Goblin Squad Member
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I think the current perceived uselessness of coins has two sources:
1) The EE character wipe.
2) The cumbersome implementation of the Auction Houses.
The EE character wipe reduced the value of coins during Alpha because no matter how great a fortune we amassed, it would all disappear at EE. There's no incentive to get rich if you can't stay rich.
The poorly-implemented Auction Houses reduced the value of coins because direct barter was less frustrating than using the Auction Houses. There's no incentive to get rich if trade is overwhelmingly conducted through barter.
Once EE begins this week, Problem 1) will go away. Coins will be permanent once earned. Wealth won't face a built-in deadline any more.
Problem 2) still needs to be fixed. Goods that have zero units for sale in a given Auction House should be hidden from shoppers at that Auction House. (This can be revisited when the global price display comes online.) Two-day auctions should be immediately replaced with seven-day auctions. (Adjustable-length auctions can be added to the game when the code is ready; they aren't crucial for Day One.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kero, I don't think it's possible to create a technological solution to this problem. The only realistic solution is banning accounts.
Much like Ryan has always said he would have to rely on the community to set appropriate standards of behavior, I expect this problem will ultimately depend on whether or not there are significant bans for folks engaging in this type of behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kero, I don't think it's possible to create a technological solution to this problem.Maybe not. But removing the desired loot from easily bot-farmable targets removes any and all incentive to bot-farm those. If you still want the loot present in vast quantities, at least put it somewhere where getting it requires actual gameplay. If bot-farming is made the best and most effective way to get these resources, you disadvantage everyone who doesn't do it. Talk about wrong incentives...
Goblins are core to the world. The simplest answer I can see is to make a separate subtype of goblin (sub-urban) which could use all the same artwork but a different loot table.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kero, I don't think it's possible to create a technological solution to this problem. The only realistic solution is banning accounts.
Much like Ryan has always said he would have to rely on the community to set appropriate standards of behavior, I expect this problem will ultimately depend on whether or not there are significant bans for folks engaging in this type of behavior.
Player looting will make this practice obsolete. If I were to spot on obvious bot, I'd come back in about an hour, kill it, and loot the spoils. The rep loss will be worth the fun of looting and the tears of the botter, having wasted all that time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There has been an interesting thread about Purposefully destabilizing the Economy in May 2013 with several contributions from developers.
There is a reason I brought up the term of service clause as one option. I don't hope nerfing is necessary. You disadvantage a decent amount of innocent players (new players who just kill some 10 or 20 goblins and will be very happy to get a few coins, maybe a single recipe or some armor) to prevent a very small minority botting and misusing it.
I'm in 100% agreement with Kero that if this becomes a problem or gets widespread, then it needs to be solved. I hope this thread helped to show the problem and will rather limit it and not see lots of people copying it and in that way advertise it.
Where I disagree is that I hope enough players can play responsible enough that GW doesn't has to act. But yes - changing the loot table is better as doing nothing.
But from the thread I linked to I expect GW not to sit idle. They might watch before doing something - and that is fine with me.
Eidt: oops - changed 2015 to 2013 - was already in the future
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Goblin Squad Member
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... at least put it somewhere where getting it requires actual gameplay.
This is the part that isn't solvable. You might be able to drive the botters away from the starter towns, but they'll just set up somewhere else. In the meantime, you've significantly degraded the experience of honest players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there's an overemphasis on how important the 'Tier 1 economy' should be during the first month of play.
I don't think it should matter if it's the first few weeks or a year from now. Tier 1 recipes and crafting should be easy whether a person wants to stick around a starter town or head into the wild. We'll outgrow this after a month, and the only 'benefit' of the starter goblins for a Tier 2 character would be diversifying into other class roles through easily targeted achievements and not for the gold/gear/recipes.
The 'race' to be the first person to craft a steel greatsword +2 or whatever is really insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I would hate to see a major change to the build we've been playing for months end up causing some other problem. Remember the crafting tweak? How would it feel to have the same issue happen during the first few weeks of EE. Seriously, is it worth the possibility that no recipes drop at all?
