Sorry about the provocative title. I'm really hoping that you guys can teach me something here rather than the other way around, but I figured a clickbaity thread title would draw the necessary crowd. A poster's got to do what a poster's got to do to get some replies, know what I'm saying? Sorry.
Seriously though, you're all wrong about Reincarnate.
Specifically, you are wrong about the whole "mental stats retention" thing. Another player and I recently got into a kerfuffle over whether or not PCs mental stats are left completely unchanged with the spell Reincarnate. As we often do with these disputes we took it to these boards. I love these forums. They host some great people and are just a fantastic resource for both players and GMs. And, sure enough, we found that although most people thought the spell's wording a little wobbly the board has a consensus: only physical stats are altered by Reincarnate. Mental stats are left as is.
And yet the more I look at the spell the less I understand this conclusion. I can't see anything, anything at all, in the spell's description that would imply that mental stats are left unaltered.
This is all Reincarnate has to say about one's ability scores:
"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
It seems so clear cut to me. Racial ability adjustments are eliminated. All of them. The halfling's Dex bonus? Gone. His Str penalty? Also gone. And his Cha bonus? Yeah, that too. Why shouldn't it?
What am I missing here? I'm still new to the game but I know these forums. Smart people frequent them. They can't all be wrong. And yet I just can't see where this accepted reading of Reincarnate comes from. Which is a problem for me, as I like to play most everything by the books.
Could someone please tell me what an idiot I am and explain this?
Arthur G wrote: Sorry about the provocative title. I'm really hoping that you guys can teach me something here rather than the other way around, but I figured a clickbaity thread title would draw the necessary crowd. A poster's got to do what a poster's got to do to get some replies, know what I'm saying? Sorry. The problem though, is that when you intentionally mislead people and then ask them to help you, they'll usually feel less inclined to actually do that.
Sure you know what you're doing is a bad thing (since you apologize for doing it), but acknowledging that, still does not make it right.
You know I can see your point of view on this, but there are cases for the mental stats remaining. The only Ability scores even mentioned in the spell are Str, Dex, and Con. Not Int, Cha, Wis. Also supporting this is the table in the spell itself in the Core rulebook that only contains Racial Adjustments for Str, Dex, and Con based on the race you are reincarnated into. I'm usually not a rules - lawyer, but if the chart included with the spell only affects Str, Dex, and Con then why would the spell alter mental stats?
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The rules say what you DO, not what you don't. Basically, the character's mental ability scores stay the same because Reincarnate doesn't say you change them. His physical abilities might be altered, but he recalls most of his former life and, as such, retains his mental ability scores as normal.
Rikkan wrote: The problem though, is that when you intentionally mislead people and then ask them to help you, they'll usually feel less inclined to actually do that.
Sure you know what you're doing is a bad thing (since you apologize for doing it), but acknowledging that, still does not make it right.
I kinda meant the thread title and introduction as a joke, if I'm honest. Although I don't like it what I'm doing with this thread is essentially calling out the collective intelligence of the PF Rules forum. And, hoo boy, was that a scary prospect. I mean, calling out a board of rules-lawyers far more experienced than me? When I'm already inclined to think that I've probably got something wrong? Yeesh. So I decided that the only way to go about it was to treat my query with some levity. But then humor, contrary to popular opinion, is not a universal language. Sorry if I caused any offense.
Jericho and Davor: I see what you're saying, or at least I hope I do, but Reincarnate just says that racial ability scores are eliminated. Surely that includes Int, Wis and Cha? The way I read it the specific mention of Str, Con and Dex in the previous line just refers to what is gained upon obtaining an all new body, not what is lost in the spell.
"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
Now if these two sentences were just separated by a semicolon rather than a full stop I'd be all with you. But as written I'm left wondering.
Arthur G wrote: Rikkan wrote: The problem though, is that when you intentionally mislead people and then ask them to help you, they'll usually feel less inclined to actually do that.
Sure you know what you're doing is a bad thing (since you apologize for doing it), but acknowledging that, still does not make it right.
