I'm also thinking about a Weal or Woe with a Protean (an extraordinarily intelligent voidworm) and an inevitable (a weakened\broken somehow Zelekhut).
I'll try to write it down to see how the idea works in practice.
Ooo I can finally make clinging rules for Huge and bigger monsters!
If anyone can turn around a race of bishonen qlippoth, it is he!Not quite a qlippoth, but I do have an angel that should nail that aesthetic that may be appropriate for this one. :)
(they'll definitely be the type that have to lead with "Fear not!" when dealing with most humanoids)
Which reminds me...
Timitius, just how monstrous would a monster have to be? Would a seducer angel not be monstrous enough?
|
Timitius, just how monstrous would a monster have to be? Would a seducer angel not be monstrous enough?
I'd imagine telling your GM you want to play one of these creatures as your next PC.
If the GM freaks, their face drains of of all colour, or they put their head on the table and begin groaning, then it's 'monstrous' enough.
Regarding your specific example, I'd recommend checking a thesaurus for alternatives and opposites to 'seducer', since to most people, 'seduction' is a morally dubious act at best.
Generally speaking, seduction is used to describe attempts to deceive a victim into performing acts against their own interests, or to abandon their responsibilites.
There's nothing forcing celestials to be prudes, and there are plenty of canon examples, of deities and empyreal lords with sex and romance as central parts of their portfolio (Arshea and Lymneris, just to name two off the top of my head).
But their modus operandi is unlikely to include the cynical manipulation of mortals, via tugging at their baser instincts, like a degenerate succubus.
They are more likely to promote mutually beneficial relationships, that build both parties up to be the best partner to the other that they can be. Think in terms of auras of hope and courage, zones of truth, shield other/life link abilities ("I would give my life for you!").
TL:DR, consider seduction to be a parasitic, life-draining act. Love and romance to be a symbiotic, life-affirming state.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I created a seducer angel for a book (I don' know if you will ever see that out...). It basically had a "I'm going to show you how better love is if you're good!" attitude and set out to redeem evil beings with love & beauty (never forcing them).
Now, the angel I'm creating for this issue... aaaargh! It's taking shape in two versions. A mighty, powerful, dreadful biblic creature, and a lesser one with some Warpriest power that could be a suitable monstrous cohort for mid-level characters. I already sent two submissions... so which one should I write for now? Maybe I could make the lesser one and hint to the greater one in the text as a variant...
Mikaze, what's your angel? I wouldn't want to make something too similar to yours, but maybe we could "link" to each other...
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, again, while I do not want to stifle creativity here, I feel that I need to steer the open concept a little more towards my vision of what a MONSTER issue will look like.
Monsters. I guess what I was envisioning was breaking new ground on monsters that would be encountered in Golarion. Ones that GMs could drop in quite easily into existing APs or modules, or their own campaigns/adventures. While I want to say "commonly encountered", that doesn't hold true very much...some of the coolest monsters are pretty unique and uncommon, actually.
Foremost in the TYPE of creatures that typify "monsters" TO ME are:
Aberrations
Constructs
Humanoids (these are the monster races)
Magical Beasts
Monstrous Humanoids
Oozes
Plants
Undead
Vermin (but I'm looking for the monstrous size type)
Dragons? We have SOOO many dragon entries now, and dragons are kind of common and overused at this point, I'm not really seeing lots of opportunities to break new ground.
Fey? I love fey, but they honestly demand their own theme issue, don't they?
Outsiders? Devils, demons, daemons, angels, etc. This one is tricky....
Paizo has put a lot of effort into creating and defining outsiders, at least those I just listed. Wayfinder #11 was all Cheliax themed, and we introduced a lot of devils there. We already have SO MUCH on planar creatures, I don't see a lot of new ground to break here. This is kind of a theme all on it's own, isn't it, going planar, Great Beyond? Again, I think developing new material on outsiders is more in line with a Planar-themed issue, as it just gets super diluted in a MONSTER theme. And I really am not going for a focus on outsiders for this issue...I'm trying to keep it on the Material (Golarion) plane.
I see no less than 4 people now planning on some angel-based submission, though. Which makes me ask myself: Are angels really MONSTERS? In my mind, no. In most campaigns, you don't freak out and roll for initiative when an angel pops up, do you? Usually, they will be your allies, and really, it should be kind of a big deal to bump into an angel on Golarion. Perhaps people could share their own viewpoint on it though. I'm certain open to discussion on it.