There are not that many areas to fight starter goblins. Just wait until the game starts and you'll see people fighting over them. It's a good place to socialize starting out too, for better or worse. Leave it as is for now, please.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the meantime, you've significantly degraded the experience of honest players.
I dunno. I've played a crafter character throughout the Alphas, generally spending minimal amounts on combat skills. I've killed lots of Lv1 mobs and found tons of recipes wandering the map. I think the play experience of grinding mobs on the perimeter of the starter town isn't significantly better than searching them out a few hexes away.
If the purpose of the goblins around the starter towns is to complete the starter quests, then there's no particular reason that those mobs can't be a special Lv1 goblin with junk drops. I'd go so far as to recommend that they drop *mostly* starter gear, and even then maybe only a small fraction of total kills. No recipes, minimal coin. Starter gear means periodic heavy drops, so the character has to cycle back to the bank frequently. I think that changing the loot tables for starter town goblins would not significantly degrade the experience of honest players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would have to agree. Those that choose not to exploit this with botting techniques will have to work much harder (relative to botters) to achieve the same rewards.
Unless GW is willing to watch these 4 starter areas or act swiftly when informed by us about it, the loot tables should be adjusted.
T1 is much more important than a month's relevence for the many players that will have few characters and like growing them sideways (branching out), rather than straight up.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Inflation is a symptom of too much money and too little demand.
Inflation is not caused by injecting a lot of currency. It is caused by too mich currency and too little demand.
What you are seeing now is that +0 starter items will have very low prices (lots of supply, lots of demand, lots of loose change). That is intentional because we want to train players to buy what they need, not grind for it.
Dutch Auctions mean that the price of what you want becomes less the longer you wait. So there is a built-in bias toward deflation. Once +1 and higher items come to market, we will be able to see what the market prices are, and hat is when we can fiddle with the coin faucet to control inflationary pressures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think that farming will have a long term impact.
If I see someone doing it and it annoys me enough, I can log on with an alt with no gear, go out and lure in a large mob of other starter goblins (or whatever else is around), run to the bot farmer and stop next to them. My alt dies, so does the bot farmer - I go back to the husk and take what interests me.
It is not nice, and if the player is there, could be considered griefing, but it would likely be effective in discouraging bot farming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Except for the little detail that monster AI doesn't work that way in PFO. The monsters will focus on you until you are dead or they decide they can't harm you enough, and then they return to their start location. They don't turn and attack someone else who isn't attacking them. And the bot - if set up like Kero's mouse bot - doesn't attack mobs you drag in.
out of curiosity, to those who are leaving their vulnerable bodies where pvpers can reach them, how are you planning to keep others from farming you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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out of curiosity, to those who are leaving their vulnerable bodies where pvpers can reach them, how are you planning to keep others from farming you?
At the beginning of Early Enrollment, farming AFKers won't gain the PVPers very much. Loot-able PC corpses (which will be called husks) don't exist yet. Killing AFKers can award Player Killer Achievement Points, but that's about it.
Later, when husks and player looting enter the game, the AFKers will have much more to worry about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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out of curiosity, to those who are leaving their vulnerable bodies where pvpers can reach them, how are you planning to keep others from farming you?At the beginning of Early Enrollment, farming AFKers won't gain the PVPers very much. Loot-able PC corpses (which will be called husks) don't exist yet. Killing AFKers can award Player Killer Achievement Points, but that's about it.
Later, when husks and player looting enter the game, the AFKers will have much more to worry about.
As of now, and the foreseeable future (I'd say months), I don't see player husk looting as high on the priority list. I'd say it is a shame that it is not part of MVP since PFO was billed as a PVP oriented game.
As for the Player Killer Achievement, that has no benefit to it and is not an offset to the Reputation loss for killing Bots.
