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What? How did his comment imply that at all? He simply said how he would rule for somebody holding an action to react to a breath weapon.You think that a open ended trigger like "if he don't do X" is a valid trigger?
Were I the GM in this situation, as an off-the-cuff ruling I would let the character move with the readied action. However, I'm not entirely comfortable with a readied action being the substitute for a saving throw, so I would instead give the PC the benefits of evasion (or the equivalent for a Fortitude or Will save) for the effect. If the PC already had evasion, I'd give'em improved evasion or a bonus on the save as appropriate.
As a turn-based game, Pathfinder RPG can sometimes present some strange strategies that result from the mechanic of taking turns. Hopefully this kind of compromise would be amenable to both the GM and the players.
You have noticed the question mark?
It is a question, not a statement. I am asking John his opinion.
Were I the GM in this situation, as an off-the-cuff ruling I would let the character move with the readied action. However, I'm not entirely comfortable with a readied action being the substitute for a saving throw, so I would instead give the PC the benefits of evasion (or the equivalent for a Fortitude or Will save) for the effect. If the PC already had evasion, I'd give'em improved evasion or a bonus on the save as appropriate.
As a turn-based game, Pathfinder RPG can sometimes present some strange strategies that result from the mechanic of taking turns. Hopefully this kind of compromise would be amenable to both the GM and the players.
Seems like a decent compromise. Would you let the dragon retarget its blast in line with this? (In case the fleeing character is someone the dragon just hates enough to target separately.)
Personally, I still think that readying to flee is in the long run not going to work. Opportunity cost is going to bite you sooner or later. Either do something or just run yourself out of the encounter. The only scenario I can think of where this would be actually viable is if the one doing this is some sort of high-value target, someone enemies just love to focus on. HVT runs around screaming his head off while the rest of the party just beats up on the stuff targeting him.
I just feel that it would be highly unfair. If I'm out of range then I spent my entire turn to dodge the breath weapon. It's kinda like total defending and then moving into position, I'm spending my entire turn to not get hit. And if I was still in range I'd still get hit and have wasted my turn for nothing. Anything less and I'd feel the GM was breaking rules.There are no rules for this situation for the d.m.to break
Yes there is. I and my party are all grouped up. I ready an action to move if dragon does breath weapon on us. Dragon goes to breath weapon triggering my readied action, I move away from my party so that I can't be hit by the breath weapon if the dragon wants to hit the rest of the party. Dragon breath weapons the party. I, not being in range of the breath weapon, take no damage. Otherwise you're saying that a character OUTSIDE THE AOE is still taking damage. Had I moved there on my normal turn you'd have no problem saying I'm not in the AoE and don't have to worry about it at all, but if I used a readied action to accomplish the same thing, all of a sudden you think I'm deserving of being affected by the AoE. So the rule you are breaking is having someone outside the AoE be effected by the AoE.
Yes there is. I and my party are all grouped up. I ready an action to move if dragon does breath weapon on us. Dragon goes to breath weapon triggering my readied action, I move away from my party so that I can't be hit by the breath weapon if the dragon wants to hit the rest of the party. Dragon breath weapons the party. I, not being in range of the breath weapon, take no damage. Otherwise you're saying that a character OUTSIDE THE AOE is still taking damage. Had I moved there on my normal turn you'd have no problem saying I'm not in the AoE and don't have to worry about it at all, but if I used a readied action to accomplish the same thing, all of a sudden you think I'm deserving of being affected by the AoE. So the rule you are breaking is having someone outside the AoE be effected by the AoE.I just feel that it would be highly unfair. If I'm out of range then I spent my entire turn to dodge the breath weapon. It's kinda like total defending and then moving into position, I'm spending my entire turn to not get hit. And if I was still in range I'd still get hit and have wasted my turn for nothing. Anything less and I'd feel the GM was breaking rules.There are no rules for this situation for the d.m.to break
While that is certainly a valid interpretation and a GM could rule that (in which case you avoid the breath weapon entirely), the GM could also rule that your readied action goes off immediately before the dragon starts breathing. However, you don't have all that much time to actually move out of the way before the weapon hits you, so you may or may not still be in the AoE in the process of performing your readied move, based on how quickly you reacted to seeing the dragon about to unleash his weapon (e.g. reflex save). If you make the reflex save, it means you reacted quickly enough to get out of the AoE and are therefore unaffected, otherwise you weren't quick enough.
