Templates and Balance

[K-kun the Insane]

I'm looking at a group of characters that include a Human Ninja with a Greatsword and minor healing as well as a Human runic spellcaster, and Human Witch or Sorcerer that can heal while firing off rays and Magic Missles. Pretty standard stuff aside from figuring class combos to fit their concepts.

However, the group includes a bunch of really unusual concepts as well, including a Half-Dragon (Human) Swordsman of undecided class, a Half-Fiend (Dhampir) Magus/Ninja/Brawler, a Half-Fiend (Human or Tiefling) Ninja/Brawler, a player race inbetween Gargoyle and Harpy that would like to frontline with minor spellbuffs, and a Werepyre (?) unarmed combatant.

More than your standard adventuring party, with some powerful templates involved. If that wasn't enough, possible villains include a second Half-Fiend Dhampir (Evil Twin) and a Vampiric Succubus (Former Love Interest for 2 Characters).

The goal is to reach level 20 in an awesome tale of awesomeness, but when I look at the templates involved, it makes me worry about the characters that don't have one. At 20th level, and likely long before, the Half-Fiends, Half-Dragon, Werepyre, and Garpy will be notably more powerful than their Human companions.

How can I get the weaker Humans on par with their monstrous friends? (BTW, not an evil group[fluff reasons])

[boring7]

At level ONE the humans will be outshined.

Suggestions, in a "Throwing things at the wall to see what sticks" variety, I suppose you could add:

-One mythic tier.

-Bonus levels

-Free totally awesome cohorts.

-An artifact each, preferably the kind that either grows with the player or does something no other magic item can ever do.

-A natural 20 per level per day, that is to say, at level 3 the human character can take any 3 rolls and instead of rolling just say, "I get a 20, because I said so."

No guarantees and no refunds if any of the above are too good or nowhere near good enough.

[kestral287]

At level 20 the differences are relatively negligible.

At level 1 the non-template characters may as well not even be there.

For example: all else equal, the Half-Dragon swordsman is going to be looking at +4 to hit and +6 to damage over the ninja (assuming he's two-handing at least). That's just off the Half-Dragon's strength bonus, and says nothing of its other stat bonuses, its improved defenses, or its natural weapons. And that's enough to utterly trivialize encounters by comparison to the ninja. The only saving grace for the Human is that humanoids make for terrible Half-Dragons because they have no racial hit dice, so the Half-Dragon gets no breath weapon. If we turn the comparison to the Half-Fiends instead, he's nowhere near so lucky because that template is brutal (and one of the few that will stay relevant at every level).

Realistically, you have three simple options. The first is to give the non-template characters templates. At the simplest have them make use of stuff like Advanced (and given that Advanced is CR+1, and literally built into some of these, you might want to boost the Advanced template). The second is to nerf the templates of those that have them. Replace Half-Fiend with Fiendish, cut down the Half-Dragon's stat boosts, etc. In this case we're still talking about giving the current non-template characters a template, but a simple CR+1 will do just fine. The third is a level adjustment: those without templates start at level 3, those with templates start at level 1, but are treated as a level 3 character for experience.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I would suggest being very careful about any templates. They add a lot more power than you realize. Also if you are going to allow templates all characters should have the template, and use the same template for all. This of course does not include NPC’s especially villains.

Just because someone has a cool idea for a concept does not mean you have to let them have anything they want. If they want to be descendant from a dragon or outsider have them take the feat Eldritch Heritage or some other similar feat. There may be ways to balance the templates, but to be honest it is probably more trouble than it is worth.

In 3.0 I convinced the GM to let me come in with a half celestial druid and he total outclassed the rest of the party. 3.0 used level adjustments so I was around 3 levels lower than the rest of the party, but the other players were still totally outclassed by my character. I came in to the campaign late and killed it because the other players were not having fun anymore.

Another thing you could try doing is building a custom race for the player who want something different. Build the race yourself using the race building section. Do not allow the players to build their own race or it will not be balanced. Also use about 10 point for the race which is about the same as the standard races.

[kestral287]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Another thing you could try doing is building a custom race for the player who want something different. Build the race yourself using the race building section. Do not allow the players to build their own race or it will not be balanced. Also use about 10 point for the race which is about the same as the standard races.

This is a solid suggestion. To add to it though, if you do want to do bring the power level up a bit feel free to give more points-- but give everybody the same number to play with, which means you'll have upgraded Humans alongside the rest.