For combat focused characters, there is no reason whatsoever to leave the area surrounding the starter towns. Spend the first couple of weeks grinding Goblins for Martial / Subterfuge Achievements with multiple weapon types. Example:
500 kills each (Shortbow, Short Blade, Longbow, Longsword) should give enough achievement points to get to Rogue / Fighter 8.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some will go far for resources, others for the thrill of combat and the honor of victory. When looting comes in, that'll be icing on the cake. It's impressive to watch some of the people who pvp'd regularly through alpha and see how far they've progressed up the learning curve of managing conditions, attacks, and utilities. They'll keep pvping to maintain and expand that experience for no other reason than fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Player looting will make this practice obsolete. If I were to spot on obvious bot, I'd come back in about an hour, kill it, and loot the spoils. The rep loss will be worth the fun of looting and the tears of the botter, having wasted all that time.
Unless your settlement has an arrangement to use this exploit to create a goods factory willing to be murdered and looted. Good money, easy to make. this would be the suicide ganker in a Catalyst in EVE. Cheap to make, create loads of low level goods, be willing to die. something any noob could do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Player looting will make this practice obsolete. If I were to spot on obvious bot, I'd come back in about an hour, kill it, and loot the spoils. The rep loss will be worth the fun of looting and the tears of the botter, having wasted all that time.Unless your settlement has an arrangement to use this exploit to create a goods factory willing to be murdered and looted. Good money, easy to make. this would be the suicide ganker in a Catalyst in EVE. Cheap to make, create loads of low level goods, be willing to die. something any noob could do.
I like the idea of the botters being seen as goods factories. Someone could make a fortune renting out the bot placement locations and protecting them from raiders. Or demanding protection money. Same thing.
CEO
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As of now, and the foreseeable future (I'd say months), I don't see player husk looting as high on the priority list. I'd say it is a shame that it is not part of MVP since PFO was billed as a PVP oriented game.
And you would be wrong. Way wrong. I'd say weeks rather than months. Since War of the Towers isn't in at launch, it didn't become important to be in at launch, but once there is a way to do meaningful PVP, it becomes a super important piece.
But words are just that. Words. I guess we will have to back that up with actions! :)
-Lisa
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some will go far for resources, others for the thrill of combat and the honor of victory. When looting comes in, that'll be icing on the cake. It's impressive to watch some of the people who pvp'd regularly through alpha and see how far they've progressed up the learning curve of managing conditions, attacks, and utilities. They'll keep pvping to maintain and expand that experience for no other reason than fun.
All well and good, and true in itself. However, whacking AFK bots has limited value as skill practice, little thrill of combat, and minimal honor of victory. PVPers will continue to PVP, but I think after the initial buzz of killing AFK bots wears off, the PVPers will prefer to kill people who are at their keyboards, rather than away from them.
Even EVE-style tear collection works better when the target is at their keyboard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whacking AFK bots - once Player Looting is in - will be an extremely efficient way to farm for resources.
Can you imagine that the UNC uses this an initiation rite into their banditry brotherhood? "See that AKF Bot over there?; use the skills we taught you and kill him, loot his corpse, state your kill over the hex chat. Then you officially become one of us." :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Killing bot I see more as a houskeeping act and perhaps something for new PvP, that is actually something that gets forgotten in most of our discussions, there will probably be a stream of new players that will do the stuff the oldies have tired of.
And now I just have ha urge to sit in a cave, painted in garish colours, chanting:
husk, husk, husk ... husk, husk, husk ....
husk, husk, husk ... husk, husk, husk ....
husk, husk, husk ... husk, husk, husk ....
husk, husk, husk ... husk, husk, husk ....
husk, husk, husk ... husk, husk, husk ....
And then throwing strange powder in the fire, yelling:
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Goblin Squad Member
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As of now, and the foreseeable future (I'd say months), I don't see player husk looting as high on the priority list. I'd say it is a shame that it is not part of MVP since PFO was billed as a PVP oriented game.And you would be wrong. Way wrong. I'd say weeks rather than months. Since War of the Towers isn't in at launch, it didn't become important to be in at launch, but once there is a way to do meaningful PVP, it becomes a super important piece.
But words are just that. Words. I guess we will have to back that up with actions! :)
-Lisa
Indeed, and since WoT was projected to about week 3, you may very well be correct.
