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I've been doing some research into making a Skald, and it seems this question keeps coming up (see HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE, with no consensus).
Can Skalds with the Extra Rage Power feat grant that Rage Power to their allies during a Raging Song?
People disagree whether or not this feat counts as "another source".
If the skald has rage powers from another source, he (but not his allies) can use those rage powers during an inspired rage.
I searched this forum and the Skald Playtest Discussion to no avail. If anyone has seen this answered elsewhere, quotes or links would be appreciated.
It's not a definitive, straightforward decree, but the pregenerated Skald character for PFS has an extra rage power feat and can't share the power thereby gained via inspired rage.
It seems definitive for PFS (though, not having played in PFS, I'm admittedly unaware of what passes for definitive in that system), but that is far from definitive in home games
The poets cloak is helpful if you're just looking for one more lower level rage power to share
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the pregenerated Skald character for PFS has an extra rage power feat and can't share the power thereby gained via inspired rage
Thank you for that. It's good to know.
There are some errors with the PFS pregens (Lem has a potion of a personal spell, Ezren has a feat he shouldn't have, etc), so I wouldn't say it's "definitive", but it certainly helps.
I've always taken the stance that 'From another source' always means the source of the other ability is a class separate from the Skald. An example would be a multiclassed Skald/Barbarian. The Barbarian rage powers (gained through barbarian class levels) would count as 'from another source'.
For the 'Extra Rage Power' feat, it is granting you additional rage powers based on the 'class ability' that you use to qualify for the feat. Ex: Skald 'rage powers' vs Barbarian 'rage powers'. A single class Skald taking the feat is using their Rage Power class ability (not 'from another source') to qualify for the feat. Therefor, the extra rage power is from the same 'source' as all its other rage powers.
So, my answer to: Can Skalds with the Extra Rage Power feat grant that Rage Power to their allies during a Raging Song?
Absolutely.
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I've always taken the stance that 'From another source' always means the source of the other ability is a class separate from the Skald. An example would be a multiclassed Skald/Barbarian. The Barbarian rage powers (gained through barbarian class levels) would count as 'from another source'.
For the 'Extra Rage Power' feat, it is granting you additional rage powers based on the 'class ability' that you use to qualify for the feat. Ex: Skald 'rage powers' vs Barbarian 'rage powers'. A single class Skald taking the feat is using their Rage Power class ability (not 'from another source') to qualify for the feat. Therefor, the extra rage power is from the same 'source' as all its other rage powers.
So, my answer to: Can Skalds with the Extra Rage Power feat grant that Rage Power to their allies during a Raging Song?
Absolutely.
That's the belief I had until I was researching Skald ideas and kept coming across people that believed otherwise.
Honestly I never would have considered that the feat didn't work, but now that I've read dissension, I'm second guessing it all.
Talk it over with your DM, he/she can make the call until it comes from an official source.
That's the belief I had until I was researching Skald ideas and kept coming across people that believed otherwise.
Honestly I never would have considered that the feat didn't work, but now that I've read dissension, I'm second guessing it all.
It is my opinion that you are reading the class ability correctly.
Is the rage power being granted by the Skald's Rage Power class feature? Yes. Then he can grant the use to allies under the effect of Inspired Rage.
Does Extra Rage Power give you an alternate source of rage powers? No, it increases the number of Rage Powers you have by virtue of your Rage Power class feature (this is why it is a prerequisite).
Why do I believe it is meant to be read this way? For a rage power to be granted to an ally, it must have a listed barbarian level. A skald grants a barbarian level to the rage powers he has, by virtue of his skald rage power class feature, to those under the effects of his inspired rage ability. Other sources of rage powers require to to have X number of levels in that class in order to obtain that power. It goes to reason that unless you have X levels in that class, you can not benefit from it. The skald is a unique class that allows for other to benefit from its rage powers. Thus, rage powers granted by other CLASSES aside from SKALD will NOT be transferable through Inspired Rage.