I kinda meant the thread title and introduction as a joke, if I'm honest. Although I don't like it what I'm doing with this thread is essentially calling out the collective intelligence of the PF Rules forum. And, hoo boy, was that a scary prospect. I mean, calling out a board of rules-lawyers far more experienced than me? When I'm already inclined to think that I've probably got something wrong? Yeesh. So I decided that the only way to go about it was to treat my query with some levity. But then humor, contrary to popular opinion, is not a universal language. Sorry if I caused any offense.
Jericho and Davor: I see what you're saying, or at least I hope I do, but Reincarnate just says that racial ability scores are eliminated. Surely that includes Int, Wis and Cha? The way I read it the specific mention of Str, Con and Dex in the previous line just refers to what is gained upon obtaining an all new body, not what is lost in the spell.
"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
Now if these two sentences were just separated by a semicolon rather than a full stop I'd be all with you. But as written I'm left wondering. It doesn't say to eliminate their racial ability SCORES, it says to eliminate racial ability ADJUSTMENTS (bonuses to an ability score granted by a race). Your BASE attribute was determined at character creation, and as written, would be left unchanged (aside from removing a racial bonus to said score, such as a gnome's +2 Charisma, etc.).
Check this thread.
James Jacobs wrote: Abraham spalding wrote: Which means a human reincarnated as a half elf, then an elf has two more feats than a 'normal' character of that level would have... one from being human and a skill focus he picks up for being half elf? This is an increasingly tricky subject, since what it's sort of doing is treating races as templates. But basically... if you're reincarnated, your mental faculties remain unchanged but your physical ones change to match your new race. Since the game doesn't spell out exactly which is which, it takes a fair bit of GM interpretation for this.
So... a human reincarnated as a half elf would probably retain his bonus feat from being human, but would NOT gain the bonus Skill Focus feat from becoming a half elf.
The point is, you should NEVER be allowed to "collect" racial traits by being reincarnated over and over and over. Keeping the mental stuff constant and changing the physical each time to match the new body seems to be the most constant and logical method to handle it. Also, this thread.
James Jacobs wrote: Reincarnate is a pretty strange and complex spell. It's certainly one of those that every GM should look at and decided exactly how he wants to run things in his game (awaken and simulacrum and miracle and wish are similar in this regard).
The way I handle reincarnation effects in adventures and sourcebooks is to follow the guidelines as guidenlines, not rules. If a human gets reincarnated as a troglodyte, they'd retain any mental human abilities, but would lose physical ones. They'd gain troglodyte physical abilities, but lose mental ones.
For this case, it's actaully pretty clear-cut.
The human, upone being reincarnated, would back out his +2 bonus to an ability score if it had been applied to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; if that bonus had been applied to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, he would not lose it. He gains the Trog's mods as listed, along with all of the troglodyte's attacks, stench, darkvision, armor, and stealth bonus for being able to shift his coloration.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
As for what his CR would be... if he's a player, that doesn't matter at all. CR isn't for player characters. He's now more powerful than the other characters in the party, of course, and that presents some challenges to the GM... but not so much if the other players aren't jealous and are cool about things. The GM, of course, can do what he needs to do to make the PC's new life as a troglodyte relatively rough and miserable, of course, since that kind of change would wreak havock on family and relationships and even simple trips to the grocery store.
If this is an NPC, once you rebuild all the stats, just sit down and look at it as a whole. Chances are good that the modifications to its attacks, AC, and other features warrant a +1 or maybe even a +2 bonus to CR, depending on how the final stat block looks compared to Table 1–1 in the Bestiary and monsters of similar CR scores.
{My bold}
I really like James Jacobs ruling, and it makes perfect sense in my mind. However, the point about the ability score bonus is contrary to what the spell dictates, so I wouldn't consider it a RAW ruling, but definitely a RAI one.
Arthur G wrote: This is all Reincarnate has to say about one's ability scores:
"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
Seems pretty clear to me as well. Since only the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body, those are the only ones meant in the following sentence.
Mental abilities don't depend on the body and thus aren't affected.
Davor wrote: It doesn't say to eliminate their racial ability SCORES, it says to eliminate racial ability ADJUSTMENTS (bonuses to an ability score granted by a race). Your BASE attribute was determined at character creation, and as written, would be left unchanged (aside from removing a racial bonus to said score, such as a gnome's +2 Charisma,... Sorry, sorry, you are of course right. I miswrote there. As written Reincarnate refers only to racial adjustments, not to base scores in any way. We're on the same page there.