Exceptions to this: I think outsiders are OK for a Weal or Woe NPC, angels vs. demons/devils, though. Or as part of an adventure/side trek. I'd even be OK with it as an angels vs. demons players campaign approach (although that's the "InNominae" RPG really), but that would be a pretty wordy endeavor. Additionally, a lesser, lower CR outsider (or native outsider) that would be more likely to frequent the Material Plane would be far more logical for inclusion in this issue, IMO.
As we keep moving forward, we will try and make our vision for this theme more clear...but it will take an active discussion from the community to help refine it!
DISCUSS!
|
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like I said, I don't want to shoot down all these great ideas, but I feel I need to definitely steer this one away from being heavily loaded towards outsiders....the discussion is leaning there right now.
I think anchoring it to Golarion itself is one way to do this.
I am thinking a weal/ woe with a centaur ranger hunting something, maybe an awakened dire wolf that went evil after being hunted by civilized society.
Contributor
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll pile onto Tim's advice and reiterate that your "go to" sources for what we're thinking about are the Monster Codex and the not-yet-released Inner Sea Monster Codex. Look at what all of these creatures have in common...in general, they all have some kind of society or culture upon which to base the design of abilities, equipment, and other stuff that is unique to them.
That's the kind of thing we're talking about.
So, the idea of how a certain monster culture uses contact with outsiders might be a useful article, but it would have to be looked at from the monsters' perspective, not from the outsiders' perspective. (Think about how the Second Darkness explained drow culture and its relationship with demon worshipping. Sure, there were articles about demons and demon lords, but when they talked about drow culture, the demonic influences were explained in context.) Seriously...get into the mindsets of these monsters. These are, for the most part, sentient beings with goals and desires.
As an example, I think it's okay for me to share that I am one of freelancers for the Inner Sea Monster Codex. (Note: This had nothing to do with our selection of the theme.) I can't tell you what monsters I or others worked on for this book, but I can tell you that I had to do research into the creatures' history in Golarion. If the creature has a real-world inspiration, I also did research on that to get an idea of what their role in the setting might be. I had to figure out why the monsters were doing the things they did, so that I could expand on it.
That's the kind of thinking we'd like to see from you folks. Our Wayfinder contributors make up an OCEAN of talent. This kind of theme is an opportunity to challenge yourselves. Embrace it.
|
Mikaze, what's your angel? I wouldn't want to make something too similar to yours, but maybe we could "link" to each other...
I guess this could feed into the discussion Timitus suggested too. I don't know if this would qualify as monstrous enough honestly because, well, my standards and preferences tend towards subverting monsterdom.
It's essentially an "aberration" angel. That is, it's roughly as alien to standard angels as aberrations are to humanoids; an angel that's more monstrous in appearance and alien in mindset than the norm while still being solidly good. This particular type would the most "calibrated" of its kind to humanoid expectations, so that they don't cause total sensory overload or mindbreakage in mortals looking upon them.(but even then some leaks through) Lots of tentacles. Lots of eyes. Lots of wonky spatial physics. Whole lot of wanting to help people while unintentionally inflicting feelings of "OH GOD I CAN SEE FOREVER". Maybe some benign body horror?
I've wanted this kind of celestial for years(check the bestiary wishlist threads!), but if this volume isn't the place for it, I think I'd rather save it. I just really want to see them or something like them made available someday.
Also had an idea about an angel that focused on tending specifically to monstrous races, but honestly it seems to me any celestial should willing to do that.
Very curious about that book with the "seducer" angel too, Bardess!
|
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will also say that another source I'm completely good with is Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary for Pathfinder. That book is full of awesome templates, and I'd love to see it extended into Wayfinder (if it is indeed OGL/Pathfinder approved...aka LEGAL).
So can we use 3PP material?
So for my personal edification, what are the larger monster societies in Golarion?
Crown of the World
>> Frost Giants (specifically, Holvirgang)
Hold of Belkze
>> Orcs
Iobaria
>> Centaurs
>> Frost Giants
Mwangi Expanse
>>Charau-ka
Oceans
>> Merfolk
>> Sahuagin (many places)
Osirion
>> Gnolls
Underdark
Nar-Voth
>>Derro
>>Duergar
>>Troglodytes
>>Vegepygmies
Sekamina
>> Drow
>> Ghouls
>> Skum
>> Svirfneblin
Orv
>> Intellect Devourers
>> Neothelids
>> Urdefhan
Varisia
>>Giant Tribes
>>Goblin Tribes
I think those are some of the major "civilized" groups (Tian Xia excepted - I know there are a lot of groups there too.