I'm not saying that's how I would personally rule it, but that's how I could see (fluff-wise) John's ruling working out. Main issue with that is that usually the readied action finishes before the triggering action takes place ("The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."). I would personally rule it that your readied move would let you escape from the cluster and avoid the breath weapon entirely if you moved out of the AoE. I would not, however, say what the AoE was -- you'd have to guess that yourself. After all, all you know is that the dragon is about to use its breath weapon; you have no information as to where (although you can usually make a pretty good guess).
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Main issue with that is that usually the readied action finishes before the triggering action takes place ("The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."). I would personally rule it that your readied move would let you escape from the cluster and avoid the breath weapon entirely if you moved out of the AoE. I would not, however, say what the AoE was -- you'd have to guess that yourself. After all, all you know is that the dragon is about to use its breath weapon; you have no information as to where (although you can usually make a pretty good guess).
See this is like my whole point. My readied action takes place before the dragon's breath weapon, since that was my trigger. The dragon is free to aim that breath weapon where ever he wants after my action. If I'm still in range he can hit me. The only idea for this is either to be the only person in range and have him use the breath weapon on me and then duck for cover so no one is in range. OR to be able to jump away from my party because... I want to be cool and do it at the last possible moment?
The biggest thing to me is that NO ONE has a problem with me moving on my turn away from the party and avoiding the AoE breath attack. But if I ready part of my turn for something that may not happen TO DO THE EXACT THING I COULD HAVE DONE WITH THE SECOND HALF OF MY TURN INSTEAD OF READYING THIS ACTION, and now all of a sudden everyone has issues with this. You're not avoiding any saving throw any more than moving on your own earlier turn is avoiding a saving throw.Are readied actions "strong?" YES because you're gambling on the future, they better be worth it when it pays off. Are readied actions broken or allowing you to do something you couldn't ordinarily do? NO. You can move on your turn to be out of targeting. You can hit enemies on your turn and 5ft step away. But for some reason if readied actions are involved everyone seems to freak out and say it's too OP
@Diego Rossi - Ah. You responding to his unrelated quote is what confused me.
I move away from my party so that I can't be hit by the breath weapon if the dragon wants to hit the rest of the party. Dragon breath weapons the party. I, not being in range of the breath weapon, take no damage. Otherwise you're saying that a character OUTSIDE THE AOE is still taking damage. Had I moved there on my normal turn you'd have no problem saying I'm not in the AoE and don't have to worry about it at all, but if I used a readied action to accomplish the same thing, all of a sudden you think I'm deserving of being affected by the AoE. So the rule you are breaking is having someone outside the AoE be effected by the AoE.
I don't think you're grocking when people are objecting.
I can't be hit by the breath weapon if the dragon wants to hit the rest of the party
With the IF there you're safe but... why not just move and then do something, or move twice and get even further away?
But lets remove the if. Maybe you smashed the dragons eggs or thought that showing up wearing dragonscale armor was a good idea. You ready an action to run away. The dragon starts to breathe. Your ready action goes off... and the rules are either silent or broken. the dragon can still breathe on you if they want because she hasn't breathed yet. There isn't a time in between the dragon picking its squares and the fire showing up: they happen at the exact same instant. If it decides to roast as many as possible, it does so. If it doesn't like you, you're toast. Readying an action is either harmeful or useless.
Worse, there's techgnically no rule locking the dragon into the breath weapon. Nothing says the dragon can't inhale, adapt to his new condition by walking over, and then breathing because we have no rules for interrupting actions other than spells.
Readying an action like that either makes no sense or runs into a timey whimey ball.
The IF is the big thing there. IF the dragon
BNW and Chess Pwn, I'm pretty sure you two are talking past each other.
Chess Pwn is saying: If I ready an action to move when the dragon uses its breath weapon, then he gets to move, but the dragon still gets to select its target squares afterword, which may or may not include you.
BNW is talking about: If the dragon has already selected its target squares, then you already missed your opportunity to move with a readied action.
(Assuming I'm correctly understanding what each of you are saying).
BNW and Chess Pwn, I'm pretty sure you two are talking past each other.
Chess Pwn is saying: If I ready an action to move when the dragon uses its breath weapon, then he gets to move, but the dragon still gets to select its target squares afterword, which may or may not include you.
BNW is talking about: If the dragon has already selected its target squares, then you already missed your opportunity to move with a readied action.
