Advice for Goliath Druid


Advice

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Hi everybody!
After a long hiatus, I'm going to play in the brand new "Giantslayer" adventure path.

Reading the Player Guide, it gives me a good amount of hype. It suggests a lot of builds made to play *as* a giant, sort of. Titan Mauler, Titan Fighter, and this kind of stuff.

I read about Goliath Druid, and I really like the concept, and I feel it REAAAAALLY fits the player guide spirit. So that's what's going to be my character.

My first few concepts reduced the starting point to either half-orc or dwarf. Dwarf sounds extremely powerful in this AP, with so many racial traits against giants, and +CON and +WIS is as good as +STR from the half orc, probably. Half-orc has a great vibe for the goliath, though (easy to re-skin as a half troll, which probably will be you go-to form later on), and the favored class bonus is quite cute (+1/3 NA). Also, the Dwarf trained trait *sort* of help to reduce the gap with dwarves in the anti-giant department.

A few things I need to know for Goliath Druids.
They can only wildshape into dinosaurs, megafauna and giants. But Ptenarodons descrpition says they are not considered dinosaurs (they are pterosaurs). Are they considered dinosaurs for wildshape? If not, is there *any* option for a flying form for Goliath druids? If not, how do you overcome this?

Weapons or claws? I like characters that aren't glass cannons. I like survivality, and thus, I like AC. Druids in wildshape often are a bit of weak in the AC side. Goliath have some extra toughness over regular pouncing-dire-tiger-druids, at the cost of a lot of damage, though. Shillelagh + Shield seems to be a decent combo for a while, and gives you a nice bump in AC, which might help to keep the character in the "only hit with 15+" zone of confort. But later, you'll lose a ton of damage that way. Troll form gives you bite + 2 claws + Rend, which isn't bad, and more damaging than shillelagh + secondary bite, but still can't compete with pouncing by any means. Could Vital strike help to solve that? I'm trying to stay within theme, so I'm not going to be a conqueror ooze, but maybe Shillelagh + Large/huge sized club could be decent enough? I'm not trying to be the highest damage in the table, just not being a dead weight.

As a snapshot, at lvl 12, as Half Orc you could have:
+9 AC (+3 breastplate, made of ironwood or dragonscale) + 2 luck (jingasa + fate favored trait) +1 Insight (ioun stone) + 4 shield (+2 regular shield) + 4 natural armor (giant form) + 4 natural armor (favored bonus) +5 enhanced natural amor (barkskin) +2 deflection (ring) + 1 Dex -1 size, for something around 41 AC, which might be up to 43 with feats (shield focus, dodge if you want) and 45 vs giants (dwarven training trait from the campaign), which is enough to be hit only with 20s by CR11 Cloud Giants, which sounds about Ok. Specially because you'll have also Regeneration 5, damage resist, several resistances (planar wildshape into a fiendish ice troll, for example). Saving throws also are OK, except for reflex. You'll raise wisdom decently, and troll form gives you +4 CON, and both Will and Fortitude are good saves for you, plus you have +2 luck from orc tattoos and fate favored.

But the damage department might be more troublesome, though. By this level, a wand of Shillelagh probably won't be enough anymore (although I think it's quite viable until here). As a Large Troll, with Shillelagh, your damage would be +3d6 only, even with vital strike and devastating strike it won't be impressive.

The above lvl 12 dude would have something like:
15 starting stregth +2 racial +3 level ups + 4 enhancement + 6 size bonus, or str 30. With Shillelagh, it would have something like:
+9 BAB + 10 str + 1 enhancement + 1 competence (ioun stone), +21 to hit, for 6d6 + 10 (str) +1 (enhanchement) + 6 (devastating strike), or 6d6+17 for a vital strike, same round you move. Could use Power Attack for extra -4 to hit and +8 to damage, but it's not that good for 1h weapons.