So I think I'll quit my angel like I quitted familiar stuff, and save it for a more in-theme issue (sigh). Hope my submission about favored class bonuses can still make it, even if five monster subtypes on nine are outsiders...
Let's see, what about a Spider Domain/Mystery/Spirit for jorogumo mystics? I'll try to concoct something similar.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Random thoughts on monsters on which PF hasn't said a ton;
Gargoyles and their relationship with Xoveron, the Horned Prince, the Glutton, Demon Lord of Ruin. Tying that into some variation of the ruin-fueled magic (mentioned in Heart of the Jungle?), or power gained from ruining / destroying / consuming stuff, for an Oracle Mystery or Sorcerer / Bloodrager Bloodline, could be an avenue to explore. (Gargoyle Bloodragers of such a destructive / consumptive bloodline seem like a natural fit.)
Lamia, and an exploration of the sorts of addictive techniques and charming / illusory magics (or mixing the two, and designing some addictive spells that create pleasant visions and sensations in their victims?) they use to work their machinations among desert folk.
Merfolk, and magic and mundane methods they use to thrive in an ocean filled with threats like the sahuagin. Lots of avenues for undersea adventuring options, here, some of which may already have been covered in 3P products like Kobold Press' From the Shore to the Sea. Rules elements involving coral, water, pressure, etc. could be explored.
The stages of 'evolution' (or devolution) that can lead a person (or collection of people?) to a new existence as a Gibbering Mouther, assuming that such a thing is possible. I vaguely recall Wolfgang Bauer mentioning such a Lovecraftian possibility in an old issue of Dragon magazine, and it's too cool to not explore. Perhaps this can be the result of an aberrant sorcerer pushing the envelope too far, or is a rare consequence of a bunch of people being attacked by a Chaos Beast at the same time, and collapsing into each other to become a single creature.
Salamander society. Everyone and their dog has written about the City of Brass and it's Efreeti inhabitants. How about those other denizens of the Plane of Fire, the Azer, Mephits and Salamanders, who might have cultures and 'empires' of their own in the endless conflagration? Rules elements could include mechanics for hurling globs of lava at people or ensnaring someone in a red-hot chain or scorpion whip, with siege engines throwing massive glops of molten stone at people, not to burn the largely fire resistant threats they face on the plane of fire, but to slow them down and encumber them in cooling tons of stone.
Do Phase Spiders have a society, chittering together in their webs on the ethereal plane? What is it like? Do they manufacture fine 'phase silk' trade goods and swap information gleaned from their observations of other worlds? Could members of such a 'nest' or hive hire humanoid adventurers to deal with the raids of a nearby Xill collective, offering fine 'phase silk' clothing that can be cheaply magically enhanced to function as cloaks and boots of elvenkind, or cloaks of displacement?
Hmmm. A bunch of jorogumo is called a "cult". A cult of who? Have they a defined religion? I made a little search and there IS a goddess who's apparently fit for them...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any Kaer Maga-related ideas... It's the great place where monstrous meet mundane after all.
|
|
Any Kaer Maga-related ideas... It's the great place where monstrous meet mundane after all.
A Bloodline for Naga Sorcerers (tweaked to be usable not just by Naga, but also by humanoid servants of theirs, ranging from Nagaji in the Dragon Empires to lizardfolk or merfolk / locathah or humans in the Inner Sea region).
A weak version of 'awaken dead' for Ankar-Te necromancers, allowing them to sell skeletons or zombies that retain some limited intelligence and ability to use skills (skeletal crafters! zombie guardsmen with actual combat feats!), and also opening up these dim-witted but sapient skeletons and zombies for PC use.
An expanded use of trollish 'prophecy' that allows a troll soothsayer to gain Cyclops-like 'flashes of inspiration' or 'flashes of brutality' whenever they are critically hit or below a certain percentage of hit points (as the sight of their own entrails fills them with visions of the future).
Something, something centaurs or constructs? (My creativity just ended, abruptly, as it sometimes does.)
An expanded use of trollish 'prophecy' that allows a troll soothsayer to gain Cyclops-like 'flashes of inspiration' or 'flashes of brutality' whenever they are critically hit or below a certain percentage of hit points (as the sight of their own entrails fills them with visions of the future).
I am thinking of disemboweled prophet undead troll monstrosity, but I can't decide between a regular undead monster entry and a template for trolls.
Actually the idea slowly evolves into an article with multiple undead templates. Now I need to develop it enough so it will be treated as its own article independent instead of two to four monster submissions...
