So i was surfing the web, when i saw an outstanding guide made by Alex Augunas. The guide talks about making encounters more challenging, and precisely i wanted to buff the Staunton Vhane encounter, yet i didn't want to make it more powerful. Veredict? i will give Vhane a manacle belt with children attached to it, and he will ready an action to kill those children if the PCs don't surrender as soon as they enter his room. It will be a great opportunity for roleplaying and to meet the true face of evil for the party. The main question have to do with the Paladin, how would he be affected by this paradox? will he break his vows somehow? please help.
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my advice, don't involve children, you'll turn off your party from the campaign (if not you as GM) no one wants to be responsible for children dying.
i can't repeat this enough don't include children!
Will the Pladin fall. Depends if you are an evil GM.
You have given the PC an impossible moral quandary if you hold him responsible for the actions of Staunton Vhane either he surrenders and dies or fights and falls. If you are reasonable and allow him to make the best of a and situation so he does not fall if he tries to resolve things even if he fails then not so much of a problem. If I was a player playing a Paladin in your campaign and fell from this situation it would definitely be the last time I played a good character in a game you ran , and probably be the last time I played in a game you ran.
As Captain Yesterday said also make sure that using children will not push your players buttons. I would think twice but would probably be willing to use them
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Dont use children at all!!!
for any reason!!! Really simple:)
You know your players best, but I'm gonna go with the good captain on this one.
These sorts of no win situations, especially with hot button elements like children, mainly feel like the DM is out to get the players. Very few players want to be set up to fail. There are exceptions, but usually they player will approach the DM and say, "I want to do this sort of player arc within this campaign...can you help set it up?" Then you clue him in that this is the scene that he begins such an arc. Otherwise, most players feel like they got treated unfairly.
Vhane is supposed to be the second real mythic fight for the players - it has enough going on in that regard.
He gets extra actions? Whoa...
Wait, he surged to make that save? Whoa...
In fact, other than Eustoyriax, he is the single most unredeemable foe of the module. The roleplaying is more of the form of villain monologue or taunting...not moral dilemmas. Let it be a combat encounter. Let them roleplay with the succubi. See Nobody'sHome thread for what he wanted to do with them. Both of them have interesting options.
If you want to make it clear that he is evil, have the room be littered with the evidence. Half eaten human bodies on his dining table, maybe a necklace of severed body parts. Have the evil happen offstage, but the evidence be present.
Despite the much appreciated comments from @Nylarthotep and @Captain Yesterday, i will continue with this task. I know it is hard, but i know my players don't have problems with this. I don't mean to set them up so negatively, i don't think it is a no win situation. I want the paladin to act accordingly and obey Staunton, that would be a win for him, so no impossible no-win scenarios. There is an evil-to-be wizard in the PC party that will certainly do something about it, probably even killing the children to get Staunton, and i'm certain he will not flinch to do it. The battle will continue then.
I am really sorry for not heeding your advice, but this is something i really wanted to do, because the paladin is my most important player, and he is up to that sort of challenges, specially since he created a character that has been a follower of Baphomet before joining the crusades as a paladin.
The question remains, in case the paladin decides to save the children and they die because of his lack of patience, will that have any incidence in his alignment or vows?
You need help alright,
psychological help
@captain yesterday, relax man this is just fantasy--it's not like if i will be doing this with real children, this is a role playing game, i am a Neutral Good person IRL but in this game i have to act as a Chaotic Evil, and this is Chaotic Evil.
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Ugh. My name has been invoked, and I've done my handoff for the day, so I *must* get involved. I think it's a Paizo rule or something.
Let's roll with your idea. The PCs open the door, and there is mighty Staunton Vhane, with a pair of kids connected to his belt. What the ****?
As a PC, my first reaction would be, "What the heck is wrong with this coward, that he uses children as a shield?"
(Not to mention the inevitable, "Where did Staunton find kids in Drezen?!? They must be demons in disguise!")
But let's move on to your question: What should the paladin do? As always, it's a question of who the paladin's god or goddess is.
