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a n y o n e ? . . .
I'm not sure if there will be any interest in this but I wouldn't mind starting a Thread in which we pick a title to read and then begin a little discussion.
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a n y o n e ? . . . (Ray hopes & prays)
So, I'll throw out a few titles in the literary canon, give a brief description, and if you're interested in joining, vote for a book 'till we settle on one and we in the Paizo community can discuss.
No "Pooh-Poohers," please. If you're not into canon, no big deal, but don't ruin the Thread.
*------------------------------------------------*
Any interest in one of the following for a 1st book?
The Awakening by Kate Chopin
Cry, The Beloved Country by Alan Paton
Paton and his two editors, Aubrey and Marigold Burns, upon preparing to send the manuscript to Scribner for publication, had a problem: they couldn't come up with a title. To solve the dilemma they had a contest. Each would secretly write a title on scrap paper. Then they would anonymously share, deciding which of the 3 possibles would get to be the title. They each privately wrote their proposal, then shared.
They all had propsed Cry, The Beloved Country.
Push by Sapphire
Little Dorrit by Charles Dickens
So, any interest????
Lemme know if you're interested and let us know if one of the aforementioned novels sounds good. Hopefully there will be some interest AND consensus on a book in which to begin.
-W. E. Ray
I'd be interested, but the unstated requirement that all of the literature be focused on civil rights seems somewhat restrictive. Is that what you meant by "canonical"?
I'm in. And well versed in American and Brit Lit.
As long as picks don't start coming in like "The Devil Wears Prada," I like the idea.
ACE
I'm in. Going to have to make a few trips to the library first.
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I'd be interested, but the unstated requirement that all of the literature be focused on civil rights seems somewhat restrictive. Is that what you meant by "canonical"?
The literary canon is the ever changing "list" of texts and, in many cases authors, that literary critics deem worthy of discussion and criticism.
So, if a whole bunch o' Lit profs are "working on" Shakespeare, Shakespeare's in the canon. Of course, that particular author is the biggest name in the canon, as more has been written on his works than any other.
Any genre in the canon is fine by me though the few titles I mentioned in the OP are intentionally quite easy -- so as to make this Thread more user friendly to any interested Paizonians.
-W. E. Ray
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WooHoo!
Gut feelings on a book for the first?
My recommendation is The Awakening by Kate Chopin. Any votes, "yea" or "nay" for starting with that one? Feel free to opine one way or the other. Once we decide I figure a week or so to let everyone get a copy and begin -- does this sound like enough time?
-W. E. Ray
WooHoo!
Gut feelings on a book for the first?
My recommendation is The Awakening by Kate Chopin. Any votes, "yea" or "nay" for starting with that one? Feel free to opine one way or the other. Once we decide I figure a week or so to let everyone get a copy and begin -- does this sound like enough time?
-W. E. Ray
wizard
Sure...fem lit will work.
As ever,
ACE
Other than Paton, you really missed my reading lists with those, Molech, but then there are a lot of books out there, no? In regards to Chopin, although I have not read it, I am somewhat familiar with The Awakening due to its prominence in feminist academic reference.
I've got a friend coming for a visit so I'll see if he can pick some of these up... but it may be too late.
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I was just playin' witcha about Dickens; I know you teach Brit Lit.
Never too late -- we're just gonna choose 1 title and then after a good week or so discuss it for a little while. Then hopefully pick another title.
I'd love to have you in the discussions. If we go with Chopin as our first book (I'd like to see if the Thread gets a little more response), you should still have time to get a copy and read it before we begin.
But hey, if getting a certain book in China is too difficult let us know; we can always choose another.
-W. E. Ray
I was just playin' witcha about Dickens; I know you teach Brit Lit.
Never too late -- we're just gonna choose 1 title and then after a good week or so discuss it for a little while. Then hopefully pick another title.
I'd love to have you in the discussions. If we go with Chopin as our first book (I'd like to see if the Thread gets a little more response), you should still have time to get a copy and read it before we begin.
But hey, if getting a certain book in China is too difficult let us know; we can always choose another.
-W. E. Ray
The school library is closed for Chinese New Year so I'm SOL for a good month.
There's some book talk over here, too.
I am in for 'The Awakening.' I will get to the library or find it online within the next couple of days. I am currently working my way through 'Robinson Crusoe' for the first time. It looks like 'The Awakening' is about 130 pages. If everyone agrees, would mid-February be a good date? Say 2/15 to start discussion? Or push it back a week to 2/22?