(Assuming I'm correctly understanding what each of you are saying).
Im not quite sure how chess would feel cheated out of anything with his action then.
Im not quite sure how chess would feel cheated out of anything with his action then.BNW and Chess Pwn, I'm pretty sure you two are talking past each other.
Chess Pwn is saying: If I ready an action to move when the dragon uses its breath weapon, then he gets to move, but the dragon still gets to select its target squares afterword, which may or may not include you.
BNW is talking about: If the dragon has already selected its target squares, then you already missed your opportunity to move with a readied action.
(Assuming I'm correctly understanding what each of you are saying).
Because if after moving away, the dragon still got to breath on his party AND he still took damage too. Or he moved around a corner and still took damage, that would be unfair.
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I move away from my party so that I can't be hit by the breath weapon if the dragon wants to hit the rest of the party. Dragon breath weapons the party. I, not being in range of the breath weapon, take no damage. Otherwise you're saying that a character OUTSIDE THE AOE is still taking damage. Had I moved there on my normal turn you'd have no problem saying I'm not in the AoE and don't have to worry about it at all, but if I used a readied action to accomplish the same thing, all of a sudden you think I'm deserving of being affected by the AoE. So the rule you are breaking is having someone outside the AoE be effected by the AoE.I don't think you're grocking when people are objecting.
I can't be hit by the breath weapon if the dragon wants to hit the rest of the party
With the IF there you're safe but... why not just move and then do something, or move twice and get even further away?
But lets remove the if. Maybe you smashed the dragons eggs or thought that showing up wearing dragonscale armor was a good idea. You ready an action to run away. The dragon starts to breathe. Your ready action goes off... and the rules are either silent or broken. the dragon can still breathe on you if they want because she hasn't breathed yet. There isn't a time in between the dragon picking its squares and the fire showing up: they happen at the exact same instant. If it decides to roast as many as possible, it does so. If it doesn't like you, you're toast. Readying an action is either harmeful or useless.
Worse, there's techgnically no rule locking the dragon into the breath weapon. Nothing says the dragon can't inhale, adapt to his new condition by walking over, and then breathing because we have no rules for interrupting actions other than spells.
Readying an action like that either makes no sense or runs into a timey whimey ball.
The IF is the big thing there. IF the dragon
Readying the action don't necessarily mean he is acting at the last moment. While our game rules use a turn based system for our character the action happen more or less simultaneously.
The fighter isn't making a single swing with his sword, or 4 if he has a high enough level. He is making several attack, parries, feints in those 6 seconds. Simply he has only 1 (or 4) real chances to connect.So in the case of a readied action to move away from the group to avoid a breath weapon, in the in game world the character isn't staying near the group gazing the dragon and then in a split second moving by 30'.
Probably he is looking the dragon for a couple of seconds or even less to see if he is moving toward the party, probably with the intention to use his breath weapon, and then he start to move toward what he think is a safe area.
The rules try to depict that kind of action in a turn based system. it don't work perfectly but is a reasonable approximation and it should allow the character to avoid the breath weapon.
John suggestion is a good homerule, but from my point of view it is an homerule, as the rules allow the character to move out of the presumed AoE.
Edit:
Keeping bbangerter comment into account, sure, it is not possible to move after the area that is targeted by the breath weapon is selected. Like it is not possible to move after a spell has been cast and you have been selected as a target. The trigger should be "he is casting a spell" not "I have been selected as a target and feel the magic coming my way".
For whatever it's worth, I think if you make a readied action to do this whole shindig, you should get to move and force the dragon to make choices.
*headscratch* I'm not getting the ultimate goal here. Why would you need a readied action to do this ? Is it the dragons move action you're trying to prevent?
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For whatever it's worth, I think if you make a readied action to do this whole shindig, you should get to move and force the dragon to make choices.*headscratch* I'm not getting the ultimate goal here. Why would you need a readied action to do this ? Is it the dragons move action you're trying to prevent?
You force the dragon into choosing the targets at the last moment while having already committed into using his breath weapon.
Let's say he had the choice of using a line breath weapon on 2 character or casting a fireball that would encompass the same 2 characters. The "dragon" (GM actually) consider the damage he can do with the fireball and the damage he can do with his breath weapon and choose the breath weapon.While he move into position ands prepare to breath one of the targets move away.
Now the dragon is committed into using his breath weapon but he can affect only one target. He must choose who he is. With the fireball he could have affected both choosing a different positioning for its area of effect.