What's embarrassing is that my main submission for #13 would have fit so much better for #14.
|
Contributor
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am thinking of disemboweled prophet undead troll monstrosity, but I can't decide between a regular undead monster entry and a template for trolls.Troll morgh?
"Let's see what my entrails say for you....outlook not good."
"'Try again later'? Seriously? I've already cut myself open four times today."
It will probably end being a template.
Huh, should constant foresight go into senses or defensive abilities line?
I expanded it so it ended there anyway.
My least idea is becoming a description of a less-than-probable jorogumo cult plus plot against the Witch Queen plus a NPC boss stated... Seems tasty... Ummmm
|
Tim, still hoping to hear back from you on this...
Are we allowed to use the new simple class templates for Weal or Woe, or should we be doing this old school?
As well, can we add in conversions of old monsters for the bestiary, or do they have to be 100% original and ours? Asking because I want to bring back a monster from 2nd Ed, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes regarding copyright legalities and such.
|
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
|
Tim, still hoping to hear back from you on this...
Are we allowed to use the new simple class templates for Weal or Woe, or should we be doing this old school?As well, can we add in conversions of old monsters for the bestiary, or do they have to be 100% original and ours? Asking because I want to bring back a monster from 2nd Ed, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes regarding copyright legalities and such.
Regarding the "new simple class templates" for Weal or Woe, what exactly are you referring to? I'm not sure I follow....
As for the 2nd Edition monsters, we would need to figure out if it was OGL content or not. For instance, we'd have to reject mindflayers and beholders, as they are not OGL...
James Jacobs outlines this here but for 3.5. Not sure what the deal would be with 2E, since OGL is for 3.0-3.5.
I'd say that we need to stick with the OGL, and if that means it has to be in the d20 SRD, then there is your answer.
|
|
Regarding the "new simple class templates" for Weal or Woe, what exactly are you referring to? I'm not sure I follow....
As for the 2nd Edition monsters, we would need to figure out if it was OGL content or not. For instance, we'd have to reject mindflayers and beholders, as they are not OGL...
James Jacobs outlines this here but for 3.5. Not sure what the deal would be with 2E, since OGL is for 3.0-3.5.
I'd say that we need to stick with the OGL, and if that means it has to be in the d20 SRD, then there is your answer.
The simple class templates can be seen here. They're from the Monster Codex. Give monsters class levels without actually formatting them with actual levels.
The original version of the creature is in the SRD, but not the adult relatives version. The Pathfinder version mentions how large they can get, but don't have stats. I'm referring to these. I'd like to keep the name too, if possible.
I was hoping to do the bugbear mage, but that might not be OGL. I can't find whether it is or not. They're an ogre mage version of a bugbear.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Random thoughts on monsters on which PF hasn't said a ton;
The stages of 'evolution' (or devolution) that can lead a person (or collection of people?) to a new existence as a Gibbering Mouther, assuming that such a thing is possible. I vaguely recall Wolfgang Bauer mentioning such a Lovecraftian possibility in an old issue of Dragon magazine, and it's too cool to not explore. Perhaps this can be the result of an aberrant sorcerer pushing the envelope too far, or is a rare consequence of a bunch of people being attacked by a Chaos Beast at the same time, and collapsing into each other to become a single creature.
(quote edited for revlevence to my response)
For some reason this makes me think of "I have no mouth and I must scream". I imagine such an article would be very interesting and disturbing, as is the wont of such things.
|
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
|
The simple class templates can be seen here. They're from the Monster Codex. Give monsters class levels without actually formatting them with actual levels.
These simple class templates are a "hurry up and go" method for GMs to get new monsters with class levels up and ready for a session. Because we are creating fully fleshed out NPCs, we would prefer you create them with the full rules, old school style.
|
|
The simple class templates can be seen here. They're from the Monster Codex. Give monsters class levels without actually formatting them with actual levels.These simple class templates are a "hurry up and go" method for GMs to get new monsters with class levels up and ready for a session. Because we are creating fully fleshed out NPCs, we would prefer you create them with the full rules, old school style.
This is exactly why I asked. I'd have felt stupid adding the templates and handing it in, only to find out it's not acceptable.
What's the say on these?
|
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
|
The simple class templates can be seen here. They're from the Monster Codex. Give monsters class levels without actually formatting them with actual levels.These simple class templates are a "hurry up and go" method for GMs to get new monsters with class levels up and ready for a session. Because we are creating fully fleshed out NPCs, we would prefer you create them with the full rules, old school style.This is exactly why I asked. I'd have felt stupid adding the templates and handing it in, only to find out it's not acceptable.
What's the say on these?