Here's audio and more for anyone interested. Librivox is one of the best sites around:
http://librivox.org/the-awakening-by-kate-chopin/
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Happy New Year, Kruelaid; but I thought it wasn't until the 3rd or 4th of Feb. Anyhoo, thanks for posting the link to the Planet Stories Discussion Thread you started. I never get to read Smith, Moorcock, Lovecraft or the others Mona is publishing and am not familiar with Black God's Kiss but thanks nonetheless. This is a great Thread to post that link.
I am trying to begin a Thread that promotes discussion on canononical texts, stuff most folks (we Paizonians included) usually don't read and perhaps have monotonous memories of when they were forced to back in school.
. . .
Thanks Jocund, for the link to downloadable texts. Hopefully any who want to participate but can't get a hard copy can just download the texts. ... Um, should I call you "Jocund"?
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The Awakening by Kate Chopin it is!
It will be better, I think if we begin discussing "as" we read the text. The end of chapter 6 is a great place to begin -- that's about 15 pages. We just gotta decide when to begin.
To keep the Thread alive while we're spending a couple weeks reading we can post occassional tidbits of stuff or whatever.
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I'll start by throwing out 3 things to consider, general advice on canonical lit.
1} I don't recommend reading plot summaries or criticism. And certainly not before you finish reading the text. Plot summaries are really no good. These texts, unlike mass market pop-fiction, are great not necessarily because of the story itself but because of the style. It's the way they are written, the way the story is presented. And by definition, a plot summary ruins this. There is no substitution for the text.
2} Keep a dictionary handy. Chopin's Awakening is quite easy; nonetheless, there will be times when you have NO IDEA what you just read. Sometimes this is because of vocabulary. Occassionally it's good to first scan a page or two of text, underlining the words you need to look up; look them up and run them through your thesaurus, too. Get to know the word/s superficially well; then go back and read the text. Perhaps "lugger," "camomile," "evince" and "efface," all in the first few pages of The Awakening, are new. Perhaps not, but the point of keeping the dictionary and thesaurus handy remains.
3} Like the second consideration, this one is often a "make or break" for understanding what's going on. A) Feel free to go back and reread B) Feel free to read slowly B) Feel free to write down character names and any bits of relationship info down for reference later. These are not mass market paperbacks. Redundancy doesn't happen unless the author has a good reason to double-mention. Missing one word can derail chapters of understanding. And expect the authors to be very subtle.
-W. E. Ray
If you don't mind I'd like to join.
I'll be reading the first 6 chapters tonight and commenting later.
I think this is a great idea!
EDIT: Forgive my haste - reading the thread more closely I can see we aren't starting right this second! I did read the first 6 chapters, but I'll wait to comment until we get started.
Have you taught this novel, Molech?
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Hey, Whimsy, no problem. I was going to wait a few days and post a little info on the book but it's not necessary. One thing, to set the tone Chopin uses a lot of French Creole phrases and words in the first few chapters. I am going to give a translation in a few days for folks who have copies without translations provided (also, some editions' tranlation notes REALLY suck).
Kruelaid: um, no coment (is that okay?)
-W. E. Ray
So, uh, when do we get started?
You can call me Chuck.
So, uh, when do we get started?
Yah, how is this being organized?
As ever,
ACE
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Alrighty,
As far as organization, I don't think it needs much and we can "play it by ear." I do feel we should name (and try to keep) dates for pages read -- kinda like an invisible whip behind us so we actually finish the texts we select and not procrastinate.
In general, I'll post a couple of ideas and a few quotes to begin or whatever and let anyone respond. After we get started other posters are likely to add their own ideas, perhaps different from ones already mentioned and we can all just post reponses. (Quotes are your friend!)
Later tonight I'll give a post translating the French Creole phrases Chopin uses early on in The Awakening (to ch. 6) for those with copies w/out footnotes (and those whose footnotes suck).
By Saturday, 2 Feb I'll post the first few ideas & quotes to get us started -- I'll not include "spoilers" from the first 6 chapters, certainly not from the whole book.
Then we'll see how it goes. See what works.
I'm not sure if everyone yet has a copy; and it's possible that a couple folks won't have time to read anything till this weekend (I won't). But I think that by Mon, 4 Feb we should be able to have read and can start adding posts up to ch 6. ...
Someone earlier posted a date a few weeks later than that as a possible start but I think he(?) meant for finishing the whole book.
-W. E. Ray
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The Awakening textual notes for chapters 1-6. Notes are mine, collected from various editions over the years and in some cases elaborated on from my own opinions.
Ch.1
"Allez vous-en! Allez vous-en! Sapristi!"
-Go away! Go away! For God's sake!