Compared to pouncing allosaurs, that's sad. A full round would have 3 attacks, including the secondary bite, but that's not really impressive anyways. 2 claws + bite + Rend would do a bit more (depending on how much Greater Magic Fangs you spend, quite a lot more, especially with amulets of natural weapons with Holy, or Giant Bane or something like that), but then you lose like 4-5 AC, and you are no longer in the "hit with 20s" cattegory. I guess if you want to do damage, you should be using a dinosaur form instead of a giant form anyways. Maybe with a level of barbarian, so you can use furious Finish? It seems that pouncing allosaurs, and vital-striking tyrannosaurs are going to do a lot more damage.

Any suggestions?

PS: companion would be a Ankylosaur or Stegosaur, I think


Dot.


Considering the fact that I have a large interest in wildshaping into large earth elementals (if humanoid shaped, they can use weapons), I am going to side with weapons.

You can turn into very big humanoids. You can prepare equipment for your larger forms. And you have large sized reach. You can honestly do a reach build with a scimitar.

Reach is fantastic for damage, and might get you almost as much as you would get from pounce. This is particularly true with the release of the fortuitous property (1/round when you get an AoO, you can throw in a second AoO at BAB-5; it is basically a full attack as an AoO). Imagine that with keen 2 handed damage.

Or heck, use a large sized reach weapon and cover an even larger distance. At large, you can become a 50' wide circle of pain that punishes anything that tries to get near you or past you.

Another advantage of reach is that it lets you stay a melee threat even if you are just sitting there casting. Just ask the reach cleric.


To be honest, I normally hate the fact that druids have scimitar proficiency, I jsdt don't see why. But for a half orc (which gets falchion as racial weapon), it looks ok, I think. Scimitar+shield+reach sounds good, lots of defense and decent damage, although Vital Strike isnt very useful there. Combat reflexes and lunge sound great aditions for that build.

2 hand build is easy, because the half orc has falchion and great axe, but Reach weapons means your need to get it somehow, maybe a level or two of fighter, ranger or barbarian, to get an extra feat, giants as favored enemies, or rage (which also opens the feat for max damage in a vital strike).

Must have feats, whatever the build, natural spell (although much less useful for goliaths, because giants can speak), and planar wildshape. If dwarf, Steel Soul, but I think I'm 90% decided for half orc already. What else is a must have for Druids?

What about spells? Any suggestion? I think self buffs and pet buffs will eat most slots.

Gear: besides vestments of druid, and the standard buffs like cloak of prot, etc... What el se is good?


Yeah, it is a bit weird that druids do not get longspear proficiency.

On a side note- regular spears work like greatswords when you are large (but falchions also have that 2d6 when they are large...so...)

For half orcs, if you grab the sacred tattoo ability, then you really want the fate's favored trait. That gives an extra +1 to all luck bonuses, which means sacred tattoo gives +2 to all saves. Rather useful.


Yep, Sacred tattoo and fate's favored is pretty much a staple.

I'm thinking about the pet. Stegosaurus can do a bit more damage than Ankylosaurus (specially when strong jaw is factored in), and has the same AC beyond lvl 7 (and better saves and slightly more HP). Trip is much worse than Dazed, but it's not a bad condition anyways. And higher Dex means Stegosaurus can take combat reflexes and actually get a return for the investment, reach, trip and a punishing hit. Ankylosaurus' stun win fights in the right moment, though.

Another option could be to take a more standard pouncing pet (like Allosaurus). That way it can make the damage I'm not doing, but at the cost of being more fragile itself. With Undersized Mounts, if you pay for permanency for Enlarge PErson (which Goliath druids can cast on their dinosaur companion), you can be a Huge giant mounting a Huge dinosaur, which is ... huge... :P. With 1 level of fighter Titan Mauler you could get a gargantuan Lance, and charge and do some damage.


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Ok, I think I've made my mind.

With the AP focusing heavy in giants, I think it'll be nice to change for a while, and make a less standard druid. By focusing in giantshaping, I'll be able to ignore staple feats like Wild Speech, Nature Spell, or Planar Wildshaping, which are useless for a giant.

