Why would you think that?
It's a big guy with a big sword and weird fashion sense. Not the first one they've met. There's a good chance they've got one in the party.
It's a medium guy able to wield a greatsword for larger creatures. It's clearly had creepy surgery performed on it. Fortunately, our fighter isn't the type you're suggesting. ^^
Optimizing opponents against the party is a pretty bad thing to do. It invalidates the players' choices.
Normally i'd agree, however in this case it's designed as a slow moving boogyman (boogy guard in this case), to set atmosphere. Along with its poor tactics of only attacking what it can sense and saying stealth checks can be used to avoid him, i'd say it survival has good chances, unless you assault it directly.
How about this then as you walk along you meet a bard singing "The man behind me is too strong for you, he can kill you all. He's 3.5 times your total party level and he's designed to fight you." Then they see a guy in armour come round the bend.
Lol, would be excellently silly.
Ah, no not like an iconic barbarian.
Imagine the buster sword from Cloud in the old FF7, just a step or 2 bigger.
As for surgery, i can't imagine eyes sewn shut and lots of barbed wire stripped tight into your flesh as being a fashion statement.
You would if you didn't have your regular gear.
People don't go into an official public institution for the deranged, armed to the teeth. Regulations, only arms are held by the security staff.
Takes their stuff like Gaston!
Nobody kills an APL +10 monster like Gaston!
Nobody does pushups like Gaston!
I wouldn't consult the dices in such situations (no Knowledge Check).
Instead I would try to explain the danger of this enemy by describing his actions, play with the player fear of the unknown and roleplay the enemy correct and show another route to the player. Also don't name it! If they don't know what it is, it's much more frighten. :)
E.g.: Big Bad Dragon - players shouldn't fight him, but get on a journey to get a magic spear which can kill him.
First I wouldn't show the dragon directly, I would tell of "something big flew over your had, the sun was darkend for some moments, after the sun warms your body again, the trees are still shaking from the storm which follows the creature."
Next show the remains of the enemies attacks:
"Near the road you see the remains of a large cart smashed against the mountains wall, like a toy."
"You get into town, you see severals destroyed houses only a few of them have still some roof. This will be a cold night for the town. The townhall, or at least what should be the townhall is still smoldering."
Next make the first hints for the "alternative route":
"Next to the remains of a small house sits an old man murmeling somthing, as you come close he frozes liek a statue and his eye gaze onto [Player name]: "And from the dark mountains comes the fiery death. No mortal soul could break his armor, no spell pass his will. Only the spark of a frozen heart will destroy it" after this the old man breaks together and didn't remember anything of it"
Next show that resistance is futile:
"You helped the towns people to cure the wounded and rebuild some roofs. At dawn a small group of wounded hunters get back to town. You hear whispers "they were 50 man, 50 of our finest warriors" ".. and the wizard, where is the wizard?"
The groups leader, a wounded battle-harded soldier spotted you and turn towards you "Where were you when the beast attacks? Where???? (he got a break down during it) We followed him into the moutnains, 50 man, armed and ready to fight... but our bolts simply bounce of his armor.. even Hasks magic bolts missed the creature.. he never missed one shot before... Where is Hask.. hi didn't make it... 50 man, only 5 still alive... Where were you????"
I think you see what I mean, setting the scene, make the enemy show bigger then he is and give a possible solution (and remove the imminent danger (if there is an imminent danger, players will fight to protect or loot (most are "good" in their hearth)))
Simple. Don't let them try it.
Don't call for initiative.
Don't bust out the battlemat and minis.
Don't touch the dice.
It's not a combat encounter, so don't frame it as one.
Right, this is the way.
Tell them!
This scene is not meant to be a combat, but rather too..............
I've had players roll Knowledge checks around 30ish, and when I tell them the name I add "With that check you get....one question."
That is kind of neat. I've never thought of putting the control in the hands of the players. Instead, I always struggle with "what should I tell them?" It feels kind of wrong to pick what I want them to know, so I usually give out a little more info than RAW. But by letting the players ask...
Yoink!
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That is kind of neat. I've never thought of putting the control in the hands of the players. Instead, I always struggle with "what should I tell them?" It feels kind of wrong to pick what I want them to know, so I usually give out a little more info than RAW. But by letting the players ask...
That actually wasn't the gist of my post. If you roll a 35 on your Knowledge check, and get one question, then 35 only beat the DC by less than 5. DC = 5/10/15 plus CR. You should now be thinking "This creature has a CR greater than 35 minus either 6 or 11 or 16. So ranging from 19 to 29.