"Grand Isle"
-is a small "vacation" area south of New Orleans right on the Gulf. It's important to note that Chopin wrote this story only a few years after a tremendous hurricane nearly destroyed Grand Isle (1893).
Zampa
-A French opera written about 75 years earlier by Ferdinand Herold. Zampa is a marble statue of a woman betrayed by her lover who comes to life to avenge herself and save another woman from the same fate by crushing her unfaithful lover in her marble arms until he drowns in the sea.
"pension"
-Kinda like a boarding house.
"Cheniere Caminada"
-Best I can give you is that this is a place next to Grand Isle across a small bay.
"lugger"
-small boat w/ a sail & oars.
"quadroon"
-a person of 1/4 African heritage and 3/4 Caucasion heritage.
Ch. 2
The Poet and the Peasant
-An Austrian Operetta by Franz von Suppe'
Ch. 3
"peignoir"
-a nightgown or dressing gown.
"mules"
-slippers.
"rockway"
-carriage.
"friandises"
-sweets, decadents.
"pates"
-pastries
"Carondelet St."
-New Orleans financial district -- like Wall St.
Ch. 4
"Creole"
-Chopin uses this term to denote an Aristocrat.
By the early 18th century the "Creoles" had really developed sophisticated cultural norms and protocols... Just in case: A Creole is a descendant of French & Spanish settlers in New Orleans.
"accouchements"
-literally "confinement" but interestingly used to mean "childbirth" here.
Ch. 5
"Daudet"
-Alphonse Daudet. 19th century French author (who had just died before Chopin wrote this). A Naturalist who wrote light, comic satire in his early career and then developed into a much darker, angrier author writing indictments of society.
"Par example!"
-Good story! Or, Oh really!
"Passez! Adieu! Allez vous-en!"
-Go! Goodbye! Go away!
"Blaguer -- farceur -- gros bete va!"
-Jester -- joker -- come off it!
"Mais ce n'est pas mal! Elle s'y connait, elle a de la force, oui."
-That's not bad! She knows what she's doing. She has talent, doesn't she.
Ch. 6
Chapter 6 is the most important chapter in the novel! Chopin knew this writing it and thus added no French or unusual phrases for her readers.*
*NOTE. When giving opinions of interpretable material, such as literature, state your opinion as fact. Though it is my opinion that Ch.6 is the most important, I state is as FACT. The popular "IMHO" is crap.
-W. E. Ray
Thank you for this - I'll have to reread these chapters with these bits of information in mind.
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The following 2 posts will be kinda like "pre-reading" starter thoughts. They're two ideas that I think'll be fun to discuss as we read the book. There aren't any spoilers, here, so feel free to read over them even if you haven't started the text.
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Because no one's hollored out, I'm assuming that Mon, 4 Feb is a good time to start poting specific ideas for the first 6 chapters. LOL, it seems Chris has already started; we may be chasing his reading pace for the whole novel.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy these "starter" ideas.
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A good friend of mine has a peculiar theory / belief.
The Italian, French and Spanish peoples will never (even have never) exert long lasting political power or influence over Germanic, Anglo-Saxon or Slavic peoples -- Because of their "weak character."
My friend has never read Chopin, an author of Gaelic descent who wrote about Creoles.
Hmmm.
He is French, though, born 1930.
He went to St. Cyr (Europe's West Point) shortly after The War and spent the 50s and 60s as a French Intelligence Officer, Logistics, in Iron Curtain Bulgaria where he, among other things, translated Russian, German, Bulgarian and Greek to French during the most frightning years of the Cold War.
At some levels, I kinda view The Awakening as a stage for weak characters becomming strong -- or strong characters becomming weak -- or maybe characters who seem strong but are weak, or vice versa. This dynamic of the novel's characters is one of my favorites. Is Edna Pontellier strong or weak?, I often wonder. Or her husband, Leonce? Robert Lebrun?
As you get into the novel, see what you think. Maybe you can make up my mind for me; I don't seem to have a strong enough character.
-W. E. Ray
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I'm not what you'd call a "family man." I am married -- to my career. I won't have kids and that's partly because I want to spend all my time on my career and hobies, what I love. Not a family.
But I'm also very much a believer in familial responsibility. I'm the kinda guy who would spend my resources on a wife and kids. My whole salary. All my off hours. Heck, I'd curb my substantial "on" hours for "family time."
And there's something to be said for both extremes. Should you follow what you love, what YOU love, such as a career, or do you follow (often w/ compromise) your familial responsibilites?