I'm looking at it, and then at the PRD entry for mimics in general...
"Legends and tales speak of mimics of much greater sizes, with the ability to assume the form of houses, ships, or entire dungeon complexes that they festoon with treasure (both real and false) to lure unsuspecting food within."
So, I believe you can stat up a mimic to be like the house hunter mimic, essentially a very, very large mimic. However, I'm just not sure it can be OGL if it doesn't show up in the d20SRD. It is cited in two earlier places....Dungeon magazine #19 (October 1989), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).
So, I don't think you can actually call it a "house hunter mimic". Any one who speaks OGL legal-ese, feel free to chime in.
The simple class templates can be seen here. They're from the Monster Codex. Give monsters class levels without actually formatting them with actual levels.These simple class templates are a "hurry up and go" method for GMs to get new monsters with class levels up and ready for a session. Because we are creating fully fleshed out NPCs, we would prefer you create them with the full rules, old school style.This is exactly why I asked. I'd have felt stupid adding the templates and handing it in, only to find out it's not acceptable.
What's the say on these?
I'm looking at it, and then at the PRD entry for mimics in general...
"Legends and tales speak of mimics of much greater sizes, with the ability to assume the form of houses, ships, or entire dungeon complexes that they festoon with treasure (both real and false) to lure unsuspecting food within."
So, I believe you can stat up a mimic to be like the house hunter mimic, essentially a very, very large mimic. However, I'm just not sure it can be OGL if it doesn't show up in the d20SRD. It is cited in two earlier places....Dungeon magazine #19 (October 1989), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).
So, I don't think you can actually call it a "house hunter mimic". Any one who speaks OGL legal-ese, feel free to chime in.
If it were something I was writing, I'd stay away from the classic name. I'd be very tempted to write the article as if it were a specific creature, and then stat it appropriately. I'd refer to it as a legendary "haunted" house or whatever, give it a suitable name and go from there...
|
|
So, I believe you can stat up a mimic to be like the house hunter mimic, essentially a very, very large mimic. However, I'm just not sure it can be OGL if it doesn't show up in the d20SRD. It is cited in two earlier places....Dungeon magazine #19 (October 1989), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).
So, I don't think you can actually call it a "house hunter mimic". Any one who speaks OGL legal-ese, feel free to chime in.
Yeah, I can stat them, I'm just not allowed to use the official names. Same goes for the bugbear mage. That's a little disappointing, admittedly.
Also, the Monster Codex templates can be used for regular publication, but I'm sure it'll just look better for the magazine if we do it the old fashioned way.
These simple class templates are a "hurry up and go" method for GMs to get new monsters with class levels up and ready for a session. Because we are creating fully fleshed out NPCs, we would prefer you create them with the full rules, old school style.
IMHO I value this templates more than a "hurry up and go", but as a different way to add some class features without adding (a lot) of class level, and giving only a small adjustment to the monsters' standard CR; i.e. with the Wizard Creature template I can give an high CR such as a Kraken (CR 18) access to some 7th & 6th level spells.
At least that's the spirit behind mine first submission I'm going to finish hopefully today.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Legends and tales speak of mimics of much greater sizes, with the ability to assume the form of houses, ships, or entire dungeon complexes that they festoon with treasure (both real and false) to lure unsuspecting food within."
Dang it, now I want a pirate crew sailing on a mimic pirate ship.
Dread Pirate Pillbug {pats railing} OK Milano, we'll act like we're going for a point-blank broadside, but at the last minute, bite the bow and concentrate your slams on their cannons.
Edit: Oooo, mimic starjammer!
|
|
"Legends and tales speak of mimics of much greater sizes, with the ability to assume the form of houses, ships, or entire dungeon complexes that they festoon with treasure (both real and false) to lure unsuspecting food within."Dang it, now I want a pirate crew sailing on a mimic pirate ship.
Dread Pirate Pillbug {pats railing} OK Milano, we'll act like we're going for a point-blank broadside, but at the last minute, bite the bow and concentrate your slams on their cannons.
Edit: Oooo, mimic starjammer!
They were called the Space Mimic. Here is a 3.0 conversion.
|
|
They were called the Space Mimic. Here is a 3.0 conversion.
Just beware the dreaded *Planet* Mimic...
Demiplane Mimics (or, at least, sentient demiplanes that attempted to digest anything that entered them, and sometimes even attacked and absorbed smaller demiplanes) probably already had a writeup back in the Manual of the Planes or something. :)
Ugh. Disemboweled prophet template and sample statblock grew to 748 words already. And I need to add at least two or three sentences of description...