I'll be focusing on troll form, mostly (my character is going to be a half-orc, that I'll reskin as a half-troll, at least by name. Later I'll be in troll form 24/7, probably). I'll fight with Shillelagh and Klar for aesthetic reasons. I like to imagine the character in my mind, and this will be the character look) for the first levels, until I can use natural weapons. This is what I'd look later only with more armor

Later, I'll focus in natural weapons, with the ussual stuff like Amulet of mighty Fist, Greater Magic Fang, Strong Jaws, etc. Once I'm able to rend, I'll take the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rending-fury-combat feat, and maybe Improved Natural weapon. Compared to a "standard" Dire Tiger druid, I lose Pounce but gain Reach, and have 1 attack less (1 bite +2 claws +2 rakes, vs 1 bite +2 claws +1 Rend), and the Grab ability. I'll do less damage, but I'll be able to control the battlefield better, thanks to Reach, and my defense would be much higher, because trolls can have armor. A Dragonhide Full plate is damn cheap for what it gives, and you don't need any expensive enchantment to benefit from it. It should the first thing I buy once I get 3.300 gold coins.

I'll get Stegosaurus as pet. It'll be a support pet and an extra body to "tank", focused in helping people and defense. I'll give him some teamwork feats, like Outflank and Precise Strike. With Aid and Flanking tricks, he'll be a great help early, even when he's not a danger himself (it starts with Str 10...). Later, Outflank, a Menacing AoMF, and Trip, will help alot, and Improved natural weapon, Greater Magic Fang, Strong Jaws and Vital strike can help him to dish some damage, even if it's not going to be the equivalent of a pouncing beast. On the bright side, he'll have AC 22 at lvl 1 (with a leather barding), and will raise to very decent levels, with high Dex, huge natural armor, and some barding.

We play with 20 points, and the GM has asked politely not to tank abilities if possible, so this is going to be my first lvl:

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 10.
AC 17 (Hide +4, Klar +1, Dex +2)
HP 10
Att +3 1d6+3 (club) or +4 1d6+4 (Shillelagh)
1st lvl feat Big Game Hunter
Planned progression: 3 Heavy armor, 5 Craft W.I., 7 Precise Strike 9 Outflank 11 Improved Natural Attack, or Power Attack 13 Rending Fury 15+ Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude, in some order.

Traits are going to be Fate's Favored and Dwarven Training (which looks like damn useful for this campaign), and I'll take Sacred Tattoos as well, like most Half-orc PC does, I suppose.

Items to hunt for (one of the big reasons to take Craft Woundreous Items), Jingasa of Fortunate Soldier, Several Ioun Stones (+1 AC, +1 Attack, 1st lvl Spell Storing plus a Wand of Shield), the standard gear (Shifter's headband of Wisdom, Belt of Strength, Cloak of protection, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Mighty fist (maybe giant bane, plus usual stuff like Frost, Fire, etc), Menacing amulet (for the Stegosaurus), Deliquescent Gloves, Rod of Extend Spell

Someone has any advice? Something obvious I'm missing? Any way to improve this basic idea?


Well, my character is doing just fine. We finished book 1, currently lvl 4 (can wildshape into deynonichus already if I want), and I'm checking the kind of trolls I'd use soon.

At lvl 6, you transform with an special alter self into large humanoids, which give you only the natural attacks, reach, and a few stat bonuses. Here are the most interesting for this level:

Moss Troll: Has only 1d4 natural weapon damage (both bite and claws), but has 15' reach with claws, which is... great... He is vulnerable to fire, but the Alter Self spell doesn't state that you gain that (while Giant form, does).

Two Headed Troll: Has 4 attacks, 2 bites and 2 claws. It comes in Kingmaker campaign, and it's not clear if he's "one of a kind" or an actual race, so ask your GM if you can wildshape into it

River Troll: Like regular troll, but with Swim movement. Scrags have swim too, but move less on land.

You could go with some giant, if you want to use rock Throwing, too.

You'll get some interesting options later, like Rock trolls and Ice trolls to gain some energy resistance and other stuff, but you'll need giant form for that, so at this level, it doesn't really matter.
I've already comissioned a +2 Dragon Hide Plate Armor to Lastwall, I think I'll be able to keep AC at decent level once I hit lvl6.

