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I've been playing Core a lot lately and I wanted to share my experience so far.
Core vs Existing
Core so far has been a benefit to our lodge. As one of the founding members of our lodge, there's very little I have left that I can play in the existing mode. We have maybe 1-2 tables of players who have played so many scenarios that we can't organize game with these players due to scenario overlap. What this led to was our players doing APs, modules, or other games entirely if they were to attend at all...some just gave up coming. Now with Core our veterans can play again and another table of pathfinder runs. We were down to about three tables a week, but now due to Core we can play 5-6 tables a week again. Players who aren't as restricted on games typically play wherever there's an open slot (core or existing) without complaint.
Replays
Replays were nothing new to our area. We were one of the lodges who interpreted the replay rule as more permissive until its lockdown, so we had already developed a good culture around replays: replay only to fill a table, letting the new players drive the narrative of the story, never spoiling the plot. When we had a table of mostly veteran players who all completed the scenario before, we have had a few instances where GMs gloss over or simplify encounters that they felt were "easy" or "boring". Our group talked about it, and since then it hasn't been a problem.
Class Viability
I saw this in another thread:
How good is core barbarian?It's in the playable half but you still require other caster classes because spell sunder isn't core.
The other day I played one of the newest scenarios, #6-12, in the existing mode. I haven't been able to play any of my existing mode characters for a long time, so I played my necromancer wizard. I had arrived late, and the rest of the table had already figured out their characters. it was a table full of players with excellent mastery of the system, so everyone had well optimized characters. In fact, every single character had either a full level animal companion, mount, or eidolon.
It was one of the worst gaming experiences I've had in a long time.
- 1) There was absolutely no challenge. Every character was what some people would call "viable" and other would call "broken". Every single character could have soloed that entire encounter.
2) In total, we had 15 creatures fielded by our side by the end of the night. We had enough disposable HP and attacks that our main characters wouldn't have to attack if we didn't want to.
3) An eidolon trivialized two of the encounters. what might have required thinking, teamwork, we were able to hand-wave bypass.
4) Because every character was so powerful, combat was over in less than a round save for the final encounter. That took three, due to the GM going a bit off script and tripling the enemy threat. We barely got scratched.
To think that any even semi-serious build of a barbarian isn't viable let alone "playable" is laughable. This is a team game. Classes do not the ability to solo an encounter for them to be "viable". Every class can be valuable in a Pathfinder party.To prove this point, many of our area's veteran players have chosen to try to make the most of "un-viable" core classes, or do "less optimized" routes. This has included:
- 1) Gleery, My rogue/wizard going arcane trickster,
2) Nili'Merithas, a shillelagh quarterstaff wielding monk,
3) Several two weapon fighting or switch hitting dwarven rangers,
4) A cleric going loremaster,
5) A bard with 13 Charisma.
So far this group (+/- a player from time to time) has had tremendous success. Aside from a poorly executed battle in Tian Xia due to some poor tactical decisions (which we eventually turned around), we've made it through the Blackros estates, plunged the depths of Cassomir, and are on our way through Osirion presently with an intention of completing requests for the Blackros family shortly.
Other Thoughts
Some additional random thoughts:
- Positioning, flanking, and teamwork provide important bonuses so we take advantage of them.
- Combat takes usually two to four rounds and has been very survivable.
- Over all, we've not had any trouble finishing scenarios. If anyone has suggestions of the most difficult scenarios for us to tackle, we'd be happy to take them on.
- Rules questions basically don't happen. If a player says they're a fighter, or a bard, or a wizard, I know exactly what to expect. I know all the feats in use. We have a single book to look at if we do have a question.
- Characters don't need to start with a 20 in a stat to be effective. Having at least a couple ways to contribute to the party has been most effective for us. The difference in being a single minded murder monster and a well rounded character is about a +1 to hit and 1-3 damage an attack - not a big deal. This lets them help with range, melee, spells, and/or skills instead of one of the above.
- Plan to be good at least one non-combat skill that everyone needs: diplomacy, survival, perception, knowledge, umd. A well rounded group of skills has helped us overcome a number of scenarios.
- Bring utility scrolls, potions, and wands (more than just a CLW wand). Actually use that prestige to get them, if you'd rather not spend the gold. More, if possible. If you can't use it, likely someone else in the party can.
- Many of our martials haven't even bothered with power attack or deadly aim yet. We seem to do enough damage as is.
- We're all ready to overcome DR. Masterwork items and oil of bless weapon or magic weapon may take a round to get ready, but it's worth it.
- Now that wizards/sorcerers are the only source for many spells, I expect to see more of them.
Summary
For the first time in a long time I'm regularly looking forward to my games. I know I have something I can play. I know that, at least with my playgroup, everyone will have a chance to contribute to each fight.
Thank you for this mode!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Glad you're having fun! I haven't had a chance to try out a Core game yet (in fact, between a funeral and skipping a local convention in favor of Valentine's day and a few other scheduling issues, I haven't been able to play at all in weeks), but I'm curious to see what it'll be like.
Every class can be valuable in a Pathfinder party.To prove this point, many of our area's veteran players have chosen to try to make the most of "un-viable" core classes, or do "less optimized" routes. This has included:
1) Gleery, My rogue/wizard going arcane trickster,
2) Nili'Merithas, a shillelagh quarterstaff wielding monk,
3) Several two weapon fighting or switch hitting dwarven rangers,
4) A cleric going loremaster,
5) A bard with 13 Charisma.
