Which options are essential?


Advice


Looking around the forums, I've heard a lot about the various options you have when designing a character. Specifically, I'm a bit puzzled by the seemingly universal assumption that certain feats, racial traits, spells, and magical items are "necessary" for any given class to be effective. For example, it seems to somehow be common knowledge that every fighter ever takes Cleave and Power attack, and every rogue takes Weapon Finesse. Furthermore, some feats are considered "traps"; in other words, they're considered objectively useless in almost all situations.

How is a relatively new or inexperienced player supposed to know? How do I determine whether or not lowering my chance to hit in order to do additional damage is a good idea?

Is there some sort of list somewhere regarding which options are good and which ones aren't? Some sort of guide to tell me which feats to always choose and which ones never to touch with a 10-foot pole?

How do new players deal with playing classes like the fighter, where one misspent feat can apparently send your character into the black hole of obscurity and lack of contribution to combat in any way whatsoever?

Seriously, if there's any way for me to learn which feats are good and which aren't without spending three years doing in-depth calculations of DPR and action economy, I'd love to hear it.


Speaking seriously, Cleave is a joke of a feat and Rogues are in the hole whether you go Dex or Str. There's no easy indication of what is and isn't powerful, but you don't honestly need to know unless your whole group does, in which case they can show you.

And now my joke response: There's no such thing as essential feats you filthy powergamer, I saw a single classed Rogue one-shot a balor at level 3, you just play them wrong, you're ruining pathfinder.

Sovereign Court

You might find this to be a useful resource: link.

That said, people do like to exaggerate. Also, many GMs in home games are okay with a bit of rebuilding if it turns out you enjoy the personality/story of a character but not the mechanical choices you've made. In Pathfinder Society, rebuilding is also allowed in several ways.

So even if you made a poor choice, there's ways to improve on it.

Grand Lodge

I'm not sure what forums you're reading to get your "common knowledge" from,but some feats/abilities/classes most certainly are considered traps.


Only essential feat I can think of is Raging Vitality for barbarians. Without it, too easy to die if ever brought into negatives while raging.


Rogues can get finesse as a talent. I would assume that's why it's assumed.


DominusMegadeus wrote:

Speaking seriously, Cleave is a joke of a feat and Rogues are in the hole whether you go Dex or Str. There's no easy indication of what is and isn't powerful, but you don't honestly need to know unless your whole group does, in which case they can show you.

And now my joke response: There's no such thing as essential feats you filthy powergamer, I saw a single classed Rogue one-shot a balor at level 3, you just play them wrong, you're ruining pathfinder.

Specifically, classes like Monk or Fighter seem to be very dependent on the feats and other options you choose. As an example, a player I know was making a 1st level fighter, and took both Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything. In addition, an archery-based Ranger accomplished almost nothing in combat because he had neither Point-Blank Shot or Rapid Shot.

Add to that the fact that our GM regularly throws APL+3 or APL+4 encounters at us (which we only survive due to his GMPC essentially carrying the rest of the team, either through super-optimised damage or other shenanigans), and I think you understand why having 2 or 3 feats that you never actually use isn't such an exciting prospect.

Shadow Lodge

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Well, if the GMPC has everything covered you should just sit back and enjoy the show.


Um, actually, Cleave isn't a bad feat at all for fighter. You can get yourself a bonus attack in certain situations before your first iterative, then train it out once you actually get iteratives. It's not good throughout your whole career, but you can do worse for the first 5 levels.

But as to your general question, you can check out those guides, and just pay attention to the discussion on the boards. You'll see conflicting information (as you've already seen in this post) but at least get multiple points of view on things.

No one just knows all this stuff instinctively. If people think of it as "common knowledge," that is only because they've been reviewing the resources already mentioned, or they're bringing system mastery over from 3.5 D&D, which can actually trip you up sometimes by assuming there aren't any differences.


MyTThor wrote:
Um, actually, Cleave isn't a bad feat at all for fighter. You can get yourself a bonus attack in certain situations before your first iterative, then train it out once you actually get iteratives. It's not good throughout your whole career, but you can do worse for the first 5 levels.

Well, considering I'm relatively new to Pathfinder, and have never had a character go beyond level 6 so far, and also having never played a full BAB class, even multiple attacks are a new and exciting concept, as far as feats go.

MyTThor wrote:
But as to your general question, you can check out those guides, and just pay attention to the discussion on the boards. You'll see conflicting information (as you've already seen in this post) but at least get multiple points of view on things.

