Magus Beastblade: Familiar Spellstrike

[Thaago]

The new magus archetype from the Familiar Folio has an ability that reads:

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Familiar Spellstrike (Su)

At 11th level, whenever a beastblade's familiar successfully delivers a touch spell against a creature the magus threatens, the target provokes an attack of opportunity from the magus.

This ability replaces improved spell recall.

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What exactly constitutes "delivers a touch spell"? In particular, does a full attacking familiar with more than 1 attack, using frostbite, deliver multiple touch spells per round, thus allowing for more than 1 attack of opportunity?

If so, the class allows a decent way of getting 3+ extra attacks per round for a character with combat reflexes at level 11. And it requires no actions on the part of the character, as the familiar can even cast frostbite on itself.

Thoughts?

[LoneKnave]

Also notable: the ability where you can give the familiar a spell to cast for pool points grants them as an SLA.

Does it also count as "delivering a touch spell" if it's from an SLA?

Also, also notable, paired opportunist.

[Rhaleroad]

I would think that since it is duplicating the same action the person wouldn't get multiple AoOs. Now if the full attack is vs multiple opponents, then I could see it, but positioning that might be tough. Also frostbite only gives 1 free touch, it can be delivered with normal attacks though, activating the frostbite but not the AoO.

[claudekennilol]

Rhaleroad wrote:

I would think that since it is duplicating the same action the person wouldn't get multiple AoOs. Now if the full attack is vs multiple opponents, then I could see it, but positioning that might be tough. Also frostbite only gives 1 free touch, it can be delivered with normal attacks though, activating the frostbite but not the AoO.

It doesn't say "whenever <it> successfully delivers a touch spell via a touch attack..."

Whether I touch you to deliver shocking grasp or whether I punched you in the face, I still delivered the shocking grasp touch spell. It doesn't become a "natural attack" or an "unarmed strike" spell just because that's how I delivered it. So yeah, it very much works as Thaago is asking.

[Thaago]

LoneKnave wrote:

Also notable: the ability where you can give the familiar a spell to cast for pool points grants them as an SLA.

Does it also count as "delivering a touch spell" if it's from an SLA?

Also, also notable, paired opportunist.

For SLA's I think the answer is yes:

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Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
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Emphasis mine, but in this case it acts just like the spell.

Rhaleroad wrote:

I would think that since it is duplicating the same action the person wouldn't get multiple AoOs. Now if the full attack is vs multiple opponents, then I could see it, but positioning that might be tough. Also frostbite only gives 1 free touch, it can be delivered with normal attacks though, activating the frostbite but not the AoO.

I disagree to the first part - each different delivery of a touch spell is a new provoke. The question to me is whether or not each charge of frostbite counts as a "delivery". Until all the touches from frostbite are gone, you are considered to be holding the spell. So is the spell only "delivered" once all charges are gone, such that the spell is not held? Or is it only the first one, or all of them?

claudekennilol wrote:

Rhaleroad wrote:

I would think that since it is duplicating the same action the person wouldn't get multiple AoOs. Now if the full attack is vs multiple opponents, then I could see it, but positioning that might be tough. Also frostbite only gives 1 free touch, it can be delivered with normal attacks though, activating the frostbite but not the AoO.

It doesn't say "whenever <it> successfully delivers a touch spell via a touch attack..."

Whether I touch you to deliver shocking grasp or whether I punched you in the face, I still delivered the shocking grasp touch spell. It doesn't become a "natural attack" or an "unarmed strike" spell just because that's how I delivered it. So yeah, it very much works as Thaago is asking.

I hope so. While it only comes online at level 11, its a nice combo that, while it requires at least 1 extra feat (combat reflexes and probably improved familiar too), makes the archetype quite good.

[LoneKnave]

The reason SLAs are questionable is because Magus can't spellstrike with SLAs due to an FAQ IIRC. I haven't checked yet tho.

[claudekennilol]

LoneKnave wrote:

The reason SLAs are questionable is because Magus can't spellstrike with SLAs due to an FAQ IIRC. I haven't checked yet tho.

Because the SLA isn't being cast from a magus spell slot. The ability in question just says "whenever a familiar delivers a touch spell against an opponent". It doesn't say anything about it having to be delivering one of the magus's spells. Heck, if the familiar had caster levels it could deliver its own touch spells and still trigger the magus aoo.

[LoneKnave]

Yeah, some improved familiars actually can do that. Okay, I guess I'm convinced then.

[Shane LeRose]

Well, the beastblade went from zero to hero in no time flat.

Capstones now gained at level 11

[kestral287]

Shane LeRose wrote:

Well, the beastblade went from zero to hero in no time flat.

Capstones now gained at level 11

They're pretty awesome even if you're just using Grasp. You trade your first Arcana in for... an Arcana, and one that just became a lot more valuable. You trade in your long-duration sustainability and flexibility options (which, notably, almost every other archetype does without just fine) for boosting your action economy pretty drastically. Familiar Spellstrike is really awesome but they were never 'zero'.

[Skylancer4]

Well until the monsters realize they should kill your familiar anyways.

[AndIMustMask]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Well until the monsters realize they should kill your familiar anyways.

there's some pretty hefty familiars on the improved list, iirc. there's a very tough to kill inevitable on it, i think?

[Skylancer4]

Even with decent defenses, half a squishy PCs HP is still half of a squishy PCs HP.

If a monster is getting whacked an extra time by the PC when ever the familiar hits them. Guess who gets a very large target on their back? It is just basic survival. Familiars are still relatively weak even with the archetypes so you are playing a risky game using them in combat.

[Thaago]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Even with decent defenses, half a squishy PCs HP is still half of a squishy PCs HP.

If a monster is getting whacked an extra time by the PC when ever the familiar hits them. Guess who gets a very large target on their back? It is just basic survival. Familiars are still relatively weak even with the archetypes so you are playing a risky game using them in combat.

Its true they have low hitpoints, but their defenses are excellent. Its reasonable to get familiars up to level + 20 AC, they have the characters saves and improved evasion. It also may seem callous, but any attack against a familiar is an attack not going against a character. And while the familiar is helping the Magus quite a bit, its still not nearly as dangerous.

[Skylancer4]

My comments weren't about not doing it because it is ineffective, it was more a warning to not set your character up as a one trick pony using the familiar. Due to it is being easily taken out of the equation.