
Meager Rolmug |
I have looked for an official answer for PFS play, but come up empty. I am not looking for an opinion, but proof i can show a GM. I understand the basics of the spell, how incorpealness works and so on. I have read that some feel it moves back and forth every time the caster sends it out with a charge, which would provoke AoO's while going past enemies.

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Don't let it's name fool you, Mage Hand does not create a "magical hand" that moves things. It is nothing more than a telekinesis with a 5 lb limit, doing precisely what the spell says it does. You cannot attack it anymore than you could attack a Telekinesis spell effect.
Whoops, reading is fundamental, too early to be forum posting I guess lol.

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1. The OP is talking about spectral hand, not mage hand.
2. Unless whoever attacking the hand is doing so with force effects, it's not that much of a concern. It can not be attacked by anything short of a magical weapon. So if you're using it on a creature with claws or non-magical weapons, it's not an issue.

Dave Justus |

The hand isn't really a creature. Think of it more as a limb with really long reach. Typically, even if a monster reaches past you to attack someone, you don't get an attack of opportunity.
the only 'proof' of this that I have is that since the hand doesn't have a movement speed, clearly the normal rules of movement don't apply to it.

Meager Rolmug |
I am playing a dirge bard(gets several arcane necromancy spells added to his list). He has good HPs and AC but is still very vulnerable to grapple and his only real damage spell is chill touch. He also often is the best healer in the party...so i was thinking spectral hand would be my next conversion necromancy spell. But if it gets destroyed every 3rd time i send it out, i would be wasting a precious second level spell slot...and possible the held charge as well..as i figure some GMs will rule it that way.

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The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll..
The fact that is says "roll" and not "rolls" as well as this sentence being directly after the sentence containing said touch attack grammatically indicates that the +2 is specifically granted to just the attack done through the hand.

Meager Rolmug |
So some say yes it can provoke, some say no....sigh..it just this sort of thing that makes me avoid some abilities/spells...as it can take up too much time at the table asking the GM how he is gonna rule it to decide my next action or just end up never using them because the outcome is too indeterminent.

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A spectral hand isn't even supposed to have a piece on the board anymore than your own arm would. There is no movement involved, it's just a really long ghostly hand extending out of yourself that reaches out and touches someone and then comes back...just like a normal arm does. The only reason it has AC and HP is for those that wish to either attack it while it is hovering inactive next to you, or ready an action to attack it as it comes near them.
Additionally it does not have a full statblock and is therefore not a creature, and therefore is not subject to attacks of opportunity anymore than a vase would for falling off a shelf.

Meager Rolmug |
Those are good arguments...but sure won't convince a GM who already thinks otherwise...unless you can show me a book entry, developer comment, or FAQ that repeats your claims. I like the angle of it not being a creature, but the fact that it can be attacked opens the door to AoOs...Is there something somewhere that says only creatures + constructs can provoke?

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Well you can't fight your GM, even if I pointed out in the book exactly how he is wrong he still would be right.
However, that being said, just ask your GM if your spectral hand can be allowed to take 5ft steps or the withdraw action, reminding him civilly that all creatures can take withdraw actions and 5ft steps, even mindless ones, and since he is treating the hand as a creature it must be allowed to do those.

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It does have hit points so it can be attacked. It's also incorporeal, so that limits atack options by much.
whether it triggers AOO's is debatable, but see the incorporeal part above. It most certainly can be attacked with readied actions, but such attacks are futile if done with a non-magical weapon or claw.

Meager Rolmug |
If one reasons it doesn't provoke...those reasons could certainly be used to say a readied action would not work...depending on the reason and the readied action. The fact that it moves at a tremendus speed for example would make it pretty much impossible to hit while in transit..whatever the reason, though i suppose it could be argue the readied action is for after the hand gets to the target and is attempting to touch(which would be at the speed of a regular touch attack.

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To use my falling vase example again. You can ready an action to attack a vase that falls from a shelf, but you could not attack it with an AoO despite the fact that it is moving. AoO can only be used on combatants whereas readied actiong can be used on anything. Whether a Spectral hand is considered a combatant though is whats being debated. I still stand by "no, it is not".
Even said vase has HP and AC, but like the Spectral Hand has no attacks, move speed, creature type, statblock or anything else that would make it a creature or combatant.
And hell if you want to get real technical, even the vase is more of a combatant than the hand because at least the vase can fall on your head and do damage, the spectral hand can't make attacks of any sort.

StabintheDark |
Just to clarify, since the SH has no movement or speed noted, and it is incorporial, cant you just extend the hand though the floor and then touch the target on the foot?
Or take the round about approach and curve up and around all threat areas till you get to your intended target? Granted this would still leave the possiblity of an AoO from the target itself if the GM wanted to rule in this manner, but should solve most other conflicts.
also it would make for quite a line of travel in some situations, like one of those old Family Circus cartoons!