BTW, I think player husk looting gives meaning to PVP, with or without the War of Towers. It will finally provide the risk vs. reward that many have been waiting for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you imagine that the UNC uses this an initiation rite into their banditry brotherhood? "See that AKF Bot over there?; use the skills we taught you and kill him, loot his corpse, state your kill over the hex chat. Then you officially become one of us." :)
Actually, our initiation is more likely to be, "You see that guy standing by the crafting building (AFK)? Kill him and get out before the guards can catch you." "If you manage to loot him as well, you will get an extra share."
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Goblin Squad Member
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...PVPers will continue to PVP, but I think after the initial buzz of killing AFK bots wears off, the PVPers will prefer to kill people who are at their keyboards, rather than away from them...
Yes. To be more specific, I was referring to those who kept playing and actively PvPing during Alpha not only to test the system, but to increase their skill in this particular system,and primarily because they enjoy it. For example, I dont think anyone who has fought with or against Haagen can miss feeling his enjoyment radiate across the Internet :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. And if so the Brighthaven Special Forces initiation will probably include "Pretend to be AFK by a crafting station near the UNC, get a chump to attack you, then kill them and take their stuff.
Brighthaven?? Did you leave Phaeros? besides, I thought we won't have PC settlements until after the Great catastrophe, has that too changed?
But, hey if you can set a trap, all the power to you. WE are prepared to take losses, and celebrate our victories. That is all part of our fun.
In a greater purpose, the UNC has always been about creating a certain atmosphere to the River Kingdoms. We want it to seem to be a harsh and dangerous place, and one you will not tread lightly or unwarily in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...besides, I thought we won't have PC settlements until after the Great catastrophe, has that too changed???? All the PC settlements have been in place since the full EE map unrolled. Either that, or we're using "PC Settlements" differently.
I wrote that post before the start of EE, and so the question remained. Now after EE, I discovered that the PC settlements are in fact in, before the cataclysm.
The term "Proto Settlement" was never defined, or I may have missed it, but I was not under the impression that they would be capable of functioning as fully as they do. That is a good thing.
"Heh. Now I'm going to have to get an attack with a knockback and go looking for Doc. ;)"I may have to branch out from Rathglen then! :D
Seriously though. I work from home, I have 3 computers on my desk right here, and will often have a game up and running on one. Often times, I was "afk" farming in PFO while not really *away* from my desk, but just glancing over every 15 minutes or so to make sure my health wasn't too low.
I suppose I can just glance over to look at chat to see if somebody is messing with my char.
What is the solution now?
What if a player is actually farming in the same spot for 4-6 hour stretches, and is not actually "afk"?
Your only recourse then is to trim the loot table for starter goblins of anything useful past a certain level of advancement, or remove them entirely. But consider this, you can remove recipes from goblins and I will still farm them for Goblinoid Armor and Weapon scraps to use in crafting.
The solution is requiring a more sophisticated targeting system. As much as auto target is good, I wonder if it's not really good for a pvp game. A vast autotarget to where you can just auto attack and target whatever comes on the screen (after it hits you) is broken.
IMO there's no reason that you should be able to kill enemies by doing cycle target 1 1 1 1 forever. It's easier, sure. I would hope in the end that's not there tho.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Currently, if you are looking for Tier 1 recipes, it is much more efficient to be grinding starter-goblins, then it is to go out in the wilds and kill bandits, wolves and goblincamps.
+1, +2 and +3, they all drop from the starter goblins. Not sure if this was intended to kickstart the economy, but I think the incentive to go out and kill camps in the wild would be bigger if the chance on recipes would be bigger on them then on the startergobbies.
I got a single recipe in an hour of bandit camps, while I get at least 6-8 recipes from killing gobbies nonstop in that time.
It is more fun to kill Camps in the wilds since they require at least some evasion and planning, and if you go gathering nodes you will do that anyway. Just seems that the yield in recipes is rather low compared to doing starter gobbies.
I realize the startergobbies area a temp thing, just thought I'd mention it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am surprised people are so stressed by an overabundance of crap gear that no sane person will ever try and craft when +1 equivalents take about 1 day more training.
I am also curious how coin is supposed t get into the economy at all if nothing drops it. If you eliminate coin drops you will need some sort of RMT for coin deal.