I think this is the crux of Chopin's novel. Not just for Edna Pontellier but also Robert Lebrun -- AND Leonce Pontellier. What will we think of Edna? Of any of these characters? Sure, Edna Pontellier won't win any "Mother-of-the-year" contests, but she's no Dean Moriarty, either!
-W. E. Ray
Through Chapter 22...i'll reserve serious discussion for those who would like to bring up topics. If you read a bunch of literature, you can pick out the tropes and themes that most interest you in a text. Those are typically the stories that the individual can connect to most intimately and are recalled best with that reader even after they finish the story from cover to cover. I just wanted those of us who are going to discuss The Awakening to know that this is not one of those books that resonates with me. So, I'll probably pick a mode of study to approach this text and stick with it not because i'm passionate about the topic, but as a personal intellectual exercise and to perhaps interest someone else to passionately take up where my rhetoric leaves off on this subject.
As ever,
ACE
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Well, sorry for the slight delay; got behind in work cuz of Super Bowl weekend and just now read the opening chapters before starting this post. I'm gonna throw out a few observations on the opening 6 chapters, often giving quotes, and hopefully you'll have something to say. Likewise, I hope you have some thoughts on a few observations you made and want to throw them out here too.
I guess the first time I read this novel the first line that jumped out at me, immediately making me think of Leonce Pontellier as a dick-head, is how he "(looks) at his wife as one looks at a valuable piece of personal property which has suffered some damage" (Ch.1) when she comes back from bathing in the Gulf with Robert Lebrun and is sunburned.
Then, to make it worse, he seems so dense when he comes home later that night (Ch.3), wakes her up, and "thought it very discouraging that his wife... evinced so little interest in things which concerned him, and valued so little his conversation." (my bold) I mean, she's asleep; wtf do you expect her to do; it's late night, dude?
As such, my initial dislike of him biased me against him to the drama that goes on in Ch.3: Leonce thinks Raoul has a fever and Edna doesn't. Leonce "reproaches" her for her "habitual neglect" of the kids.
Now, Ch.4 states quite directly that Edna is Not a "mother-woman." She sometimes loves her kids and sometimes FORGETS them! Yeah, her kids, ages 4 & 5(!) don't run cryin' to Mama when they get hurt and sometimes Edna -- as she somewhat relates to Adele in Ch.5 -- isn't happy to have kids at all.
So, is Edna a bad mother for her kids? Is Leonce right?! Is Raoul really "consuming at that moment"? Of course, just as a side note, after Leonce tells Edna to check on Raoul he goes to the door and smokes a cigar!
-W. E. Ray
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Okay, here's an observation for you -- how many noticed that before Edna goes to bathe in the Gulf with Robert Lebrun in Ch.1, she gives her rings to her husband?
Sure, she just doesn't want to lose them, right? Riiiight...
You know, Chapters 1 through 4 really seem like they're setting up an affair between Robert and Edna. Check out the ages of the 3 members -- Leonce is 40 (Ch.1); Robert is 26 (Ch.5); Edna is 28 (I'm pretty Damn sure but I can't find it and don't want to look right now.)
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Okay, I'm not pushing Allegory here but right after Chopin first describes Madame Lebrun -- as "clad always in white" (Ch.1) the "lady in black... telling her beads" is immediately (and for the first time) mentioned.
And that lady in black seems to always show up at random spots. In Ch.5 when Edna and Adele are chatting on the beach that "lady in black" is again mentioned, this time with the young lovers.
WTF
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Adele Ratignolle.
Now, I'm gonna say it right out -- this chick (equally with one other not yet introduced) is the most important character in the novel after Edna!
Chopin's already said that Edna is not one of those "mother-women" -- well make no mistake, Adele IS!
Adele Ratignolle is "the embodiment of every womanly grace and charm." "There was nothing subtle or hidden about her charms." (Ch.4) This lady, married 7 years, has 3 kids and is thinking on the 4th. She's never seen without sewing or stitching some fabrics for her babes -- heck, she does winter knitting in the summer time.
Twice she is compared to the Madonna
And she is True Creole.
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Ch.3 "The ladies... all declared that Mr. Pontellier was the best husband in the world. Mrs. Pontellier was forced to admit that she knew of none better."
Ouch!
I mean, sending bon bons and sweets to one's wife makes one a great husband? Or just that Edna can't come up with any examples of husbands any better?! Ouch, that hurt, Kate!
-----
Someone once asked me, why do the various husbands allow Robert to flirt with their wives?
One of my favorite lines from the opening chapters: "The Creole husband is never jealous; with him the gangrene passion is one which has become dwarfed by disuse." (Ch.5)
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When Edna is a little girl she runs through the Kentucky fields, arms outraised, enjoyes the grass and tries to escape her "grim" father the stern religious nut. As remembered with Adele in Ch.5.