My poor stegosaurus died last game, tanking a big bad giant skeleton, so I'm going to replace him. Maybe I'll take a T-Rex, not sure yet. I'll buy barding for him too.


no Moss Troll > its large. alter self cant get you large.
quick wild shape is important as well.
i would take scribe scrolls, handy over sack can be sued as a troll.
Trex and Stegosaurus have REALLY low CON, so they will die as levels go.
i took on my saurain 2 pets over the years - a trex that took spring attack, he went in and out while doing 3d6+22, not bad foe surviving.
OR take animals with CON :
Pachycephalosaurus
Arsinoitherium (HUGE tank and damage)
Spinosaurus


also Destruction (rage) instead of animal companion.
rage = a feat for full vital strike damage....
also, if animal go animal (feather) domain & boon companion.
extra spells and perception


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The Goliath Druid gets a special form of Wild Shape which DOES allow her to wild shape into a Large Humanoid of the Giant type at level 6 (so Trolls are absolutely and specifically allowed). It then functions "like" Alter Self.

Quote:
At 6th level, the goliath druid can use wild shape to become a Large humanoid of the giant subtype. This functions as the alter self spell, except the goliath druid gains a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +1 natural armor bonus. If the Large humanoid form she takes has rock throwing, she gains rock throwing (range 40 feet, 1d8 damage). If the form has the aquatic subtype, she gains the aquatic and amphibious subtypes.

The Goliath Druid is a very cool archetype indeed.

One thing to note is that beyond the combat value of wild shaping into a Troll form, wild shape would offer the Goliath Druid (especially if you also have enough INT to take Giant as a language known) the ability to infiltrate groups of Giants and leverage the long duration of Wildshape out of combat as well as in combat. As a GM I would fully expect players playing Goliath Druids in an anti-Giant adventure path to use wild shape to try to infiltrate (or bluff via pretending to have captured the rest of the party/have them as servants etc.

The Goliath Druid also lends itself to considering not taking Natural Spell or taking it later than other Druids.


666bender wrote:

no Moss Troll > its large. alter self cant get you large.

quick wild shape is important as well.
i would take scribe scrolls, handy over sack can be sued as a troll.
Trex and Stegosaurus have REALLY low CON, so they will die as levels go.
i took on my saurain 2 pets over the years - a trex that took spring attack, he went in and out while doing 3d6+22, not bad foe surviving.
OR take animals with CON :
Pachycephalosaurus
Arsinoitherium (HUGE tank and damage)
Spinosaurus

The archetype lets you wildshape into large creatures of the giant subtype at that level. It just references alter self since that has the lsit of abilities you gain from your new form (darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet). Everything else is changed based upon what the archetype says wildshape can do (creatures you can turn into, stat changes, etc.)

Anyway, for the moss troll bit- you gain 'natural abilites' like the creature's basic reach when you use polymorph spells. If it was something like the mantis' lunge ability (which is an extraordinary ability that extends reach), then yeah, you would not gain that.


ferocity is really nice for more damage and great spell list .
magic vestment saves a fortune,
7th—grasping hand, 8th—clenched fist, 9th—crushing hand.
are great.

but rage, with Arsinoitherium, imprive natural weapon (gore ) and vital strike \ strong jaw and the feat for full damage (than fatigue) you will do:
8*(6*2*2)+25 = 217 damage...
than attack as fatigue, you can handle it :)


Rycaut wrote:
The Goliath Druid also lends itself to considering not taking Natural Spell or taking it later than other Druids.

Very true- it doesn't even need you to buy new equipment for your giant form. Polymorph spells allow your equipment to enlarge when you are turning into humanoid creatures. The absorbed equipment thing is only when you turn into things like animals, plants, or elementals.

With scimitars for 18-20/x2, large spears hitting like great swords, and the wide reach since they are of the 'tall' reach template, there is everything out there to encourage you to just relegate normal wildshaping to a niche thing (when you need for fly or swim, for example) and just going around as a giant all the time.


Someone said wrote:


(planar wildshape into a fiendish ice troll, for example)

no can do.... planar wild shape require animal form. still a decent feat .


lemeres wrote:
Rycaut wrote:
The Goliath Druid also lends itself to considering not taking Natural Spell or taking it later than other Druids.