And huge thanks, Joana. Those quotations absolutely help and I am not at all opposed to using Reincarnate as the good sir Jacobs suggests. But I can't help but feel that the spell as written does not support his understanding of it. I'm still hung up on those racial ability adjustments. Do base scores carry over? Yeah. Do the bonuses to mental stats from advanced age categories carry over? Sure, I can see the argument for that. But nowhere do I see why racial adjustments should do so.
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Arthur G wrote: Davor wrote: It doesn't say to eliminate their racial ability SCORES, it says to eliminate racial ability ADJUSTMENTS (bonuses to an ability score granted by a race). Your BASE attribute was determined at character creation, and as written, would be left unchanged (aside from removing a racial bonus to said score, such as a gnome's +2 Charisma,... Sorry, sorry, you are of course right. I miswrote there. As written Reincarnate refers only to racial adjustments, not to base scores in any way. We're on the same page there.
And huge thanks, Joana. Those quotations absolutely help and I am not at all opposed to using Reincarnate as the good sir Jacobs suggests. But I can't help but feel that the spell as written does not support his understanding of it. I'm still hung up on those racial ability adjustments. Do base scores carry over? Yeah. Do the bonuses to mental stats from advanced age categories carry over? Sure, I can see the argument for that. But nowhere do I see why racial adjustments should do so. Well, you can rule however you please and justify it however you like, but it does explicitly say "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body."
It does not say - "All ability scores depend partly on the new body" or "Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores depend partly on the new body."
It just says physical stats. If that isn't the intent, why is it in the spell description? Losing your previous race's mental stat adjustments, while not gaining any from the new race is even harder to justify than keeping your original mental adjustments.
thejeff wrote:
Mental abilities don't depend on the body and thus aren't affected.
So the size, shape, chemical composition and density of your brain doesn't affect your mental capabilities? Seems legit.
I accept that Them's Da Rulez© in Pathfinder, but I don't agree that it should be or that it makes sense.
Barathos wrote: thejeff wrote:
Mental abilities don't depend on the body and thus aren't affected.
So the size, shape, chemical composition and density of your brain doesn't affect your mental capabilities? Seems legit.
I accept that Them's Da Rulez© in Pathfinder, but I don't agree that it should be or that it makes sense. That would also be a valid approach, but it's not even hinted at in the rules which say "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." (Which, by the way is what I was referring to, not making a philosophical or scientific point.)
If you were going to take that approach though, you would really need to adjust mental stats based on the new body, not just remove the adjustments from the old race. And that is emphatically not in the spell.
thejeff wrote: Well, you can rule however you please and justify it however you like, but it does explicitly say "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body."
It does not say - "All ability scores depend partly on the new body" or "Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores depend partly on the new body."
It just says physical stats. If that isn't the intent, why is it in the spell description? Losing your previous race's mental stat adjustments, while not gaining any from the new race is even harder to justify than keeping your original mental adjustments.
I'm really not trying to justify anything through anything other than the wording of the spell. As you point out the spell highlights Str, Con and Dex but I think we disagree about why it actually does so.
"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
The two sentences above definitely relate to each other, but the way I read it the scores mentioned are providing context to "the adjustments found below", and that's all. That bit right there about "eliminat[ing] the subject's racial adjustments"? I can't see the mention of Str, Dex and Con being read as to say that Int, Wis and Cha are excluded from this elimination. The purpose of mentioning the physical stats explicitly is for the benefit of the accompanying table.
If it isn't clear already what I'm concerned about here is the wording of Reincarnate. That's all. I'm not so much interested in the in-game logic of someone becoming smarter/dumber through gaining a new body, although, like Barathos, I can see an argument for it. Why shouldn't an all new brain come with its own quirks, regardless of the mind that occupies it?
The halfling turned human finds that people are less trusting of him now that he no longer has an unassuming and dainty form. The elf turned orc soon realizes that this new mind is quite physically more sluggish and slow than his previous form.