And she connects this memory to gazing at the endless Gulf -- in which she bathes with Robert Lebrun.
The Gulf:
From Ch.3, late at night when Edna cries by herself, "There was no sound... (but) the everlasting voice of the sea, that was not uplifted at that soft hour. It broke like a mournful lullaby upon the night."
This is only the beginning of the Gulf's Personification. The end of Ch.5 brings it up again, and again giving it a "voice": Its "sonorous murmur reached (Edna) like a loving but imperative entreaty."
First it quietly cries in the night as Edna cries, then it "calls" to Edna as she remembers and shares with -- opens up to -- Adele. And without the presence of Robert -- certainly without Leonce's presence.
All of the emotional questions, moods, frustrations, indecisions, feelings, Whatever, that Edna is shown to us with in the first 5 chapters, hit Edna in a sentecne so important in Ch.6 that it gets its own paragraph, the second of that chapter. And then spends the whole rest of the chapter, each paragraph separately, describing its facets. And concluding it it with more personification, and connection, with the Gulf.
Ch.6 is beautifully written overall, but you gotta love that the "ponderous weight of wisdom" dawning on Edna is mentioned as "perhaps more wisdom than the Holy Ghost is usually pleased to vouchsafe to any woman"!
I'm beginning chapter 14, but here is a quick question:
I still wonder about Madame Ratignolle's motivation, in chapter 8, when she asked Robert to 'do her a favor' and let Mrs. Pontellier alone.. Was she legitimately concerned for Edna? Does she want Edna for herself? Is she trying to manipulate the pair into becoming closer?
Also, my favorite sentence thus far is in chapter 7, “Who can tell what metals the gods use in forging the subtle bond which we call sympathy, which we might as well call love.” It seems to me such metal must be both hard as steel and soft as porridge, brittle as glass and malleable as clay.
At the close of chapter 11 and the open of chapter 12, when Edna unknowingly seems to abuse her husband is, how Freud may explain it, when Edna got her penis.
I'm sure the Gulf gave it to her that night, when she went out swimming on her own.
Near the end of chapter 12, when Robert explains what they will do at the Grande Terre,
"What shall we do there?"
"Climb up the hill to the old fort and look at the little wriggling gold snakes, and watch the lizards sun themselves."
She gazed away toward Grande Terre and thought she would like to be alone there with Robert, in the sun, listening to the oceans's roar and watching the slimy lizards writhe in and out among the ruins of the old fort.
combined with how Edna imagines events under the sun, first made me think Chopin wants us to see an unholy couple sitting together and looking over a precipice into hell.
But, then I was like, nah… this is a metaphor for fornication.
There hasn't been much traffic here, so i'll toss out some psychoanalysis rhetoric to tack on to what Tensor was hitting on in her posts.
In his touchstone work: Literary Theory, Terry Eagleton writes:
"Every human being has to undergo this repression of what Freud named the 'pleasure principle', but for some of us, and arguably for whole societies, the repression may become excessive and make us ill." (p. 131)
I think that it is quite appropriate to categorize Edna as a self-repressed individual as far as Freud's "pleasure principle" can be applied in The Awakening. Her relationships with Mr. P and her children, Chopan's characterization of Edna's youth and love-interests, and the obivous foil of her personality vs. the Creole personality type.
If you conceptualize what it means to live in relation to Freud's "pleasure principle" along a gradient, I would submit that over the first six chapters, Edna is set up as the extreme repressed and Robert represents extreme excess.
Over the next few chapters, ask yourself how the changes that the reader sees in these characters where they may fall along that gradient!
As ever,
ACE
Unfortunately I haven't been contributing as much as I was planning. But I'm still reading and moving along with it.
I'm going to talk a little bit about Chopin's style, because it was the first thing that struck me as I began reading.
Her style seems to take on three forms: minute details, generalized events (like for certain conversations not a line of dialogue is given), and emotional/philosophical overviews (like Chapter 6). What I find so interesting is she moves among these three styles so unpredictably. She gives details that you wouldn't expect and then Chapter 6 seems like an explosion after a rather mild conversation (although I know the conversation had plenty going on under the surface).
The feeling I get from all this is a "summer of memories". In my "summer of memories" I have strange details I remember, dialogues of which I don't remember what was spoken, but have a general idea, and an overall mood, emotion, or sense of change.
I also feel that Edna is a stranger in a strange land. Thus all the French language, her feelings of being outside the Creole sensibilities, of not quite fitting in.
