Why do summoners and eidolons have glowing runes on their forehead?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

If your wizard is dumb/arrogant enough to walk around deliberately with a "please kill me" sign above his head, that's his problem. An entirely player driven decision and not a required part of his class.

the Summoners eidolon on the other hand is THE major part of the class. Barring a handful of archtypes of course. He should not automatically be first target before combat even starts unless he's done something silly. Certainly not simply because he's playing that class.

Btw Tacticslion I apologise for my snapish post before. Was feeling a bit grumpy from lack of sleep.

Ah, but while it is a large class feature, it is not the summoner's only class feature. There are options there too. A summoner could go with their eidolon unsummoned, and then rely upon their summoning SLA.

And since there is a spell that lets you temporarily summon your eidolon, they are not necessarily sacrificing that class feature either.

This option would allow a summoner to go incognito with only a minimum amount of attention. That is a character driven decision as well.

That, and the fact that you could go invisible. That is on your spell list. That would keep you from being the center of attention. Between this spell, the above suggested play style, and a simple disguise check, it is not like it is too hard for you to protect yourself from aggro.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
Btw Tacticslion I apologise for my snapish post before. Was feeling a bit grumpy from lack of sleep.

Not a problem - seriously, we're cool. I wasn't upset by it. Honestly, it didn't seem "snapish" so much as a potentially reasonable conclusion to come to. I was just explaining why it didn't apply to me and my reasoning and thought process.

(One of the great benefits I've gained from these boards is people explaining their own inner workings. I find it fascinating getting to understand people, and so go to really silly lengths to explain myself to them.)

Scarab Sages

Tacticslion wrote:
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
Btw celestial/fiendish templates do not give extra languages so you can't communicate with those summoned ones anyway.

This is true. The templates used to make them sentient (INT 3) and thus grant them a language. It's one of those little things I'm not terribly fond of Paizo changing.

(Incidentally, the template is functionally incorrect. It states that "celestial" creatures (as a for-instance) can be summoned with planar ally, except that line of spells explicitly states "outsider" creature type which the celestial template doesn't grant.)

Beyond the ones already mentioned, Aklo and Undercommon could also be useful.

That said, after reviewing the summon monster list, there are surprisingly few that actually need languages to communicate with. I find that rather unfortunately sad. I say that as a player - part of what makes it interesting is having that eldritch knowledge, studying from ancient tomes in all sorts of languages, blah-blah-blah, etc. - instead, the spells turn into "I summon stuff and it mindlessly attacks for me." Kind of sucks.

I'm supposed to be a slick-tongued bargainer who can persuade other creatures to serve me. Instead I just kind of cast a spell.

Senko wrote:
Pretty much this I've made my decision and I'm sticking by it. Which is why I haven't posted since then. I want to point out that I have no problems with suffering the negative effects of their decisions. However there is a huge difference between sending the guard after the party who casually beat up the merchant because they're "THE PC'S" and painting a huge glowing bulls eye on one particular class with associated restrictions (disguise skill tax, always needing to cover their head) that doesn't exist on others. Especially in a world where this glowing mark isn't going to say "caster" but
...

Don't have time to read all this now (will do later) so if I've missed something I apologise. As far as roleplaying gold goes I prefer to increase rather than decrease my players options hence the comment earlier in the thread about the different eidolon types. If you as a player want to play the whole misunderstood caster option you can take the eidolon as a deal with an outsider variant rather than as a manifestation of your own power in which case you would have a mark to hide. If on the other hand you don't want to deal with that you can take the eidolon as a manifestation of your own mind in which case there are bonds visible with detect magic/true seeing etc but won't be immediately assumed to be working with demons

As for the language issue I tend to again have options. You can take the western approach of pulling a random creature to your aid and forcing it's compliance (which can end horribly if you wind up on its home plane where it isn't under your control. Alternatively you can take the eastern approach of making a deal with a specific creature or creatures in which case you always get the same ones but you need to give it something in return (ranging from a yearly sacrifice of meat for low level animals up to special favours for powerful extra planar creatures). Creatures who if you wind up on their plane may help you out because of your good working arrangement.