Very true- it doesn't even need you to buy new equipment for your giant form. Polymorph spells allow your equipment to enlarge when you are turning into humanoid creatures. The absorbed equipment thing is only when you turn into things like animals, plants, or elementals.

With scimitars for 18-20/x2, large spears hitting like great swords, and the wide reach since they are of the 'tall' reach template, there is everything out there to encourage you to just relegate normal wildshaping to a niche thing (when you need for fly or swim, for example) and just going around as a giant all the time.

also, 1/2 or or dwarfs gain great weapons.

falchion, great Axe are handy.
i REALLY like a 15-20 (keen) weapon for 3/4 BAB classes.
also, multi attack feat isnt bad for better the bite attack.
i now want to play one as well!
a troll shaped druid on a weird double horned rhino or better yet, a flying petrosauor!


just note that the Goliath Druid can ONLY widlshape into Giants or into Animals of the Dinosaur or Megafauna type (most GM's I think would allow Petrosauors though technically they aren't "dinosaurs" unclear if they would be allowed in PFS however).

(I assume you can waive the spell resistance gained from the celestial template but not actually sure how you calculate the value - what is your "CR"? I would think it is based on your class levels not the form you are taking? But the template would add at least 1 to that CR since a druid taking planar wild shape almost certainly has more than 5 HD....)


i would allow petrosauros as dino's. it make sense.
it's still a heavy blow.
earth elemental are the best tanks attacking from cover and earth glide everywhere. they cant be stooped.
air elemental can fly as fast as any, dex bonus and whirlwind.
plants have 60 or even 100 feet reach, covering the entire battle field.
lastly, no regular animal makes it a bit harder in cities.
a normal druid can always turn to a dog or kitty or a dove and search the city unwatched. Goliath, better combatant, have harder time where others see it. in an ally, turning into a troll might get you killed.


Goliath Druid is a different kind of druid, that for sure. It's harder to be ignored (although there are tiny dinosaurs too, which help with stealth). You lose the elemental forms, but you gain the giant forms, which are also very valuable. You don't lose your gear when you transform into giants, and that's incredibly good, you can use activated magic items and you can save a fortune in armor, because you don't need the wildshaping enchantment. A +1 dragon hide full plate is way cheaper than a +4 full plate that only protect as +1. You'll miss planar shape, but you are nearly unkillable with regeneration, specially if you protect yourself against acid (and you take a form without fire vulnerability, such as rock troll). Comparing it to the regular wildshaping druid is not very usefull, they are different, with a different approach and different strengths. And more importantly, it has a different flavor.

I'm roleplaying my druid as a half-troll, from a family of half orcs. It's mechanically a half orc, but has troll lineage, and he's transforming himself into a full troll. At 6th level, he can do a Fiona : 2 wildshapes x 6 hours, means he's a troll during the day, and half orc by night. 15' reach (with moss troll) is very valuable. It's maybe not as good as pounce, but it's also safer, has more battlefield control, better AC normally, and can use magic items and cast spells without paying a feat tax. Also, once you get into Rend, feats like Rending Fury help a lot to increase your damage, and Combat reflexes, lunge, and 15' reach make for a good combination.

Taking rage as a domain is, actually, a good idea. However, in my group we have a couple of players that don't play every sunday, and sometimes we are just 3 players. HAving an extra body helps a lot. And my character is going to spend a lot more time in troll form than he'll do in dinosaur or megafauna form, so the max-damage vital strike isn't as cool as it sounds, because troll base damage isn't that big

I disagree with the idea that Stegosaurus isn't a tank. With dex 18, high natural armor, and just expending a couple of feats, he can have something like AC 27 at lvl 4 (Nat armor +8, Chainshirt bard +4, Dex +4, Dodge +1) That's quite good as far as tanks go for that level. High HP with low AC is a very bad combination for tanky companions in my opinion. I don't like high maintenance companions that soak a lot of cure light wound charges to heal. Trip and reach is a good combo as well, and although he doesn't do a lot of damage, if you spend a couple of teamwork feats like Outflank and invest in a Menacing amulet of mighty fist, he'll improve your main character (which also helps with your teamplay. Pets stealing too much spotlight by doing a lot of damage sometimes makes the party fighter unhappy, while pets tanking and soaking hits and helping people to hit always are welcome). However, I might try with a T-Rex, just because I found a nice picture of an armored t-rex, and maybe our group could use a bit more damage.

