High Level Encounter

[Cato Taldinius]

Just for thought.

A group with an APL of 16 is to encounter a group of CR 16 monsters.

Let's say the monsters are regular, basic Goblins.

Going by the encounter chart, a CR of 16 should have a budget of 76,800 XP.

Goblins being 135 XP, that would mean so far, for CR 16, there would be 568 Goblins, correct?

Now that math is correct but the formulas for getting to the correct number of monsters for CR 16 is incorrect, because the more monsters that are added will up the CR rating.

How in the world would I figure out what the true CR rating ends up being?

Another chart sort of explains this (CR Equivilencies) but it only goes to 16 monsters = CR +8.

This encounter would have far more than 16 Goblins.

My player and I are trying to get a grasp on high level encounter design vs. small, mob type creatures- trying to find out just what a APL 16 party's CR 16 encounter with Goblins would be.

[dragonhunterq]

There comes a point where no matter how many monsters there are they won't chaallenge the players. goblins against lvl 16 players is pretty much a slaughter no matter how many you include. Somewhere around 16 monsters is probably about that point I imagine. Also consider that a lot of monsters can become unwieldy.

I'd consider either treat it as story encounter and let the players describe how they slaughter goblins by the dozen or a smaller party of elite goblins with class levels.

[Matthew Downie]

I dunno - 568 goblins might be as much of a challenge as any CR 16 enemy to a level 16 group. Give them all, say, light crossbows. Even if they can only hit on a natural 20, that's about 128 damage per round. Surprisingly close to what a CR 16 monster might do with a full attack.
Like most threats, they can be largely crippled within a round or two by any level 16 casters who know what they're doing.

[Devilkiller]

I suggest using the Troop Subtype. It is kind of like a swarm for larger creatures.

[Sauce987654321]

They probably cap the CR bonus at +8 because if you can already handle that you can probably handle a lot more.

[Sauce987654321]

Matthew Downie wrote:

I dunno - 568 goblins might be as much of a challenge as any CR 16 enemy to a level 16 group. Give them all, say, light crossbows. Even if they can only hit on a natural 20, that's about 128 damage per round. Surprisingly close to what a CR 16 monster might do with a full attack.

Like most threats, they can be largely crippled within a round or two by any level 16 casters who know what they're doing.

I disagree, mainly because any sort of damage reduction can pretty much shut down the entire encounter, even as low as 5. Just about any class can gain access to damage reduction through spells, class abilities (like a barbarian), or feats such as stalwart.

[Scott Wilhelm]

A group of 568 goblins--or any humanoids--on war patrol will not just line up with spear and shield and charge. They will have a variety of weapons: Melee, ranged, seige engines. They will use terrain. There will be higher level NPCs in their midst casting buffing spells, area spells, and battlefield-shaping spells. They would create a formation of Tower Shields to box in the party and then catapult a hail of burning balls of pitch, inflicting fire damage and Blinding the party with smoke. Then they'll send in a unit of Bugbears that all have the Scent Ability that can function inside the smoke. Just before the Bugbears push in, a Goblin Sorcerer will cast Grease on the ground under the party because the bugbears are wearing Cleats.

They'll understand how dangerous the party's high level spellcasters can be, so they will skirmish a few rounds just enough to keep the pressure on until the party's buffing spells wear out. Several of the archers will hold action until they see something that looks like spellcasting, then feather those word-reading B@^$%rds with their arrows.

[Matthew Downie]

Sauce987654321 wrote:

I disagree, mainly because any sort of damage reduction can pretty much shut down the entire encounter, even as low as 5. Just about any class can gain access to damage reduction through spells, class abilities (like a barbarian), or feats such as stalwart.

But that doesn't mean all level 16 characters will have DR 5+ active at all times. In my last two campaigns, none of the PCs had regular damage resistance at level 15.

568 goblins is trivial if you're prepared for it. It's potentially deadly if you're not. Same as most CR=APL encounters. The only difference is that a 568 goblin encounter is ridiculously cumbersome to actually play out at the table.

[wraithstrike]

The PC's will likely run out of spells and other resources, but that I dont see it as a difficult fight.

[bbangerter]

Cato Taldinius wrote:

Now that math is correct but the formulas for getting to the correct number of monsters for CR 16 is incorrect, because the more monsters that are added will up the CR rating.

What are you basing this statement on?

Per the rules, is you have a single CR 1 creature or two CR 1/2 creatures, it is a CR 1 encounter.

If you have 12 CR 1 creatures, or 1 CR 8 creature, it is a CR 8 encounter. The CR calculation rules do not take into account action economy of more vs fewer creatures.

A CR 8 creature usually does very quickly to a APL 8 party due to limited action economy. 2 CR 6 creatures (a CR 8 encounter) do better against the party on action economy, but are easier to kill each. 12 CR 1's get great action economy vs the party, but suffer lousy against the parties high AC, Saves, HP, etc.

Or in other words, CR rating is based entirely upon the total combined XP value of all monsters involved. The number of monsters involved has no bearing on any of the tables or formula. The table is merely a handy shortcut to not actually have to compute those values by hand, but they result in the same thing.