Okay so simple question what classes work best with a dexterity build two weapon fighter, I'd like to avoid anything sneak attack related. I'm using a custom race, although you may have heard of them : Kokiri I wrote it a while back but for the purposes of this the stat bonuses go to dexterity and charisma the penalty to strength and they get improved initiative as a bonus feat. The weapons I'm looking to dual wield are the gladius and blade boots. As far as level or gm approval assume it's set as yes cause I am said gm making an important NPC.
Both are light I believe, gladius and blade boots.
The dex to hit a DMG is an important part actually.
And I'm not a big fan of martial flexibility, good ability bit not my cup o tea
The Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter eventually gets the unique ability to use both weapons in a single standard attack. They also drop the armor training a dex fighter doesn't need in exchange for an AC bonus from making a full-attack, their 'weapon training' equivalent isn't weapon-specific, and they eventually drop some of the TWF penalties.
If using those two weapons, I'm not sure there's really much the Swashbuckler has to offer that taking Amateur Swashbuckler doesn't cover.
Well the swashbuckler would net me the dex to DMG and finesse, gladius and blade boots work with cause slashing and piercing, although fighter has its own problems and advantages. But yea those two weapons specifically
Whirling dervish seems good, just took a look at it.
Idk haven't really decided, around level 6 to 10
How do we think ranger would work?
Thinking specifically divine tracker
Ranger is best if you are going for a strength build.
I would consider the mobile fighter archetype as they can move and full att at later levels. Consider also going with the spiked light shield aa weapon as it will help negate penalties, increase defense and offer tactical options (such as bull rushing on a hit). Other Otherwise beast totem barbarians for pounce are nice.
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the problem with divine tracker is if you have any "apply to weapon" effects, you have to use it on each one separately.
while it can work, usually the ranger is thought of as good with TWF because he avoids the need for dex. However, now that you can easily gain dex-damage it is just free feats.
and with him being an NPC you can "tailor" his Favored enemy to your PCs. (if you start at NPC 10, make sure he has a couple of instant enemy spells and no FE in a couple of your PC's types for real evilness :P)
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Ranger is best if you are going for a strength build.
I would consider the mobile fighter archetype as they can move and full att at later levels. Consider also going with the spiked light shield aa weapon as it will help negate penalties, increase defense and offer tactical options (such as bull rushing on a hit). Other Otherwise beast totem barbarians for pounce are nice.
the move+ full attack doesn't come online until around 11+ level IIRC
this is 6-10. just pointing that out.
Two weapon fighter or pouncing urban barbarian then yeah. I thought that was the starting range.
but thanks for reminding me I need to work on my boot blade katar dancing archetype some more.
Level isn't set really I'm still deciding, and questions about barbarian, isn't it specifically only good with strength builds? Cause I'm really trying to do dex build. Okay so ranger doesn't seem like my future option with what I've checked and seen so far. Also the following PCs will most likely be NG and a potential ally against the big bad of the campaign.
That is what the urban archetype is for, you can change the bonus to dex with it.
Also does whirling dervish work without scimitars?
Well the swashbuckler would net me the dex to DMG and finesse
Swashbuckler itself does nothing for dex-to-damage. The only dex-to-damage possible with a light weapon is the Agile enhancement. Swashbuckler has Precise Strike, but that won't work when using two weapons and has nothing to do with dexterity.
Also does whirling dervish work without scimitars?
Your build only works without scimitars. Whirling Dervish Swashbucklers lose the ability to finesse scimitars if they use a weapon in their other hand.
? It saves a feat in the form of weapon finesse, there are feats for dex to DMG, and whirling dervish itself states that any weapons under swshbuckler finesse gets. Dex to DMG instead of strength.
That's why I'm using blade boots, and a gladius the other hand is free
Well the swashbuckler would net me the dex to DMG and finesseSwashbuckler itself does nothing for dex-to-damage. The only dex-to-damage possible with a light weapon is the Agile enhancement. Swashbuckler has Precise Strike, but that won't work when using two weapons and has nothing to do with dexterity.
But they are talking about the Whirling Dervish Archetype which gets a 4th level ability to replace Str with Dex for damage anytime they use Swashbuckler Finesse.
But they are talking about the Whirling Dervish Archetype which gets a 4th level ability to replace Str with Dex for damage anytime they use Swashbuckler Finesse.
Whether a Whirling Dervish still has the ability to use Swashbuckler's Finesse with other weapons is open to interpretation, but it could be argued that it works even if it's probably not the intent.
Also, using a blade boot as offhand still technically counts as a weapon 'in her other hand' and negates Precise Strike, but really it's all up to what a GM wants to do about it.
The only way to get dual-wield dex-to-damage without 'controversy' would be to use two one-handed weapons and eat the extra penalty. On the up-side, and additional -2 isn't nearly the issue that some people make it out to be if you use a strong class for it.
Well the ruling is as raw at the table currently, so in other words it counts for scimitars and allof the above. As for blade boots my groups counts the hand as free but the weapon itself is used as offhand for Twf. And the dex to DMG in my groups case isn't a controversy, we follow what makes sense so in this case I'd get the level four dex to DMG ability.
