being looked for it just happens to also have a D8 Hit Dice and 3/4 BAB.
Then you use Ecclesitheurge and get rid of the armor and weapons for more versatility with your domains and a holy symbol that lets you cast a spell you know (hint all of them) and a free item creation feat for making that symbol better.
The Ecclesitheurge is exactly what is being asked for. A Cleric that doesn't use weapons or armor that is better at casting.
I just want that archetype to be released again in print with the whole abilities in tact.
You are right though, it does have a lot of what people are asking for. Marshmallow fallacy is once again confirmed.
The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?
I may be totally alone in this, but I would like to see a d6 9 level bard. I've never really believed the bard performance mechanic, and miss the concept of bards from legends as being great healers and enchanters--not melee'ers.
What does not believing the performance mechanic mean?
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I may be totally alone in this, but I would like to see a d6 9 level bard. I've never really believed the bard performance mechanic, and miss the concept of bards from legends as being great healers and enchanters--not melee'ers.
A Druid archetype to replicate the older Bard from 1e would be quite interesting. That or a Fochlucan Lyrist PrC from 3.5 minus the ridiculous BAB that was supposed to make up for multiclassing.
Ignore this if it's already been hashed out. I'd like a proper eldritch knight. Less blaster magus, more robust caster with a sword that doesn't suck and doesn't fall victim to the action economy nightmare the current EK demands. Summoners are decent in their no ACP with armor deal and in the robust aspect of things but still too focused. It really should be more a straight wizard/fighter hybrid. Emphasize the knight aspect and put in some samurai-like orders that mix in with various organizations or do something with a nobility aspect.
The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?
The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.
So with all the classes that exist in the game it's getting harder and harder to find general character concepts that aren't doable under the current system. Still, I think there are certain things which have been missed.
1)A magical rogue: Basically I think we need a base class to do for the arcane trickster what the magus did for the eldritch knight. This is, in my opinion, the most fundamental and obvious of the missing classes.
Thoughts?
So like the Spell thief?
So like the Spell thief?So with all the classes that exist in the game it's getting harder and harder to find general character concepts that aren't doable under the current system. Still, I think there are certain things which have been missed.
1)A magical rogue: Basically I think we need a base class to do for the arcane trickster what the magus did for the eldritch knight. This is, in my opinion, the most fundamental and obvious of the missing classes.
Thoughts?
Basically, though to me, the concept of a base class magical rogue should probably have a redued sneak attack but is given class features that let them gain sneak attack in new ways that bend the rules.
magic is there to bend the rules of reality, so why not bend the rules of sneak attack in new and interesting ways?
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The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.
Ah so its used to shame folks when they're upset because the mechanics are lacking.
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The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.
There's also the famous stormwind fallacy, which is the fallacious belief that optimization and roleplay have to run counter to each-other.
Most of us don't want our options to be optimal, we just want it to be close enough that if you're really really good you can match what other people will get without effort.
Not that it matters in this case. EK lost its niche, pure and simple.
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Ah so its used to shame folks when they're upset because the mechanics are lacking.The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.
I love rogues!
I don't understand what all these "extracts" are that I never use, but I really enjoy these useful talents, bonuses to skills, and a massive increase to to-hit and damage through studied combat. The idea that my rogue uses her skill to out-wit her way through combat is amazing.
I understand that there is some NPC class out there with the same name, but after I looked it over it just seems worse than what I am using even when ignoring half of the class features.
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Ah so its used to shame folks when they're upset because the mechanics are lacking.The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.I love rogues!
I don't understand what all these "extracts" are that I never use, but I really enjoy these useful talents, bonuses to skills, and a massive increase to to-hit and damage through studied combat. The idea that my rogue uses her skill to out-wit her way through combat is amazing.
I understand that there is some NPC class out there with the same name, but after I looked it over it just seems worse than what I am using even when ignoring half of the class features.
I'm playing a "rogue" right now too. She figured out how to write down certain "last basically all day" extracts then forget that's how she got those benefits. Works pretty well. Who knew an int of 22 and the punch-in-the-face technique could work together so well?
I'm playing a "rogue" right now too. She figured out how to write down certain "last basically all day" extracts then forget that's how she got those benefits. Works pretty well. Who knew an int of 22 and the punch-in-the-face technique could work together so well?Ah so its used to shame folks when they're upset because the mechanics are lacking.The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.I love rogues!
I don't understand what all these "extracts" are that I never use, but I really enjoy these useful talents, bonuses to skills, and a massive increase to to-hit and damage through studied combat. The idea that my rogue uses her skill to out-wit her way through combat is amazing.
I understand that there is some NPC class out there with the same name, but after I looked it over it just seems worse than what I am using even when ignoring half of the class features.
One way to play that is to convince yourself that she just steals potions all of the time.
To the above;
Sleuth much?
Ah so its used to shame folks when they're upset because the mechanics are lacking.The hell is a Marshmallow fallacy?The notion that there are no means to facilitate a character concept because the means that exist are considered not optimal and thus may as well not exist.
Essentially, I coined it during a discussion about fighter types who get 4+ skills and their usefulness.
It was like the tactician fighter didn't exist because he wasn't good enough, therefore Paizo failed them somehow.