And players don't seem to pick up on this.
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Right, this is the way.Simple. Don't let them try it.
Don't call for initiative.
Don't bust out the battlemat and minis.
Don't touch the dice.
It's not a combat encounter, so don't frame it as one.
I have played with DM who do things that way, and it is way to much DM fiat and railroad for my tastes, so definitely a case of YMMV.
But you see- they didnt really "encounter" that Chimera. It's just a set piece. It's liek a cut scene between actual play in a video game.
No it isn't. It's an encounter that the PCs have the power to observe with relative safety or escalate as they choose. And that's just as much an encounter as walking into a dungeon chamber and surprising a group of orcs playing poker, walking down the road and seeing a merchant, or being ambushed by bandits. The chimera and the party are in the same place at the same time and may or may not come to blows - just like with any other encounter.
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But that means you can only use too powerful opponents in certain circumstances: They have to be overwhelmingly powerful and need a clear opportunity to show that power.Power is relative. A single ogre can be handled even by APL 1 party. A band of 15 ogres could not.True, but not really relevant.
3* Ogres would be more than the APL 1 party could handle, but they wouldn't be so overwhelming they can casually demonstrate they're out of reach.
*Exact number irrelevant. Sufficient that there exists a number such that the statement is true.
What I am trying to say is, that you don't really need extra powerful opponents solo opponents in some cases. A party could try to lure few ogres away and handle them alone while avoiding the rest of the band which is busy ransacking. Even corner cases like putting single powerful creature against party can work by putting extra NPC help for example which lowers the encounter value drastically. It would require careful encounter planning though.
The power is there. It's just reversed completely.
TL;DR ;P
But..I did have some thoughts in a similar manner to the title topic and came up with a dastardly display of how game rules stop working at all and the encounter becomming mostly a storytelling shown of getting thrown around..with a clear comment that "if i made this thing roll damage instead id have to think how to introduce a new party into the campaign very fast"
That was with Carrion crown in mind in case my party started getting too close to some CR5+ incorporeals before getting past their own level 1s.
Of course if you can pick an encounter you can just take one with obvious resistances to most of what the party has at the moment.
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Which is different than: "I'm trying to make it clear this encounter is too powerful for you."
You're correct that powerful groups can sometimes be handled by splitting them up, though it's often risky. (In this case, for example, A single ogre would be a hard encounter. If you lure two away it's above Epic. Even one at a time, you're not going to make it through 15 and if they all come after you, you'll die if you can't escape.)
You're posing an entirely different problem than the thing I was objecting to. From "How to warn the players this isn't a combat encounter for them" to "How to handle combat encounters that appear to be beyond you."
You are right. I am going way of to another set of problems but in any case, these encounters should always have some "catch" in them or alternative escape option. Cinematics can often be misunderstood.
First, you should make it clear before the campaign starts that the fights won't all be tailor made for the party. They may run into something that WILL kill them if they fight it head on.
This.
Also, on a similar note, do NOT make unbeatable foes interfere with the main quest. There is a world of difference between stumbling across a random encounter on your way to fight the Orc king and save the princess from being sacrificed that is just WAY too big and dangerous to fight and the Orc king himself being too big to fight. We've never had too much trouble running away from side fights.
However, if the whole quest is to rescue the princess and stop the orc king... and there is no way to do it... THOSE are the times we do not run. If we flee, 1) The gal dies. 2)Evil wins. 3) The quest fails.
My good guys are in the vein of 'save the princess at all costs or die trying.' As heroes, there will be times that 'running' results in worse consequences than 'dying'.
As a DM you have to make sure to present the situation with that in mind. Let the players know that 1) there are fights that are too powerful.... and 2) it's 'OK' to run away.
Ah, no not like an iconic barbarian.
Imagine the buster sword from Cloud in the old FF7, just a step or 2 bigger.As for surgery, i can't imagine eyes sewn shut and lots of barbed wire stripped tight into your flesh as being a fashion statement.
You would if you didn't have your regular gear.
People don't go into an official public institution for the deranged, armed to the teeth. Regulations, only arms are held by the security staff.Amiri, the PF barbarian Iconic uses a Large greatsword.
As I said, the rest was not clear from the original statement.
No. You are incorrect. Amiri, the Pathfinder Iconic Barbarian, uses a large sized bastard sword.
She can do this because she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), allowing her to treat it as a one-handed weapon, which in turn allows her to use a size larger one as a two-handed weapon (at a -2 penalty to attack rolls).