But they are talking about the Whirling Dervish Archetype which gets a 4th level ability to replace Str with Dex for damage anytime they use Swashbuckler Finesse.Whether a Whirling Dervish still has the ability to use Swashbuckler's Finesse with other weapons is open to interpretation, but it could be argued that it works even if it's probably not the intent.
Also, using a blade boot as offhand still technically counts as a weapon 'in her other hand' and negates Precise Strike, but really it's all up to what a GM wants to do about it.
The only way to get dual-wield dex-to-damage without 'controversy' would be to use two one-handed weapons and eat the extra penalty. On the up-side, and additional -2 isn't nearly the issue that some people make it out to be if you use a strong class for it.
I agree with you regarding Precise Strike, but you'll have to explain the Dex to damage 'controversy' to me.
Dervish Dance (Ex):
At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
To me, that seems about as unambiguous as a description gets. A Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler can wield a short sword in each hand and Swashbuckler Finesse applies to each. The line highlighted above says that she would also get Dex to damage. There are lots of unclear statements in the rulebooks, but I honestly can't see how this one could be interpreted in any other way. If it doesn't actually grant Dex to damage, then what does that line mean?
If that's the way your group rules it, then Whirling Dervish is the best choice by a landslide since it's the only way you're going to have solid damage with those weapons. Nothing else is even worth considering.
So the Whirling Dervish idea absolutely don't work unless you ignore RAW in your home game.
Dervish Finesse (Ex)
A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
If you try to actually use that Boot Blade, it counts as your "off hand" and denies you the ability to use Dervish Finesse, which throws the whole idea out of whack.
If you DO ignore RAW, then go for it and have a blast! The RAW surrounding anything dex-to-damage is stupid anyway. ;)
So the Whirling Dervish idea absolutely don't work unless you ignore RAW in your home game.
Dervish Finesse (Ex)
A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.
This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
If you try to actually use that Boot Blade, it counts as your "off hand" and denies you the ability to use Dervish Finesse, which throws the whole idea out of whack.
If you DO ignore RAW, then go for it and have a blast! The RAW surrounding anything dex-to-damage is stupid anyway. ;)
The restriction that you highlighted only applies if you are using a scimitar. The OP is talking about using a gladius and a bootblade.
The pathfinder rules system and FAQs regarding 'hands' are a mess. There's really no reason to start up another endless argument over it, or point to one. If a GM is OK with using a blade boot as a Precise Strike loophole to do some kind of bizarre punt-n-slash TWF then that's that. Personally, under that interpretation of the rules, I'd just use armor spikes or unarmed strike so I didn't have to worry about hobbling around on my deployed combat boot.
I understand the problem with 'hands.' But could you answer my other question regarding Dervish Dance and the use of two short swords. I would really appreciate it.
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I understand the problem with 'hands.' But could you answer my other question regarding Dervish Dance and the use of two short swords. I would really appreciate it.
Oh, missed your post while posting. The question is whether or not 'Dervish Finesse' and 'Dervish Dance' are intended to work with the normal Swashbuckler Finesse weapons. It's a rather peculiar situation when everything about the archetype - right down to the fact that it's specifically, repeatedly referencing the Dervish Dance feat - would suggest that it's not there to suddenly open up a dex-to-damage free-for-all, while the actual wording arguably works for it. Most 'alters' archetype features actually spell out what they do or don't replace (can only x / can also x), but this one doesn't. Classic ACG.
Anyhow there's arguments for both sides of it. You can tell me I'm wrong and why, but fair warning: I'm stunningly uninterested in another ACG RAW/RAI debate, and will play dead.
Don't worry, I don't want to have an argument about it. I was just trying to understand the other position. If I understand you, some people believe that the statement
"At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse."
was intended to say something like
"At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse while wielding her scimitar."
It is possible. The ACG is such a mess, that I could easily see an editing screw-up here. It does seem crazily overpowered, but as it stands the wording pretty clearly does allow Dex to damage for any finesseable weapon as well as scimitars.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Its 3PP, but in Rite Publishing Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) there is a Samurai archetype called nitojutsu sensei which is closely based on the historical Miyamoto Musashi, a two-weapon specialist ronin (mostly) that loses access to a samurai order, but gains weapon expertise with both swords and class features focused on the mastery of katana and wakizashi combat, including combat style feats for 2 weapon style only. Though not purely a Dex based warrior, this archetype does get some movement bonuses.
The Yakuza Bushi from Rite Publishing Way of the Yakuza is very much a Dex based warrior archetype for fighter, though not specifically a 2-weapon specialist.
As is the Hishoken racial paragon class for tengu, from Rite Publishing In the Company of Tengu - which of course is tengu specific only.
Honestly if all this was intended to be used with a scimitar only my issue becomes what's the point when dervish dancer is already a bard archetype? They do the same thing or are all least intended to , the difference. Magic vs panache.