For the first, I already covered it. But that's okay - I make really long posts.

For the second, it sounds like another hidden tax of the same kind you don't particularly care for, though? Just from an outsider's perspective. Again: whatever works at your table is great, and I, for one, would be willing to play that way - sounds fun. But I see a marked similarity in the thing you note would cause you problems if you don't do it, and the marked forehead issue.

I'll probably put it down to different styles and tastes, which is fine. But I wanted to explain the impression it gives. :)


@lemeres A wizard could give up his higher level spells and only use his school abilities and lower spells but I wouldn't call that a sensible choice.

The summoner is built under the assumption that the eidolon is out the majority of the time, the SLAs are there as back up. Even the spells aren't more important than the eidolon, AS important but not more.

I think this thread has just about exhausted anyway.

Senko, I like that idea of having a individual relationship with your summonses. I might adopt that in my games.

Scarab Sages

Tacticslion wrote:

For the first, I already covered it. But that's okay - I make really long posts.

For the second, it sounds like another hidden tax of the same kind you don't particularly care for, though? Just from an outsider's perspective. Again: whatever works at your table is great, and I, for one, would be willing to play that way - sounds fun. But I see a marked similarity in the thing you note would cause you problems if you don't do it, and the marked forehead issue.

I'll probably put it down to different styles and tastes, which is fine. But I wanted to explain the impression it gives. :)

Hmmm I think on reading the posts some backstory would help here.

Basic World history dump
Long before the rise of man the gods made a compact that they would not interfere directly with the mortal beings decisions they would be allowed to choose their own path for good or ill. Several thousand years ago the empire of diel Ra Bon discovered the world/plane of demons and began to make deals with them. At first it was simply making sacrifices in exchange for gifts. A steer once a year, grain and goofs in exchange for greater strength, good fortune etc. Those marked by the demons bore a rune on their body (Admittedly non glowing and on a location of the demons choosing) as a sign of this. As time passed however they found a way to bring the demons physically into the world as warriors, companions, workers. It all worked marvellously even if it did start to require some human sacrifice there's plenty of countries without magical aid to raid for that. Eventually in a great rite a demon lord was summoned and that's when the demons turned on them. In 39 hours the empire was destroyed, it's people slaughtered, it's buildings cast down and the demons turned their attention to the surrounding lands. For almost two years they drove the allied armies back until a select group of mages did something never done before or since. They convinced a god to aid them. He tore through the demon armies and in a massive battle slew the demon lord before sinking into the lake of the moon to rest and heal.

Over the next few generations the surviving demons were slowly driven from the world and the group of mages became mage priests able to entreat the other gods for aid and marked by a silver circle on their foreheads. Fast forward several centuries to current era. The great empire forged by the allied empire still remembers the lesson of how close they came to being wiped out. So any arcane magic is viewed with suspicion, everyone knows that aside from the first group of priests who drew a god into the mortal world the only people to bear a mark are those who deal with a demon and this suspicion is growing because there have been a number of mysterious occurrences that the priesthood is saying is the work of demon worshippers.

So there is some basis for a mark not being demonic but unless you can convince them your really chosen by a god your not going to end well. The mark isn't just a demon mark any outsider who makes a pact with a mortal marks that mortal however the one time a god did so it was when the world was about to be overrun by demons. Demons on the other hand are often willing to make a deal because they don't have your best interests at heart.

I'm drawing from a number of books I've read when I made the world and that's the problem with summoner class. One I don't want the rune to glow, two if they're playing the variant with the eidolon as an expression of their own power rather than a deal made with an outsider it conflicts with things and I want that option available because it offers possibilities. Finally it paints a great glowing bulls eye on one specific class that the others don't have.


I totally see what you're saying, and again wish to emphasize that you're not doing it wrong or incorrectly or whatever. Sounds like a great setting!

My personal emotional responses remain, however, based on the things mentioned before and since. It is not that you're style is bad or you should feel bad - it's just that I was inspired by one idea and less so by another... which isn't a bad thing (and neither is your concept a bad thing), it's just what my reaction was. Hence, I wanted to explain it for communication purposes.

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