With this tactic you lessen the effect of the attack on your party and hopefully you lure the dragon in a bad position.
Im not quite sure how chess would feel cheated out of anything with his action then.BNW and Chess Pwn, I'm pretty sure you two are talking past each other.
Chess Pwn is saying: If I ready an action to move when the dragon uses its breath weapon, then he gets to move, but the dragon still gets to select its target squares afterword, which may or may not include you.
BNW is talking about: If the dragon has already selected its target squares, then you already missed your opportunity to move with a readied action.
(Assuming I'm correctly understanding what each of you are saying).
With this, the proper use of the rules there's nothing to miss out on. It's the people that feel you should still be hit by the breath weapon, maybe with a bonus to the save or getting evasion for the attack, but that the readied action doesn't get you out of the saving throw needed for the breath weapon.
For whatever it's worth, I think if you make a readied action to do this whole shindig, you should get to move and force the dragon to make choices.*headscratch* I'm not getting the ultimate goal here. Why would you need a readied action to do this ? Is it the dragons move action you're trying to prevent?
Yeah, there's not much of a reason to do this I feel, but IF it were to happen is what's being debated.
Yeah, there's not much of a reason to do this I feel, but IF it were to happen is what's being debated.For whatever it's worth, I think if you make a readied action to do this whole shindig, you should get to move and force the dragon to make choices.*headscratch* I'm not getting the ultimate goal here. Why would you need a readied action to do this ? Is it the dragons move action you're trying to prevent?
There is no objective rule locking the creature into the action that you readied for. It doesn't really matter in this case, but it has some game breaking implications when you try to make the method you use to resolve it consistent without breaking the game.
There is no objective rule locking the creature into the action that you readied for. It doesn't really matter in this case, but it has some game breaking implications when you try to make the method you use to resolve it consistent without breaking the game.Yeah, there's not much of a reason to do this I feel, but IF it were to happen is what's being debated.For whatever it's worth, I think if you make a readied action to do this whole shindig, you should get to move and force the dragon to make choices.*headscratch* I'm not getting the ultimate goal here. Why would you need a readied action to do this ? Is it the dragons move action you're trying to prevent?
Yes, the creature is doing it's breath weapon, your readied action goes off, now the creature, assuming he is still capable of doing so, continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Thus starting his breath weapon triggering your readied action locks him into his breath weapon.
Yes, the creature is doing it's breath weapon, your readied action goes off, now the creature, assuming he is still capable of doing so, continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Thus starting his breath weapon triggering your readied action locks him into his breath weapon.
Can you cite that part? What happens if they can't?
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
If they can't finish they lose the action as they are unable to complete it now.
If they can't finish they lose the action as they are unable to complete it now.
Citation?
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
it's based off this.
it says,if he is able to, he finishes.
so it would mean that if he can't, then he doesn't continue his action.
now this works the same as an AoO. The other thing that lets you interrupt the normal flow of things. So you'd have to do something like break a spell pouch or silence them to stop a spell, or disarm or sunder a weapon for an attack, or trip them or something if they were wanting to move. Otherwise, and most of the time, they are free to finish the action they started that triggered your interrupt.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.it's based off this.
it says,
if he is able to, he finishes.
so it would mean that if he can't, then he doesn't continue his action.now this works the same as an AoO. The other thing that lets you interrupt the normal flow of things. So you'd have to do something like break a spell pouch or silence them to stop a spell, or disarm or sunder a weapon for an attack, or trip them or something if they were wanting to move. Otherwise, and most of the time, they are free to finish the action they started that triggered your interrupt.
Where does it say that?
I have crtl f'd the combat chapter looking for your words and can't find them.Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
Nothing about them having to be the action you interrupted.
I am using my standard action to do a breath weapon.
This triggers the fighter's readied action to move.
Now that his action is done I continue my actions if I am still capable of doing so.
Since I am, I continue with my breath weapon and then I can make my move or swift actions as normal.
This is the same argument as AoO. If you're not doing a breath weapon then my readied action never triggered. If you are doing a breath weapon then you're doing a breath weapon and my readied action interrupts that and then you finish your breath weapon. Because my readied action only goes off when you're going to make a breath weapon attack.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
his actionS. It does not specify that he must continue the triggering action. It just means if you knock him out his action is stopped and doesn't go off simultaneously or something.