- There are military gods who are fully aware that sacrifices must be made to achieve victory. If the paladin is a paladin of Iomedae or Torag, I can absolutely see the decision, "If I don't stop Staunton now, thousands more will die, so the children must suffer." The paladin attacks, keeps his powers throughout the encounter, loses them afterwards, and must perform an appropriate Atonement once Staunton is defeated. If the kids die *and* Staunton gets away, the paladin's in really really deep doo-doo, and probably is up for a pair of Raise Dead spells for the kids.
- There are pragmatic gods (Sarenrae and Abadar come to mind) where I'd expect a lot more soul-searching. "Can I surrender and reasonably expect someone else to finish the job, or by surrendering am I surrendering the world to demons?"
- Then there are nutcases... er... Erastil, where you have to die to save the kids. Family is everything and all that.
But even more importantly, what if the group surrenders? What do you plan to do with them? Staunton's not dumb. He should just kill them. The campaign ends. You're done. Is that what you're looking for?
Or are you planning on putting them in the dungeon and playing out a, "You're naked, break out of jail," campaign.
From personal experience, those NEVER go over well mid-campaign.
If not, you're setting yourself up for a situation where Staunton must necessarily act in an unrealistic way if the PCs surrender to him. That won't sit well with the roleplayers in the group.
So before you do it, consider the possibility: The PCs surrender. OK, what's next?
EDIT: And in case you're interested, my general attitude is in agreement with Cap and Nylarthotep -- if I were a player and you did this to me, I would never again play anything other than CN players in your campaigns. It's a really messed up, nonsensical thing to do in the confines of the environment in which Staunton is encountered. It reeks of, "I'm the GM, so screw logic, I just want to jerk you around a bit!"
There are MUCH better places to play mind games with the PCs, especially in Book 4. Doing it because you feel like it is really going to come across poorly in Drezen, where he shouldn't be able to find any children to start this whole thing. It just comes across as really forced, strange, and hostile on the GM's part.
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Thats b!*&&~*~ and lazy GMing to boot:(
edit: to clarify not nobodyshome, the one above it
LOL. That's OK. You can yell at me. Everyone else does. :-P
LOL great timing:-p
must've posted it as i was deleting mine, stupid f#%!ing phone takes forever with everything! (except it seems accidentally calling 911, its only too eager to do that lately:-p)
edit: and for the record i stopped playing for 17 years because my brother did this s%!& to us all the time!, so yeah bit of a pet peeve of mine, nothing personal Zilfreldel
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Well actually i introduced these Tiefling kids before in the campaign, they were starving in ruined drezen streets, they were orphans of war. They got to drezen looking for food, Staunton decided to use them as shields since the PCs beat half the place defenses and then decided to leave the keep and rest, just to come back the next day. He is afraid and will use anything to beat them. If the party don't do anything i will just end the campaign, we are playing Carrion crown and our schedule is crowded anyways, i'm not doing this to conclude negatively the adventure, i would love to continue playing it, but if they don't take good decisions that's what happens. That being said i know my players will not take a bad decision, they are smart and have easily taken down all obstacles like this before.
The paladin worships Iomedae, and thank you @nobodyshome for commenting i really appreciate it, i am reading your thread right now. I think the answer is definitely yes, and now that you mention it, i'm pretty sure the player will do what you said. I've also given the paladin this wondrous item that tells him if he could fall if he makes an action, so he's properly equipped for this ethical dilemmas.
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Well, I remember what it was like to play in my early 20's (which I'm accusing Zilfel of being, without even peeking at his profile), and it was a much more confrontational, BS-filled game.
Since this is an "advice" forum, I provided my views as best as I could, since he didn't ask me to judge his GM'ing.
Since this is an "open" forum, I added my opinion in the hopes of pointing out that there are some really awesome times to mess with the PCs in this AP, so doing it prematurely without a good context is, in my opinion, not good GM'ing.