And yet, feats like Power Attack are considered to be indispensable in just about any melee build, for some reason which completely eludes me. For our party, attacks seem to miss half the time, so why would I reduce my chance to do damage at all?

MyTThor wrote:
No one just knows all this stuff instinctively. If people think of it as "common knowledge," that is only because they've been reviewing the resources already mentioned, or they're bringing system mastery over from 3.5 D&D, which can actually trip you up sometimes by assuming there aren't any differences.

Well, let me put it this way:

Are there any feats not found in the Core Rulebook that I should really know, or do the feats in the CRB cover most of what I'll need?


The link posted to Zenith's compilation of Pathfinder class guides is a solid start. Most of the guides are good.

Overall you're going to do better asking about specific feats, or at least specific classes. Power Attack is considered useful because most of the builds that want it have a way to leverage themselves past the downsides. The Fighter not only has full BAB, with his weapon of choice he has even more accuracy-- so sacrificing a bit isn't a noticeable cost. Additionally, if you're two-handing (most martial builds are), Power Attack has an exceptionally good cost-to-damage return of -1 to hit for +3 damage (the standard game valuation is 1:2).

On the flip side we have classes like the Magus, who are 3/4ths BAB and eat a -2 to their attack rolls as a general point of existence. For them, the loss of accuracy is very often outweighing their gains and they're better off without the feat, or at least not using it mindlessly.

Hence, you're better off asking "why do Fighters like Power Attack" or "why is Power Attack good" than anything else, that way you can understand it and make an informed decision.


It really depends what class you are playing. There are a number of optimized feats in books other than CRB.

Power attack is indispensable because in many cases you do more damage taking -1 to hit and +3 to damage.


Power attack on a raging barb two handing a greatsword mean 1 hit to kill a lot of stuff.

How are you getting your stats for your character? Getting an 18 or 20 to your hitting stat and some boost like weapon focus or rage gives you an impressive hitting chance.

Shadow Lodge

Bioboygamer wrote:
Add to that the fact that our GM regularly throws APL+3 or APL+4 encounters at us (which we only survive due to his GMPC essentially carrying the rest of the team, either through super-optimised damage or other shenanigans), and I think you understand why having 2 or 3 feats that you never actually use isn't such an exciting prospect.

Here's your problem. APL+3 or +4 encounters are supposed to be "epic" - very rare and/or occurring in a game with a higher power level (stats/wealth/optimization). New players in particular should not be faced with them "regularly." If you are having difficulty due to lack of familiarity with the rules, your GM should be taking it down a notch so that you have a chance to try things out. And if he's experienced enough to optimize his GMPC he should be able to at least make a few suggestions to help you improve your own builds.

Also keep in mind that many build recommendations are based on typical play. For example, Power Attack is useful for a two-handed weapon style assuming that your chance to hit most opponents falls within a certain range. If you're always fighting enemies with unusually high AC (thanks to being CR 6 when you are level 3) it will be less good. Some options can also be better or worse depending on what your party looks like and how much wealth you have compared to the standard.

Scarab Sages

Cleave is really too limited to be useful unless you are a dwarf and/or take cleaving finish.


Power Attack is generally considered a good feat because of the reasons listed, and also because there are a lot more ways to pump your attack roll than your damage roll. You will find yourself missing a lot at lower levels, particularly if your DM doesn't understand the encounter building rules, as weirdo referenced above. But more particularly, it seems like your DM doesn't understand the rule that the game is about the players, and they don't want to be dragged around by the DM's superhero :)

The core rulebook has plenty of rules to be effective and have fun. There's some cool stuff not in there, but if you're still getting to know the system, what's good and what's not, it's a decent idea to limit your options. Maybe go Core and APG, but don't just use anything under the SRD sun if you aren't comfortable with what most people consider the "basics."


http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oxbs?Best-feat-ever
Some good opinions in that thread.

Somewhere there is a thread where Evil Lincoln (I think) rated all the feats.

But yeah, how you make a character depends what you want to do.

I should warn you, "optimized" playing often means lots of anti-climatic "rocket tag" encounters, and enforces a fairly limited amount of options. And no matter what you do, if your GM just wants to one-up your character with his monsters and DMPC, he can just do that. Hopefully your GM is just learning to balance his encounters, (a fine art), and things will improve as time goes on.

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