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Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.his actionS. It does not specify that he must continue the triggering action. It just means if you knock him out his action is stopped and doesn't go off simultaneously or something.
The rules state exactly what the rules mean.
If I take an attack action, and my action is interrupted by a readied action, it doesn't change the fact that I took an attack action. I continue my actions, which includes the interrupted one that already began.
No take-backsies.
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.his actionS. It does not specify that he must continue the triggering action. It just means if you knock him out his action is stopped and doesn't go off simultaneously or something.The rules state exactly what the rules mean.
If I take an attack action, and my action is interrupted by a readied action, it doesn't change the fact that I took an attack action. I continue my actions, which includes the interrupted one that already began.
No take-backsies.
He continues his actionS. Multiple of them. And none of them are specified.
No exploiting the timey whimey balls.
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Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.his actionS. It does not specify that he must continue the triggering action. It just means if you knock him out his action is stopped and doesn't go off simultaneously or something.The rules state exactly what the rules mean.
If I take an attack action, and my action is interrupted by a readied action, it doesn't change the fact that I took an attack action. I continue my actions, which includes the interrupted one that already began.
No take-backsies.
He continues his actionS. Multiple of them. And none of them are specified.
No exploiting the timey whimey balls.
The triggering action is specified. The readied action must happen before it. If the readied action happens, the triggering action must continue to happen or else the triggering action won't have set off the readied action in the first place.
There aren't really rules for replacing one action for another after a readied action occurs. Your process isn't outlined.
There aren't really rules for replacing one action for another after a readied action occurs. Your process isn't outlined.
NO process is outlined. Thats my point. it just says he continues his actions, it doesn't say he has to continue the triggering action, or even that he can't take his other action and then the triggering action. Or even that the actions he continues is the same one as the trigger.
NO process is outlined. Thats my point. it just says he continues his actions, it doesn't say he has to continue the triggering action, or even that he can't take his other action and then the triggering action. Or even that the actions he continues is the same one as the trigger.There aren't really rules for replacing one action for another after a readied action occurs. Your process isn't outlined.
How could he not continue the action that triggered the readied action? Doing so it letting the dragon exploit a timey whimey ball of mess.
Dragon, I'm going to breath attack.
Fighter, I was waiting for you to breath.
Dragon, JK, I'm going to fly over here.
Fighter, well if you're not going to breath then my readied action doesn't trigger.
Dragon, haha, stupid fighter, I can trigger your readied action and if I don't like the result then I can do a take back and do something else.
It's not like I could read the rules to mean that I can continue the action I started and take any other of my remaining actions, thus continuing my actionS, multiple of them. No, it means that I never actually have to do the thing that you were waiting for that I started.
A turn is comprised (usually) of a std action, a move action, and a 5 foot step.
A readied action can interrupt any of these, this is why RAW says
'Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.'
Ie., if he attacked, he has a move action and possibly a 5 ft step (drawing a scroll for the move for example).
Nor is the dancing kobold difficult to defeat. Note that the situation setup is not legal. The Kobold cannot take a standard action and ready another standard action.
If you look in the Rules table, on actions you may take you will see
Ready: Triggers a Standard action. Players will often say they are readying a move action; this is not actually true. The rules allow the player to use a std action as a move action.
So if the Kobold has already attacked, he is not eligible to ready another action.
So lets take a situation which is legal: The kobold readies to attack and 5 ft step if the barbarian attacks.
So the situation described above is that the barbarian blindly chooses to attack anyway. Silly. The rules give perfectly adequate answers. The player realizes that the kobold did not attack, and so has a std. action available.
The Barbarian readies an action for kobolds next action, and attacks.
Bam. No more dancing kobold. No lost action for the barbarian. Readying actions, played correctly, are really not difficult.
Of course the Barbarian is also free to choose other actions, such as move 10 feet back, drawing a ranged weapon and shooting the kobold. The kobold is entitled to step up - but could not attack, he has lost his action.
Regarding the using the move action to get out of the breath weapon range.
The idea is conceptually sound. I would allow the player to take wait until the breath template is on the battle map before choosing his move. However, it would also be fair for the ref to have the player turn around (not looking at the battlemap), the ref place the breath weapon - and while the player is still not looking, have him declare where he is going.
Readying an action does not convey perfect knowledge of what your opponent will do, nor guarante perfect success that your ability to move will be enough.
Muh? Lemme sleep, I'm dreaming of dancin' kobolds and all....