EDIT: And of course the man himself appears! Well, I'm glad you appreciated my input. As I said, I just worry it's going to put you in a confrontational state with your players. Being old and crotchety, I find it a much better place to be to finagle them into a corner of their own making than force them into one...
well once you start doing something like that its my experience it doesn't stop, my brother did that stuff 26 years ago, and from what i hear is still doing it today (i still refuse to play with him)
however in the spirit of Nutcracker Christmas i present an alternative:
The Necklace of Lovelies a necklace with sprite and pixies in little cages, its in Sound of a Thousand Screams later when tiny t-rex isn't so emotional i can post what i can of it.
i still very much disagree with your plan and hope you strongly reconsider:-) or at least consider this alternative
Well yes, i am in my 20's and maybe i'm a little bit more chaotic than what i dare to admit. I like to do unorthodox stuff and i'm willing to take the consequences of this action. Maybe my players will just quit from ever playing with me, but i'm willing to take the gamble. Thank you for your concern anyways, i know it's good-hearted counseling from more experienced players.
Well yes, i am in my 20's and maybe i'm a little bit more chaotic than what i dare to admit. I like to do unorthodox stuff and i'm willing to take the consequences of this action. Maybe my players will just quit from ever playing with me, but i'm willing to take the gamble. Thank you for your concern anyways, i know it's good-hearted counseling from more experienced players.
Oh, you know your players won't quit -- it's just keeping in mind that a cooperative game is much more fun and sustainable in the long run.
Heck, when we were in our 20's one of our GMs allowed two players to roll up Runequest ogres as PCs. They proceeded to eat 12 other PCs over the course of 4 sessions. So we never got anywhere, never did anything, and the GM just sat there chuckling as character after character died, and the rest of us continued to play in-character, wander into town, meet the charming ogres, and get eaten.
Good fun was had by all, but it really was very pointless.
Different age groups, different expectations...
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i know it's good-hearted counseling from more experienced players.
Are you calling us old?
Dang nabbit! Damn kids today! get off my lawn!
Aura Abj.; CL 17th
Slot neck; Price 36,000 GP Weight 4 lbs
Description
This repugnant and cruel magic item consists of a chain of cold iron on which dangle six tiny cold iron cages, each of which contains a living but miniaturized pixie.
While the pixies are free to shriek and yell and cry, the item prevents them from taking any action that would directly free them from their cage and suppresses all of their supernatural and spell-like abilities.
As a swift action,the wearer of a necklace of lovelies can redirect hit point damage inflicted on him from any single attack that damages him onto one of the pixies on the necklace- doing so automatically kills the poor pixie in a tiny explosion of blood. once all the necklace's pixies are dead or released, the necklace becomes non-magical.
The magic of the necklace can also be released by breaking open one of the tiny pixie cages (hardness 10; hit points 10; break dc 20). If the cage contains a living pixie, the grateful fey quickly escapes and returns to normal size- in so doing the wash of energy allows the pixie to bestow luck upon the creature that broke that particular cage if the pixie so chooses (most pixies are grateful enough to a rescuer to automatically grant this boon). An instant after the luck is bestowed, the grateful pixie vanishes (presumably back to the area in she or he was first imprisoned in the necklace during its creation). The luck granted by this effect can be used at any point once during the next seven days as a swift action whenever a d20 is rolled- it allows the lucky soul to roll d20 and pick which result he wishes to accept.
Construction
Requirements Craft wondrous item, Imprisonment, Shield Others, 6 willing or helpless pixies; Cost 18,000 GP
well there you go, an alternative that'll still have your players saying how f#!~ed up and an evil piece of s#!* Staunton Vhane is:)
BTW check out Magnimar, City of Monuments for the second Staunton Vhane (which is evidently a popular name with the villainous types:-p)
edit: Also no hard feelings:)
Thank you once again, maybe i will ask one of my player which is 34 years old, so he gives me his opinion of the matter, if he tells me it is inappropriate i will use the flavorful necklace, which is also tempting to use xD
PD: I never intended to call you old, and if you guys felt bad about that, i apologize. I don't know if it was just joking or not, i'm really bad at jokes :(
No, no, no I was joking about it:-)
no insult felt at all! :)
And yes laraqua reached a masterful conclusion there:-)
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After reading through some advice here on the forums and from someone’s re-worked stat blocks, as well as judging my player’s play style and abilities, I decided to advance Staunton to Champion tier 4. I was worried this may be overdoing it a bit, but I really wanted the fight with Staunton to be a knock down drag out fight. Here’s what happened:
PCs infiltrated Drezen through the tower/Soltengrebbe’s Den area. They fought the thoxes and half-fiend minotaurs, but then decided to clear out that wing of the fortress first. They fought Joran Vhane and the babaus (with an extra summoned babau in there) and that fight was going in the player’s favor. Joran tried suggestion on the oracle purifier, which didn’t work, but then blinded her. The flowing monk took the offense to Joran, who fought defensively the whole time. I was really playing up Joran’s reluctance and crisis of faith. The monk was determined to kill him, though. Once the babaus were reduced to 2, I had the half-fiend minotaur bodyguards of Stauton charge into the room, breaking down the door, then the Main-Dwarf himself entered.