I'm not sure, however, about what to do at lvl 6, once I get into Moss Troll form. Large 15' reach falchion sounds good, but it's one attack per turn only (maybe 2 with attacks of oportunity). While fighting with natural weapons will give you 3 attacks (one of them with 10' reach, though). It's 3 attacks with 1d4+8 (roughly) or 1 attack with 2d6+12 but 18+ crit.

In the long run, I think natural weapons win. Strong Jaw, bigger starting damage (Jotund Trolls or Mountain trolls for example), Rend, and the Greater Magic Fang + AoMF combo are really good.


I will say that, for the style of game play you get as goliath druid using giant forms, you could do something similar with earth elemental on a regular druid.

While your equipment doesn't shift with you, the fact that elementals can ahve hands and they can talk means that you lose little if you just run around in a preferred elemental shape all day long. Just buy a large armor/weapon set, and pay the same enhancement price after that.

Comparing an earth elemental and a troll at level 12, it is somewhat comparable. While trolls give regeneration, elementals give DR and immunity to crits/bleed/sneak attacks. That, combined with increased utility from earthglide and the like, can make it very useful.

I think it is more of a matter of taste for this kind of build though. Goliath druids get their gimmick earlier (technically, they are playing with it to some extent from level 1 with their spontaneous enlarge spells) while the earth elemental has to wait until mid levels before they can really devote themselves to this role (but they keep the spontaneous use of summon spells...).


Actually as far as I know Goliath Druids don't lose the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Natural Ally spells (and they get additional options for those spells actually) - their ability to spontaneously cast Enlarge Person is in exchange for Nature Sense.

And the ability to cast Enlarge Person on their Animal Companion is pretty nifty - especially at lower levels


Rycaut wrote:

Actually as far as I know Goliath Druids don't lose the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Natural Ally spells (and they get additional options for those spells actually) - their ability to spontaneously cast Enlarge Person is in exchange for Nature Sense.

And the ability to cast Enlarge Person on their Animal Companion is pretty nifty - especially at lower levels

whoops, you are right. I misread that, assuming it replaced the other spontaneous ability.


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Discuss with your GM whether Pterosaurs count as "dinosaurs" in a broad sense. Precedent: Dimetrodon is considered a "Dinosaur" in pathfinder, even though biologically they're more closely related to mammals than to T-rex.

Being able to wildshape into, or have companions of, flying reptiles will be very significant.


it is actually a pretty fair trade - in exchange for two nice but not overly powerful skill boosts the Goliath Druid gets to spontaneously cast one additional spell (which typically you would assume they use a 1st level spell for - though technically they could use any spell level they have - though they gain little benefits from doing so). Their Nature Bond is also modified to specifically say that they can cast Enlarge Person on their animal companion even if that companion wouldn't usually be able to be targeted with Enlarge Person.

Eventually Animal Growth may be mechanically better than Enlarge Person but the spontaneous option is nice to have. Though notably they can't cast Enlarge Person on themselves while Wild Shaped since polymorph effects don't stack. (and occasionally it may be useful to cast on other party members though the casting time is a limitation)


I have thought about the Goliath Druid.

2 of my ideas. You get a whole pile of powerful options for Summon Natures ally. You could go the route of taking augmented and superior summons. It chews up 3 feats [due to pre-req] a fourth if you want evolved summons, but gives power and flexibility. You may have already taken another route.

And taking a level of Mammoth Rider to get a huge mount. You only need one level. Its a way off but there is a lot of power there.


Mammoth rider sounds interesting. I'll take a look. For summoning I think Saurian/lion shamans are better, standard action summons is really powerful. I've used nature ally un the Adventure so far, but it was the old trusted stirge spam.


I read a guide where the author was all orgasmic over the summoning options of Goliath Druid. I have not played it myself but there are certainly powerful options there.