[K-kun the Insane]

If I were to use mythic tiers (no experience with them), how many tiers at 20th level would balance out with non-mythic templated characters at 20th?

[K-kun the Insane]

Hmm, if I did make races, (likely have to for the unusal idea of a gargoyle/harpy halfbreed), what would you reccomend for points? Would 20rp be a decent power boost to humans while still allowing for quasidragons and half undead fiends? If so, what are some suggestions for upgraded humans?

[Ichthyodactyl]

These kinds of games can be fun. I recall one game I played a long time ago where my DM let me start the game as a Duergar Werebear Summoner (which was a custom class in this particular game not unlike the Synthesist, except that I adopted the aspect of various deities). It was ruled, at some point, that I could give my aspect forms lycanthropy. I would have single-handedly made all of the encounters we faced negligible. That said, the Solar (yes, my DM allowed one of the characters to be a Solar) outstripped even me in sheer kill power.

The problem when you start allowing powerful monsters and templates is that it is very difficult to gauge a balance between them, it's hard to tell out of the box if one of them is going to end up stealing the limelight constantly. This goes doubly for pumping the Humans to comparable power, it will be difficult to tell where the sweet spot is, balance-wise.

[K-kun the Insane]

Huh, it's somewhat difficult to add to humans via race builder rp. Humans are not innately magical, nor are they particularly monstrous (not counting individual actions). Since only the human subtype can choose their ability increase at creation, I couldn't do anything there as the flexibility is one of their greatest strengths. I couldn't use advanced abilities as those are static and apply to the whole race. Most additions actually come from the skill/feat section.
Using an rp cap of 22, I came up with the following, though I'm not sure if it would stand up next to vampire/devil hybrids, devil/demon hybrids, vampire/werewolf hybrids, dragon/human hybrids, and gargoyle/harpy hybrids.

Standard Human costs 9rp
Multitalented costs 2rp
Flexible Bonus Feat costs 4rp
Heroic/Flexible Bonus Feat costs 4rp
Quick Reactions costs 2rp
Fearless costs 1rp

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you use the race builder for the nonstandard races simply allow the humans to pick extra abilities equal to those that the other races get. The most likely choice will be extra stats instead of magical abilities. Require them to have all the normal human traits and just add to what they have. The other races will probably not have the extra stats the templates give and have scaled down power so everything should be about equal.

Keep in mind that none of the players is going to be a normal human. The extra abilities could be from a royal bloodline or something similar. Plenty of characters in fiction are depicted as having greater than normal human abilities due to a birthright. The whole idea is to keep the characters roughly equal in power so that one player does not end up playing the spear carrier.

Don’t limit what the humans can choose let them have full access to anything the other races can pick. These abilities can represent their own individual heritage, not a racial ability. A sorcerer could have arcane focus because he is the last descendant of a sorcerer king. The fighter could have sword training because his mentor taught him more than most. Just come up with a background reason for the character to have the ability. It does not have to be racial even though you are using the race builder.

[Shiroi]

I had a group of 4 vampire templates at level 6 that stormed a castle, slaughtered 30 level 10 mixed clerics and oracles, and killed the level 20 oracle queen, took her place, turned the level 20 paladin king, and ruled the kingdom. At level 6. I had planned this to last until level 20.

Templates can do very nasty things to a campaign. It was a blast up until it was suddenly, and almost anticlimacticly, over.

If you allow templates, be extremely aware of exactly what powers those templates do. Look over every ability like your life as a DM depends on it, and know ways to make those abilities useless when you need to. The vampire template grants a mist form and a wolf form, which my guy used to be invincible in combat, unnoticeable when sneaking, and able to achieve 60 foot land speed in a blink of an eye. The fast healing made their fog form a full heal in a matter of rounds.

I could have used DM rude tricks, and had the NPC'S play against them as if they were PC's who actually knew how to kill a vampire, but that would have been a tpk with no opportunity to resist. Because if you, as a PC, offer a vampire the chance to resist anything you do to kill them, it fails. Period. So I'd have to basically tell the players what happened to them as they died horribly in a river to make that campaign last any longer.

Mythic 3+ isn't far off of this mark, but at least it includes mythic challenges to balance the heroes out somewhat, and you can choose to stop at Mythic 1 or 2 before things get out of hand.

I'd honestly say the custom race bit is your best option. Let the normal race pc's get a better starting stat array, or bonus feats, or something to keep up with the other races. And, in the worst case scenario, never be afraid to adjust WBL in favor of the weaker party members.