To make all mental ability scores purely societal in origin rather than at least partly biological seems a disservice to all these diverse fantasy races.
Arthur G wrote: thejeff wrote: Well, you can rule however you please and justify it however you like, but it does explicitly say "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body."
It does not say - "All ability scores depend partly on the new body" or "Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores depend partly on the new body."
It just says physical stats. If that isn't the intent, why is it in the spell description? Losing your previous race's mental stat adjustments, while not gaining any from the new race is even harder to justify than keeping your original mental adjustments.
I'm really not trying to justify anything through anything other than the wording of the spell. As you point out the spell highlights Str, Con and Dex but I think we disagree about why it actually does so.
"Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
The two sentences above definitely relate to each other, but the way I read it the scores mentioned are providing context to "the adjustments found below", and that's all. That bit right there about "eliminat[ing] the subject's racial adjustments"? I can't see the mention of Str, Dex and Con being read as to say that Int, Wis and Cha are excluded from this elimination. The purpose of mentioning the physical stats explicitly is for the benefit of the accompanying table.
If it isn't clear already what I'm concerned about here is the wording of Reincarnate. That's all. I'm not so much interested in the in-game logic of someone becoming smarter/dumber through gaining a new body, although, like Barathos, I can see an argument for it. Why shouldn't an all new brain come with its own quirks, regardless of the mind that occupies it? If it isn't clear already what I'm concerned about here is the wording of Reincarnate. That's all. I'm not so much interested in the in-game logic of someone becoming smarter/dumber through gaining a new body, although, like Barathos, I can see an argument for it. Why shouldn't an all new brain come with its own quirks, regardless of the mind that occupies it?
The halfling turned human finds that people are less trusting of him now that he no longer has an unassuming and dainty form. The elf turned orc soon realizes that this new mind is quite physically more sluggish and slow than his previous form.
To make all mental ability scores purely societal in origin rather than at least partly biological seems a disservice to all these diverse fantasy races. It doesn't have to be purely societal. It can be "It's your mind in a new body". Magic. After all genetic powers like bloodline abilities follow through reincarnation, so why not.
And again, in your interpretation, although you lose the adjustments for your previous race, you don't gain anything from your new one, so it still doesn't matter what the new race is. In fact, even if you reincarnated into the same race, you'd lose mental adjustments. The elf turned elf would find this new mind more sluggish and slow than his previous form.
Just from the language you quoted from Reincarnate, I see no reason to take your approach. The first sentence tells you that the physical stats change. The second details how. No reason I can see to assume the first sentence only refers to the second half of the second sentence. If the new changes the mental stats, even just by removing the old adjustments, then it's not just the physical ones that depend on it.
thejeff wrote: Barathos wrote: thejeff wrote:
Mental abilities don't depend on the body and thus aren't affected.
So the size, shape, chemical composition and density of your brain doesn't affect your mental capabilities? Seems legit.
I accept that Them's Da Rulez© in Pathfinder, but I don't agree that it should be or that it makes sense. That would also be a valid approach, but it's not even hinted at in the rules which say "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." (Which, by the way is what I was referring to, not making a philosophical or scientific point.)
If you were going to take that approach though, you would really need to adjust mental stats based on the new body, not just remove the adjustments from the old race. And that is emphatically not in the spell. That's cool, I was just disputing your reasoning for why it's not affected by reincarnation.
I do take that approach in my homebrew ("so homebrew it's misleading to call it Pathfinder"). A 20 INT elf reincarnated as an orc would have 16 INT. But that's neither here nor there for this thread, you guys have fun.
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thejeff wrote: It doesn't have to be purely societal. It can be "It's your mind in a new body". Magic. After all genetic powers like bloodline abilities follow through reincarnation, so why not. Pretty much. Ultimately, some of these questions do indeed boil down to a somewhat unsatisfying if sufficient answer.
Because magic. The rules work the way they do on this one because A Wizard Did It (or, rather, a Druid in this case).
If you're baleful polymorphed and make your second save, you keep your mental stats in a rabbit/toad/whatever's body, and a small, harmless animal certainly has a brain of a more divergent size, shape, chemical composition, and density from your starting race than a halfling/half-orc/what-have-you.