The closest PC was unfortunately the witch, who died beneath Staunton’s glaive. Irabeth was the next to die as Staunton crited on her – I had given him a mythic power where his crit modifier is changed, so he has a x4 modifier now and Irabeth, even at full health, just couldn’t take that kind of a hit. The flowing monk put down Joran (just to 0 hps though) and then moved to engage Staunton, but was cut down by the dwarf as well, but just to negatives. While the remaining babaus and the solitary half-fiend minotaur aiding the fight, Staunton easily cut put the oracle purifier, warpriest, and halfling rogue into negatives as well.
This was my first somewhat TPK, even though 4/5 were still alive, and I had to cancel the next week’s session to give myself time to prepare. I asked the group if everyone was still okay with continuing (I was afraid that moral might have suffered) and everyone gave me a resounding YES!
This past week we got to play out the prison seen, with two new characters joining the group (replacements for the dead witch and the player who was playing the flowing monk asked if he could have a new character) and it was one of the best role-playing sessions I’ve ever run in my GMing life. They’re now out of prison and trying to make their way back upstairs to the armory, where all their stuff is. Joran Vhane has been convinced to aid them, as he’s had a major crisis of faith and Droskar will no longer grant him spells. I’m really excited to see how that turns out!
My point – the increase that I made to Staunton Vhane made him a terrifying foe. While I still think that I did overdo the increase, I wouldn’t trade it because of the amazing role-playing opportunity we had.
My advice – Staunton is supposed to be the main villain (at least the one the characters know about) for this book and you should try to make him as villainous as possible. I echo everyone else’s comments about not involving kids and agree with NobodysHome comments about how using children as a human shield seems to be pretty cowardly for Staunton to do. He’s pretty much a supervillain, so play him like that.
I know my PCs @SerGalahad, they are powerful--i'm convinced they could beat your Staunton, specially this Paladin, his AC is ridicolous and his tactic knowledge is good, he also hits hard because Radiance and smite. The Cleric is a dual path Guardian which also has crazy AC and can AoE demons with his Channel. The wizard is the most experienced player and always finds a solution with his Wild Arcana, and finally the Slayer, which well, hides and seize opportunities. They have destroyed all the encounters so far, and believe me i've buffed them to the point they complain about it. Then i counter their complain with, did they give you that much challenge?
Ugh!
i'm getting tired of the "My party is stronger/better then the average bear" argument, we've heard this song and dance before. i can tell you how it ends *SPOILER ALERT!* somewhere between books 3-5 you'll give up because of them being too over-powered/cheesed out to the max for you to challenge effectively.
its Wrath of the Righteous! everyone is stronger then the average bear, so please stop using that argument![/*new pet peeve hatching over*]
They are powerful, yet i am not complaining nor saying i can't challenge them properly, i just want to do something new. I can put lava, powerful wind, sunder maneuvers, annoying swarms and crazy curses to raise the difficulty, i do it all the time. i've already killed that powerful paladin once xD He died against Deradnu, but he got revived by the last fragment.
Do you mean the scene with Kiranda @laraqua?
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At the end i used what @laraqua suggested yesterday, it went very well--the PCs were surprized by the treachery, but they convinced Joran to let the children go and they are helping to redeem him now.