Dark Archive

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

I read a guide where the author was all orgasmic over the summoning options of Goliath Druid. I have not played it myself but there are certainly powerful options there.

Do you happen to have a link?


That link would be nice, yes. Although I feel that Standard Action Summons are unbeatable


The guide is here, and the relevant part is in section 1.

docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Y_uvQ0fgmLR9aW-OoAD_rbI-3iMJVQmxifLpA1s5EX g

And my memory was letting me down, he was raving about the Saurian Shaman.

And, presuming Peterrco is right, combining the Saurian Shaman with 1 level of Mammoth Rider, for the Huge mount, gives you 2 sources of a lot of power.


Thanks, I'll read it. Full Round Summon Nature Ally are much more circumstantial for Goliath Druids, but they are usefull anyways.

EDIT: The link was wrong, but using peterrco's name I found it
peterrco's guide


mammoth is interesting, a Huge T-Rex is awesome (huge vital strike there with Strong Jaw, great Grab bonus with huge size).
I'm thinking if I should take it. But probably isn't worth it before 12th lvl, it will delay giant form wildshape. And once there, you have to choose between lvl 7 spells, and giant forma II, or the pet, which might not be usefull always (although in this AP you probably have more room for big asses, and narrow frame is ok.
However, riding a huge t-rex is as cool as you can get :/


Well, I would go for the Mammoth Rider level as soon as I could, ie level 10, if the campaign was such that you could use it most of the time. Huge creatures are much more powerful than large, and you can make it even bigger with enlarge person. :)

It is not past argument and its your character.

I think I have convinced myself. If I was playing in a largely outdoor campaign I would play a Saurian Druid with 1 level of Mammoth Rider. But my next Pathfinder campaign looks like being the urban Curse of the Crimson Throne. :(


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Well, I would go for the Mammoth Rider level as soon as I could, ie level 10, if the campaign was such that you could use it most of the time. Huge creatures are much more powerful than large, and you can make it even bigger with enlarge person. :)

It is not past argument and its your character.

I think I have convinced myself. If I was playing in a largely outdoor campaign I would play a Saurian Druid with 1 level of Mammoth Rider. But my next Pathfinder campaign looks like being the urban Curse of the Crimson Throne. :(

Yeah, but remember- goliath druids would normally want to wait longer, since they do not want to delay their major pay out- true giant form, giving them regeneration. That comes at level 12, and it carries a rather nice boost in strength as well.

And there is also giant form II at level 14. That is important because the language of giant form significantly differs from animal shape or elemental body- rather than having the stat bonuses tied to your size, it just lists them. There has been a lot of argument about whether that means you get those increased stat boosts, even if you are not a huge giant.

Anyway, you should typically wait until level 13 at the least.


Mmm. I didn't thought about enlarge person. Not sure if they stack with Mammoth rider (both give size bonus). If they do, Huge T-rex are good, but gargantuan t-rex are... tasty. That's really food for thought! Gargantuan T-Rex with Imp natural weapon bite, Impact Amulet of Mighty Fist and Strong jaw does like a gazillion damage with Vital Strike.

Slight spoiler that you probably are aware if you have read the names of the different Crimson Throne books, but:

Spoiler:
Curse of Crimson throne becomes less urban once you can ride mammoths/huge mounts, however. You go to Storval plateau for a while


lemeres wrote:

Yeah, but remember- goliath druids would normally want to wait longer, since they do not want to delay their major pay out- true giant form, giving them regeneration. That comes at level 12, and it carries a rather nice boost in strength as well.

And there is also giant form II at level 14. That is important because the language of giant form significantly differs from animal shape or elemental body- rather than having the stat bonuses tied to your size, it just lists them. There has been a lot of argument about whether that means you get those increased stat boosts, even if you are not a huge giant.

Anyway, you should typically wait until level 13 at the least.

I don't know why you wouldn't want to be a huge giant, though.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
lemeres wrote:

Yeah, but remember- goliath druids would normally want to wait longer, since they do not want to delay their major pay out- true giant form, giving them regeneration. That comes at level 12, and it carries a rather nice boost in strength as well.