That is all.
The trouble here is that the ability can be parsed either way. Originally, I believed exactly as you did/do. The phrasing does not exactly define what constitutes the source (or perhaps more specifically, if feats modify the source or add to it). The 2 possibilities are:
The source is the rage powers (ex) ability granted by a particular number of Skald levels. The 'extra rage power' feat modifies this ability, adding an additional power at the level at which the feat is taken. Thus, all powers are part of the source, and may be shared.
The source is the rage powers (ex) ability granted by a particular number of Skald levels. The 'extra rage power' feat adds an additional power that a player may benefit from whenever they use their rage class feature. In this case, the feat is a separate source, much as a number of Barbarian levels.
Clearly, whoever wrote the pregenenerated character subscribes to the second philosophy. It is the most restrictive reading.
I understand both interpretations. I simply choose to use the most restrictive reading of the definition of 'source'. The origin of the class ability. The feat is merely a modifier. I say this because the feat can not grant a rage power without first having the class ability.
Thus, any rage powers gained through leveling in the Skald class, even if granted by a character feat, have their origin (source) in the Rage Power class feature of the Skald.
Skald <- Rage Powers (class feature) <- Rage Power
Skald <- Rage Powers (class feature) <- Rage Power <- Extra Rage Power
I think you actually misunderstood. The restrictive reading is that the source is limited to the single set of abilities (rage powers) granted by the Skald class. The source is described only by the text within the Skald class features, meaning that it is limited to a single rage power given on every third Skald level.
You have paraphrased my description of the less restrictive parsing -- which is a valid interpretation, notwithstanding the pregenerated character..
To be clear, the question in my mind is: do feats actively modify class features, or do they act as additional benefits that activate in conjunction with class features? This usually does not matter, but the skald actually cares.
I think it might be a communication issue, rather than a misunderstanding issue. Mostly on my end.
Let me address your question:
do feats actively modify class features, or do they act as additional benefits that activate in conjunction with class features?
Yes and no. Depends on the feat. There are feats that grant brand new abilities. Some modify existing abilities. Others increase the number of times you can use an ability per day. Some let you fast forward ahead and snag a new ability you'd learn later.
A Skald does not just gain a "Rage Power" every three levels. He gains 'Rage Powers' (note the plurality) as a class feature at 3rd level, and then selects a 'Rage Power' at 3rd level and every three levels afterwards. This is a very important distinction because this class feature is the SOURCE of his Rage Power(s). His/her levels are merely a modifier on how many rage powers he/she has.
A Barbarian's source of his rage power(s) is his Rage Powers class ability. A Viking's source of his rage power(s) is his Rage Powers class ability. A multiclass Skald/Barbarian would have two different sources of Rage Power(s). Two different class features/abilities called Rage Powers. Only those granted through the Skald's Rage Powers class feature can be used through Inspired Rage.
Did that clarify anything? If not, no biggie. We know what each other is saying, even if we disagree.
TL;DR? I don't see Extra Rage Power as a source of rage powers. I see it merely as a modifier to the 'source' that allows you to select a new rage power in advanced, the Rage Powers class feature.
Yes, I think we've come to an understanding. I don't think Paizo has ever needed to clarify that feats modify abilities or merely act in conjunction with abilities. As far as I know, this only matters for Skalds, hence the confusion.
Personally, I'd prefer the less restrictive interpretation as well. However, to put the contrasting opinion in terms similar to those you used...
The 'source' of rage powers described in the Skald rage powers ability is completely described within that section. No other skald class feature, other class feature, feat or mythic ability modifies that class feature (I.e. set of rage powers) unless specifically noted -- as the item 'poet's cloak' does.
The only reason I'm even supporting the restrictive ruling is the pregenerated character. If that was made by a Paizo employee (which is an assumption, I admit), I will continue using it as a guide for this ambiguous rule, until such time that it is corrected (or found to be in fault by the design team or equivalent authority)