I see your points, I really do, and I appreciate your comments but I was really hoping for someone to convince me that "eliminate the subject's racial adjustments" doesn't mean eliminating all of the subjects racial adjustments. It seems so clear to me this would be the case.
The distinction between a semicolon and a full stop has never been so relevant before in my life.
Arthur G wrote: I see your points, I really do, and I appreciate your comments but I was really hoping for someone to convince me that "eliminate the subject's racial adjustments" doesn't mean eliminating all of the subjects racial adjustments. It seems so clear to me this would be the case.
The distinction between a semicolon and a full stop has never been so relevant before in my life.
The basic problem is that you're parsing the rules down to that level, when they weren't written with anywhere near that much attention to detail.
Arthur G wrote: I see your points, I really do, and I appreciate your comments but I was really hoping for someone to convince me that "eliminate the subject's racial adjustments" doesn't mean eliminating all of the subjects racial adjustments. It seems so clear to me this would be the case.
The distinction between a semicolon and a full stop has never been so relevant before in my life.
You asked for the board's collective wisdom; you have received it: the collective says that your interpretation is not the one they use (mostly - one person says they change all stats, which is explicitly not how the spell is written to work). They have also explained why they think that.
You may choose to accept it, or ignore it. But why ask if you don't want to hear the answer?
It seems clear to me: the spell only mentions physical stats. Why would it affect mental ones when they are not mentioned?
It doesn't mention many other aspects of a character: eg traits. Would they change? What about outlook? Would an elf turned into a troglodyte also find themselves changing their diet to match their new body? Why/why not?
Whichever way you play it, as long as you and the other players enjoy it, is correct.
If all of the above doesn't persuade you, I don't know what will. You have not given a convincing counter-argument to any of the point's raised. You cling to one small grammatical point, ignoring all the other overwhelming evidence.
"There are none so blind than those who will not see".
The whole spell including the table needs to be read in it's entirety. you cannot isolate one sentence and try to apply that out of context.
The absence of mental stats on the table is a hugely relevant fact. Can it really be right for an elf re-incarnated as a dwarf to lose 2 points of intelligence but not gain the adjustments to wisdom and charisma?
Gilarius wrote: You asked for the board's collective wisdom; you have received it: the collective says that your interpretation is not the one they use (mostly - one person says they change all stats, which is explicitly not how the spell is written to work). They have also explained why they think that.
You may choose to accept it, or ignore it. But why ask if you don't want to hear the answer?
I did indeed ask, that I did. Gave people free range to call me an idiot too. But I don't think anyone really answered the fantastically poorly worded question asked. I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm really not. But most answers have been about the fluff regarding reincarnation, whereas what I'm inquiring about is why all racial adjustments don't disappear with one's race when the text seems to imply it.
I don't have an erroneous interpretation of anything. Dude, I don't even have any interpretation of this spell. That's why I'm here. When it's me against a thousand I'm inclined to think I'm wrong. I'm just a guy confused as to how I'm wrong.
Gilarius wrote: Whichever way you play it, as long as you and the other players enjoy it, is correct. Oh, if anyone's curious I can tell you that I intend to play Reincarnate exactly as the board suggests if it ever comes up. For my players' sake I am more than willing to concede this point.
dragonhunterq wrote: If all of the above doesn't persuade you, I don't know what will. You have not given a convincing counter-argument to any of the point's raised. You cling to one small grammatical point, ignoring all the other overwhelming evidence.
"There are none so blind than those who will not see".
The whole spell including the table needs to be read in it's entirety. you cannot isolate one sentence and try to apply that out of context.
The absence of mental stats on the table is a hugely relevant fact. Can it really be right for an elf re-incarnated as a dwarf to lose 2 points of intelligence but not gain the adjustments to wisdom and charisma?
But that grammatical point is my point. It is my one and only point. Again, it's the wording I'm concerned about. It's just the wording I'm concerned about. And I'm not disputing the entire spell. I'm only confused as to how people reached their conclusion regarding the retention of mental stats. As such it seems excusable to isolate that very small part of the text that deals with this. I'm not concerned with what is "right" or wrong about any spell. It's just that darn wording.
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