And there is also giant form II at level 14. That is important because the language of giant form significantly differs from animal shape or elemental body- rather than having the stat bonuses tied to your size, it just lists them. There has been a lot of argument about whether that means you get those increased stat boosts, even if you are not a huge giant.

Anyway, you should typically wait until level 13 at the least.

I don't know why you wouldn't want to be a huge giant, though.

Hmmmm....I suppose that you have enough wildshape uses to spare, and it is not like equipment is a problem.

I am still working under the assumptions I made when trying to work with similar build on elementals, where equipment would be much harder to deal with (and you had to buy a set for a particular sized form), so going with the form that can actually squeeze indoors was an issue.

Still, it can be a small issue if you want to run around in a form, rather than wasting time shifting in the fight. And this archetype highly encourages you to pick a form and stick with it, since there is not as much utility variance among giants.


Sure, you normally stick with the same form
But once you are 14th lvl... ¿why would that form be a large troll, when it could be a Mountain Troll?
Mountain troll gets 2d10 bote and 2d6 claws. Has rend, regeneración, rock throwing and rock catching.
Only reason to leave is if you fight a lit of sonic damage, por maybe if you want fire/frost giant for resist. Plus the last book seems to be a dungeon fight vs Cloud Giants, which are huge. I bet they have corridors big enough for them :)


On first reading it does appear a Mammoth Rider/Goliath Druid could indeed cast enlarge person on their Huge mount (as that size increase isn't a polymorph effect and and thus the mount/animal companion's base size is now Huge much as it likely went to Large at 7th level). A regular Druid could use Animal Growth and even a Goliath Druid would probably use Animal Growth first as the boosts are better keeping Enlargr Person for emergencies.


Well, then only the +2 STR an +2 CON from Mammoth Rider is lost EDIT: while enlarged, I mean


no - I believe that Size bonuses are one of those somewhat unusual bonuses that stack when they are applicable - i.e. when you go up multiple size levels you get all of the bonuses between the size you were and your final size.

(In general multiple size changes are rare but there are other cases that can result it them)


the Size modifier (to attacks and AC) is determined by the size you are - the STR and CON (and DEX) bonuses or penalties I believe apply from each size difference that is applied (i.e. if you started out diminutive and ended up gargantuan you would get a whole bunch of modifiers along the way)


I'm not sure of that, but it'll be nice if it's true. I'll search a bit to see if I find something


What I hace found says that size bonuses are like regular bonuses. They don't stack because they have the same name. You get the extra sized damage die, and size penalty to att and AC


see http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html#table-2 -2-size-changes

note the "repeat the adjustment if the creature mopes up more than one size" footnote


Bit those aren't named "size" bonus. The Giant template for example does have "size bonus" in the name, just like enlarge person and mammoth rider. The bonus that your companion gain at lvl 7 for example is unnamed, and thus stack with animal growth


gotcha - I missed that the Mammoth prestige class gave a Size bonus (the question then is if you get both a normal change of size bonus and the "size bonus" or only the called out size bonus (I suspect the latter but it isn't entirely clear because the change is a permanent one not a temporary change) - but the example of Animal companions do show that the bonuses on gaining a size do vary


mammoth stacks with the regular druid companion bonus. It wouldn't stack with animal growth or enlarge person


gustavo iglesias wrote:

mammoth is interesting, a Huge T-Rex is awesome (huge vital strike there with Strong Jaw, great Grab bonus with huge size).

I'm thinking if I should take it. But probably isn't worth it before 12th lvl, it will delay giant form wildshape. And once there, you have to choose between lvl 7 spells, and giant forma II, or the pet, which might not be usefull always (although in this AP you probably have more room for big asses, and narrow frame is ok.
However, riding a huge t-rex is as cool as you can get :/

Riding a huge trex while a giant and weilding a lance for triple damage with a lance and spirited charge is even better. Especially if your lance has impact or leadblades.


Gigantic mount stacks with enlarge.

Edited for accuracy.

Trex cant be a mammoth rider pet. But a stegasaurus can. The DM can say otherwise.

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