Bringing all this together, one senses Edna is detached - not quite inside the setting, the story, or close to the characters. Like she's just observing a dream.
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Hey guys, sorry it's been a while, rough 2 weeks at work and now I find out I'm in deep with the IRS.
{OVERALL SPOILER ALERT -- I have no idea where everyone is in the text}
Leave Edna alone, says Adele to Robert. Good advice, heh. It seems as if Adele sees clearly that "Edna is not one of (the Creloes)" and while the other wives and husbands seem not to care about Robert, Edna may actually take him seriously. This, Adele knows, can only lead to trouble.
Of course, look at it from Robert's point of view, later in the text he says why shouldn't people take me seriously. It seems he's finally, after a decade or so of growing up flirting with married women, ready to think seriously about romance.
Or is he?!
Does he leave for Mexico because he's afraid of hurting Edna -- thus taking Adele's advice to the extreme and "leaving her alone"?
Or is he being responsible and upright to Edna's marriage with Leonce -- realizing he's getting too deeply involved with a married woman, even beginning to have "real" feelings for her?
Or is he a coward, leaving at the first sign of a "real" (not to mention scandalous) relationship.
Or still, is he tired of living in the shadow of his wealthy mom, ass-hole brother, always treated like a "youth" -- and if he's ever going to make it By himself, as Himself in this world, he's got to start following his dreams, pursuing his goals, making a living of his own. And for him, that means going to Mexico.
* Yes, that is what I believe. Robert, like Edna wants something more from life than what's here -- from what society expects. I say that Edna and Robert are more than just similar personalities, Freudian or no, but that they serve similar purpose in the book as a whole.
And when Robert returns from Mexico, perhaps as a failure, what in the world does this mean for Edna? And just wait 'til you meet Alcee!
-W. E. Ray
What do we learn from the last chapter in this book?
As ever,
ACE
From DM Tools Chatroom:
]00:00:12 * theacemu joins Main
18/02/2008 00:00:15 ‹W. E. Ray› Ah, well, I'm out for a bit-
18/02/2008 00:00:21 ‹theacemu› not yet we
18/02/2008 00:00:29 ‹theacemu› ...go post on the thread you started!
18/02/2008 00:00:36 ‹W. E. Ray› Hey, someone's here!
18/02/2008 00:00:46 ‹W. E. Ray› Oh crap
18/02/2008 00:00:51 ‹W. E. Ray› got caught
18/02/2008 00:00:57 ‹W. E. Ray› How's the Thread goin'
18/02/2008 00:01:03 ‹theacemu› lol - you have time to chat, but not time to lead your thread?
18/02/2008 00:01:07 ‹theacemu› not very well
18/02/2008 00:01:09 ‹W. E. Ray› I'm still on CH 6
18/02/2008 00:01:19 ‹theacemu› finished
18/02/2008 00:01:33 ‹W. E. Ray› What'd you think of Edna's suicide?
18/02/2008 00:01:51 ‹W. E. Ray› I guess her "wings" aren't strong enough
18/02/2008 00:01:53 ‹theacemu› acceptable ending - i'm not sure if i learned anything personally by it though...
18/02/2008 00:02:47 ‹W. E. Ray› Gotta admit, the Gulf's "calling" to Edna is great throughout the book
18/02/2008 00:02:52 ‹Pygon› sorry Ray - yes I've been through 7-8 sessions of ST with Wyvern
18/02/2008 00:03:06 ‹theacemu› great forshadowing, yes
18/02/2008 00:03:09 ‹Pygon› we just started the 4th adventure
18/02/2008 00:03:17 ‹W. E. Ray› And beautiful prose
18/02/2008 00:03:31 ‹W. E. Ray› Mdm. Reisz is a brilliant character
18/02/2008 00:03:34 ‹theacemu› the size of the chapters lends to that "poetic prose"
18/02/2008 00:03:50 ‹theacemu› i enjoyed chopin's imagery very much
18/02/2008 00:03:54 ‹W. E. Ray› tell that to Hemingway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18/02/2008 00:04:05 ‹theacemu› lol - fair enough
18/02/2008 00:04:12 ‹W. E. Ray› the chapter size thing
18/02/2008 00:04:16 ‹theacemu› i know!
18/02/2008 00:04:16 ‹W. E. Ray› lol
18/02/2008 00:04:38 ‹theacemu› i can't remember the name of it, Prelude to something...
18/02/2008 00:04:38 * Fray at Target changes his/her nickname to Fray
18/02/2008 00:04:41 ‹W. E. Ray› Do you think Adele and Reisz are opposites?