I don't understand what you're "proving" here. I mean, it sounds like you're looking to disprove the claims of the usual "rogues and monks suck" crowd, but...
Well, you took the rogue and mixed it with what that same crowd calls the most powerful class in the game, then took the monk and (at no small cost!) UMD'd your way into a druid spell, then put them in a party with three classes that range from "decent" to "one of the strongest".
If your method of making a rogue work is to replace half of it with the strongest class in the game, and your method of making a monk work is to spend a feat, a trait, and some wealth to reach into another of the strongest classes in the game, then I think you're proving a very different thing than you think you are.
Maybe focus less on the retributive witch-hunt and more on the awesome fun you're having, eh? I gotta say, I grin every time I think about that flurry-of-shillelagh build; one of the cleverest things I've seen in a long time. :) Super cool, and I'm very interested in hearing more about her experiences through the levels.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Thanks for sharing Glav! I've been having fun as well. I posted this in another thread, but I think it bears repeating (and echoing what you said already).
There have been virtually no rules questions at any of the Core tables I have played at or run. The only question that wasn't answered with a quick flip through the CRB was if half-elves were susceptible to ghoul paralysis. The GM ended up Googling it, finding a comment by JJ, and running with that.
This is a huge plus for Core campaign--in the dozen plus games I have participated in there have been virtually zero rules debates. This means zero play time eaten away by complicated or controversial questions. All of our table time is just for playing, which is a refreshing change. By removing all those hundreds of pages of material that is legal in PFS, the amount of common rules problems is significantly diminished.
I foresee Core convention play being a lot quicker than PFS, which is a great thing, especially for GMs that are new at running at conventions. I will be recommending people interested in GMing to start with Core and then move into PFS, it's less prone to inducing headaches from everything I've seen thus far.
For me, having done "Core" before when it wasn't an official thing (we just agreed to limit ourselves as a group):
In Core: More pressure to optimize due to limited effectiveness. Lots of pressure for someone to play a Cleric since CLW wand classes are Bard/Druid/Paladin. Two of those don't want to heal and the other is traditionally a weak class in Core.
In Standard: I can play something truly unique, due to options, and still have it turn out OK. But yeah, I can spend days on just coming up with interesting ideas or fiddling with Herolab, since I know pretty much anything I can come up with must exist somehow.
For example: I have an Inquisitor with a spear who gave up inquisitions for the Slayer talent to study a target (which simplified playing him a little). I'm usually the party healer and diplomat/intimidator (marginal in combat)
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*cough*Our standard party comp is bard archer, 1-2 rangers, monk with UMD, and rogue/wizard multiclass.
No primary healers, but everyone can use a wand. It's been sufficient to get through the lower levels. We'll see how it holds up in the 4-5 / 6-7 subtier though.
I do appreciate the healing when you are with us Finnius, but I think I have journeyed more often without you than with you. Your wide base of knowledge is also of great use when you travel with us. Perhaps you will be able to join us as we travel out on the sands of the Osirioni desert.
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I do appreciate the healing when you are with us Finnius, but I think I have journeyed more often without you than with you. Your wide base of knowledge is also of great use when you travel with us. Perhaps you will be able to join us as we travel out on the sands of the Osirioni desert.*cough*Our standard party comp is bard archer, 1-2 rangers, monk with UMD, and rogue/wizard multiclass.
No primary healers, but everyone can use a wand. It's been sufficient to get through the lower levels. We'll see how it holds up in the 4-5 / 6-7 subtier though.
I know, I've been stuck at the lodge more often then I've been out in the field. It is as my grandfather has always said, "They will pay you more for a headache then they do a backache." I don't know about the desert but perhaps an exception could be made. I hear they have some fantastic ruins in Osirion!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I wouldn't consider Finnius a primary healer by any means. Something like four channels a day and you typically use your spell slots for something beneficial besides healing? Finnius is more of a party wizard than anything. What with those astronomical Knowledge checks and all.
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I do have a nice wand that I could use on you to make the trip much more comfortable, I normally only use it on Nili and I, but I'd make an exception if you don't have your own methods of protecting yourself from the heat.
It would not be the heat... The sand that gets everywhere. Ugh!
I wouldn't consider Finnius a primary healer by any means. Something like four channels a day and you typically use your spell slots for something beneficial besides healing? Finnius is more of a party wizard than anything. What with those astronomical Knowledge checks and all.
While I know a decent amount about the movement of the stars, I would never call my knowledge base as astronomical. Not yet at least...
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Right now, my basic view is that Id like to give it an honest try, but so far I've not had the chance until around Apr.
My main concerns are that Id rather wait to have definitive, complete answers, (right now everything seems a bit up in the air or spread out through various blogs and posts), and that my groups are all kind of on hold due to work.
Out of 10ish I've talk too, only 1 player is, so far, willing to give it a go. We will see.
I'm also a bit concerned that this will be just another band aid for PFS in general, covering up some of the issues and further postponing actual fixes, but time will tell.
I have built a character, but not had the chance to play or to run.
Again, not having actually played Core, save from back in the day before much material was out, it was ok, but at the same time disappointing not being able to use options I was really excited to try. I say this because I tend to purchase a lot with using it in PFS in mind, (mostly). I hope down the road that more general options are opened up, limited but more. It would be cool for each of the Core Classes to have say 2 (and only 2) Archetypes to pick from for some customization. Possibly the Oracle class added.