Oliver McShade |

Attack of Opportunity
Casting a Spell : Yes
Attack (Range) : Yes
Attack (Melee) : No
Concentrate to Maintain an Active Spell : No
Casting Spectral Hand would cause AoO
The hand itself is a Melee attack: So i do not think the hand itself would be drawing AoO, from its use.
......
Now the fuzzy part : Does the DM, consider the use of the spell to be Concentration to use the spell or does he consider the use of the spell itself to be a Range Attack. There by drawing an AoO onto the wizard himself every time he make the hand attack with the spell.... The way Spectral Hand is written... i would lean toward it being treated as a Range Attack, and your creating a AoO onto the wizard, every time he is directing the hand use at range. ... but again depend on DM.
(( got to love a spell created/written before AoO existed, now having to work in the framework of AoO use ))

Cevah |

Food for thought: FAQ:
Reach and Objects: Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an AOO? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?
The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that cannot reach you, no matter what action you are taking, even if it includes reaching into a threatened space. Although it might seem realistic to allow an attack in such a case, it would make the game far too complicated.
So, reaching far into the battle does not provoke from anyone who cannot reach you.
/cevah

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As written, unless the target has reach, the spectral hand would not provoke until after the spell is delivered, "After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers."
So, it moves up to 100+10/level, make a touch attack, then it provokes because it moves back (can't withdraw as it just attacked) to the caster.
Things of note:
While it is incorporeal, it still exists as a separate spell effect.
The spell states it moves, and has a maximum range, which is how far it can move form the caster.
It is not part of the caster, or it would not have to come back to receive the next spell charge.
Of course, this spell is going to work strangely with any touch attack spell that can deliver multiple touch attacks...

Jurkal |
The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of 22 (+8 size, +4 natural armor). Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand's AC as if it were the hand's Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.
So I would say you can hit it with magical weapons or spells but it doesn't provoke

Meager Rolmug |
These vastly differing opinions are just more proof that the issue will be ruled on very differently by different GM's. There will be plenty of times the AoO issue won't matter however, as people are fond of pointing out. My PC was mostly going to use the spell as his ranged weapon alternative, since he is a 10 str. Gnome without any ranged feats(and never will have any). Multiple touch attacks is exactly what will be happening(with chill touch)...so more wonkiness. And apparently if the PC misses with an attack the hand doesn't return to the caster per RAW so it would stay floating in front of the enemy...ready to be destroyed...but wait the caster can move the hand as he wants...but this action is not described further??? Do we than assume moving the hand requires a move action like other spells where you can move the effect around? If yes..does that mean just sending the hand out intially to attack also requires a move action??
My head is starting to hurt...surely someone has already figured this all out.

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Having no speed seems like the best proof its movement doesn't provoke, but how do i connect that to PFS - RAW proof?
That's the wrong attitude to have.
In PFS you don't prove anything, unless it's spelled out in a FAQ. (which, to my knowledge, this question isn't)
Until such time, the PFS GM will say whether it will provoke or not, on a GM by GM basis. If you're the GM you get to interpret that the way you want and you're right whatever you decide. So is another GM who might rule the other way.

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I would say that the spectral hand pretty much operates like the Hand of the Acolyte ability. so it's spring forward and snap back doesn't provoke but it can be attacked by those who specifically aim for it. i.e. a wizard who knows what's happening, and flings a magic missile or three at it.

Doomn |

For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
The spell allows you to make a melee touch attack at range. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
-Doomn

Meager Rolmug |
Meager Rolmug wrote:Having no speed seems like the best proof its movement doesn't provoke, but how do i connect that to PFS - RAW proof?That's the wrong attitude to have.
In PFS you don't prove anything, unless it's spelled out in a FAQ. (which, to my knowledge, this question isn't)
Until such time, the PFS GM will say whether it will provoke or not, on a GM by GM basis. If you're the GM you get to interpret that the way you want and you're right whatever you decide. So is another GM who might rule the other way.
That's what i'm asking for...a FAQ, a section in one of the rulebooks, or an official developer ruling...there isn't any "wrong attitude" about seeing if someone has found one of those.

Doomn |

Interesting question: A spell cast through a spectral hand cannot flank, but, if you are considered to be flanking for a melee attack (through, say, the Gang Up feat) do you get the flanking bonus on the Spectral Hand attack?
-Doomn

Gilfalas |

I have looked for an official answer for PFS play, but come up empty. I am not looking for an opinion, but proof i can show a GM. I understand the basics of the spell, how incorpealness works and so on. I have read that some feel it moves back and forth every time the caster sends it out with a charge, which would provoke AoO's while going past enemies.
Can I look at this from another angle? Why WOULD it provoke? The SRD says:
An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
They spell effect is not an enemy. It is a tool being used by the enemy like any other spell or a weapon. Why are we treating a spell effect like it is a creature in the first place?
It is a spell effect with certain special defined conditions (HP, AC, Incorporeal, does not threaten, etc.). If the spell does not say the hand provokes AoO I do not see why it would. Do we get attacks of opportunity on Spiritual Weapons or Meteors from Meteor swarm as they go past us? Or arrows or spears that happen to cross our threatened areas? No, they are not characters or creatures they are spell effects/objects.
There is no AoO because the spell effect is not an enemy/creatuire, it is an object/spell effect.

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Interesting question: A spell cast through a spectral hand cannot flank, but, if you are considered to be flanking for a melee attack (through, say, the Gang Up feat) do you get the flanking bonus on the Spectral Hand attack?
-Doomn
No. if you can't flank, you can't get the bonus for flanking either.

Meager Rolmug |
After reading others comments, the way i would rule it if i was a GM would be...
1)The "spectral hand" never provokes ANY type of AoO, since it is more like a weapon/object than a creature.
2)When the "spectral hand" misses on the caster's touch attack it hovers where it last struck out at the enemy...unless the caster uses a move action to have it go any where within the spell's range as per the spell "and moves as you desire".
3)When using spells such as chill touch + frostbite that have multiple charges the hand returns to the caster after every successful delivery. Since the hand moves VERY fast multiple touch attacks can be made as normal...as per the spell "and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack."
4)When the hand returns to the caster and hovers it occupies the same 5' square unless the caster uses a move action to have it be else where.
What do you think? Does these all seem like reasonable deductions and a good way of covering the gray areas?