18/02/2008 00:04:58 ‹theacemu› where he rows the boat out on the lake and he thinks the mountain is chasing him...
18/02/2008 00:05:04 ‹W. E. Ray› The perfect woman vs the independent woman
18/02/2008 00:05:06 ‹theacemu› opposites?
18/02/2008 00:05:09 ‹theacemu› ah
18/02/2008 00:05:29 ‹theacemu› perfect woman?
18/02/2008 00:05:30 ‹W. E. Ray› and see how they're the 2 main influences/friends of Edna
18/02/2008 00:05:49 ‹theacemu› you mean the embodiment of the "ideal" woman?
18/02/2008 00:05:52 ‹W. E. Ray› Even early on Adele is described as a "Madonna"
18/02/2008 00:05:58 ‹theacemu› right
18/02/2008 00:06:01 ‹W. E. Ray› yes, "ideal" is much better
18/02/2008 00:06:15 ‹theacemu› in the end, how did they function in the story though?
18/02/2008 00:06:21 ‹W. E. Ray› and, of course, she dies in childbirth
18/02/2008 00:06:25 ‹theacemu›
18/02/2008 00:06:38 ‹W. E. Ray› that is a really neat question
18/02/2008 00:06:45 ‹theacemu› what is?
18/02/2008 00:06:49 ‹W. E. Ray› do they only "support" Edna?!
18/02/2008 00:07:13 ‹W. E. Ray› or is it, because Edna commits suicide, she supports those 2 opposites
18/02/2008 00:07:32 ‹W. E. Ray› "What's their purpos?"
18/02/2008 00:07:43 ‹W. E. Ray› "function"
18/02/2008 00:07:47 ‹theacemu› if you read the one post about character roles along a gradient that's how i tend to look at supporting characters in a story
18/02/2008 00:07:52 ‹theacemu› so, yes...
18/02/2008 00:08:08 ‹theacemu› you have adele and reiz set as foils
18/02/2008 00:08:10 ‹W. E. Ray› do they support Edna or does Edna support them?
18/02/2008 00:08:22 ‹theacemu› and edna explores everywhere between throughout the text
18/02/2008 00:08:25 ‹theacemu› neither
18/02/2008 00:08:35 ‹theacemu› they are for the reader!
18/02/2008 00:08:38 ‹W. E. Ray› good point
18/02/2008 00:08:49 ‹theacemu› they set the boundaries of the extent of edna's exploration
18/02/2008 00:08:54 ‹theacemu› ?
18/02/2008 00:08:55 ‹theacemu› maybe?
18/02/2008 00:08:56 ‹W. E. Ray› What'd you think of Alcee and Edna
18/02/2008 00:09:12 ‹theacemu› i dont know...
18/02/2008 00:09:15 ‹theacemu›
18/02/2008 00:09:33 ‹theacemu› before Alcee, it was quite evident that Mr P and Robert were the foils
18/02/2008 00:09:40 ‹W. E. Ray› just as a note -- "Alcee" is a name Chopin often gives to guys who a female character has an afair with
18/02/2008 00:09:49 ‹theacemu› what does he represent? i'm not quite sure...
18/02/2008 00:09:53 ‹W. E. Ray› "The Storm" is the most famous example
18/02/2008 00:09:56 ‹theacemu› ah
18/02/2008 00:10:32 ‹W. E. Ray› Leonce as a foil?!
18/02/2008 00:10:36 ‹W. E. Ray› hmmm
18/02/2008 00:10:44 ‹theacemu› leonce vs robert?
18/02/2008 00:10:54 ‹W. E. Ray› both losers
18/02/2008 00:10:58 ‹theacemu› on one hand - pillar of "proper" society
18/02/2008 00:11:02 ‹theacemu› on the other
18/02/2008 00:11:19 ‹W. E. Ray› Robert...?
18/02/2008 00:11:31 ‹W. E. Ray› he's as flimsy as Edna
18/02/2008 00:11:34 ‹theacemu› wears his heart on his sleeve (under the pretext of "properness"
18/02/2008 00:11:50 ‹theacemu› yes
18/02/2008 00:11:50 ‹W. E. Ray› Why does he go to Mexico??
18/02/2008 00:11:57 ‹W. E. Ray› And then come back?!
18/02/2008 00:12:12 ‹W. E. Ray› Acee and Victor are the strong men
18/02/2008 00:12:17 ‹W. E. Ray› "Alcee"
18/02/2008 00:12:18 ‹theacemu› i don't think we can really be sure as the reader...
18/02/2008 00:12:34 ‹W. E. Ray› ah, but we treat our opinions as facts anyway
18/02/2008 00:12:35 ‹theacemu› which brings me to another question...who is telling this story?
18/02/2008 00:12:43 ‹theacemu› from who's POV?
18/02/2008 00:12:46 ‹theacemu› chopin?
18/02/2008 00:12:51 ‹theacemu› a narrator?
18/02/2008 00:12:56 ‹W. E. Ray› 3rd person omniscient
18/02/2008 00:13:05 ‹W. E. Ray› "Eye in the sky" kinda thing
18/02/2008 00:13:23 ‹W. E. Ray› Chopin does that so we see all the characters equally
18/02/2008 00:13:42 ‹theacemu› right...it's strange how, i'd say, about 70% of the novel focuses on the action of Edna and the other 30% is "other"
18/02/2008 00:13:43 ‹W. E. Ray› thus a good argument can be made that Edna is "equal" to the other characters
18/02/2008 00:13:46 ‹theacemu› why?
18/02/2008 00:13:58 ‹theacemu› hum...
18/02/2008 00:14:00 ‹theacemu› equally?
18/02/2008 00:14:04 ‹theacemu›
18/02/2008 00:14:23 ‹W. E. Ray› well, are Adele and Mme Reisz the most important in the story?
18/02/2008 00:14:51 ‹W. E. Ray› They're the ones who represent the 2 pinnacles of Edna's "choices"
18/02/2008 00:15:05 ‹W. E. Ray› Independence or "ideal woman"
18/02/2008 00:15:28 ‹theacemu› i wouldn't presume to dub any particular character as important or not
18/02/2008 00:15:44 ‹W. E. Ray› Think of when Reisz feels Ednas shoulder blades, saying that you have to have strong wings
18/02/2008 00:15:57 ‹W. E. Ray› oh, BS, presume away!!
18/02/2008 00:16:02 ‹theacemu› hahahaha
18/02/2008 00:16:30 ‹theacemu› if i was writing a paper on this...i wouldn't focus on import, let's put it that way!
18/02/2008 00:16:56 ‹W. E. Ray› then Edna as a child, "flying" or "swimming" in the grasses of Kentucky, trying "to get away"
18/02/2008 00:17:09 ‹W. E. Ray› on whatwould you focus it?
18/02/2008 00:17:15 ‹theacemu› I'd probably run Robert thorugh a psychoanalytic rhetoric...boring...
18/02/2008 00:17:20 ‹theacemu› i dunno...
18/02/2008 00:17:34 ‹theacemu› like i said in my one post, this text just didn't speake TO me very well
18/02/2008 00:17:45 ‹theacemu› you know how some books you read you really connect with?
18/02/2008 00:17:52 ‹W. E. Ray› Say it ain't so
18/02/2008 00:17:53 ‹theacemu› not so much this one, but it was still a decent read!
18/02/2008 00:18:07 ‹W. E. Ray› gald it was a good read for you
18/02/2008 00:18:08 ‹theacemu› what's next?
18/02/2008 00:18:29 ‹W. E. Ray› Well, I'd like to get some time to finish reading it and add more post
18/02/2008 00:18:35 ‹W. E. Ray› "posts"
18/02/2008 00:18:51 ‹theacemu› i know tensor was on it
18/02/2008 00:18:59 ‹theacemu› dunno about anyone else...
18/02/2008 00:19:13 ‹W. E. Ray› And Tensor seems always to be here, where is he?
18/02/2008 00:19:22 ‹theacemu› she?
I'm watching.
Tensor be a lady.
I slummed through the first few pages on my monitor. Could have been the Paizo messageboards competing for monitor space, but it didn't grab me.
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Terribly sorry about the lack of Paizo time recently. Work load unexpectedly doubled a couple weeks ago (I had to take over a collegue's duties who unexpectedly left) and on top of that, the IRS is hitting me terribly hard this year. As such, I'm still on chapter 6!
Nonetheless, I've a good knowledge of the text and I really don't think we've yet done justice to Chopin. In an effort to revitalize the Thread I'm going to add a couple posts that I hope you find of interest, or, better still, make you want to post a response.
All apologies,
W. E. Ray
I write long posts in a text editor then cut and paste in.
ok; keep in mind the Canon is like way broken, but I am in; will run down and pick up a copy; sorry I got in so late; tea and crumpets anyone?
ok; are we doing discussions by chapter or by the whole book or how; I would like to not have any spoilers so would like to have some sort of structure; thanks for the French notes; hope a local store has the book in stock; would hate to have to order it and get behind. :)