
shea83 |
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hi guys,
i need your help.
I'm starting a new campaign and i've decided to build an arcanist.
Choosing "school understanding" exploit, i'm interested in 1-st lvl school power of Void school: Reveal Weakness.
Reveal Weakness (Su)
When you activate this school power as a standard action, you select a foe within 30 feet. That creature takes a penalty to its AC and on saving throws equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum –1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus.
By RAW this power is "caster level" dependant and not "wizard level" as penality on ST or AC. So if I'm arcanist lvl 12, i should lower by 6 AC of my targeted enemy. Is this right or wrong? Have been some errata/faq about this argument?
Thanks

Daniel Turner Zen Archer |

School Understanding: The arcanist can select one arcane school from any of the schools available to a character with the arcane school wizard class feature, but does not have to select any opposition schools. The arcanist gains one ability of that arcane school as though she were a 1st-level wizard, using her Charisma modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for this ability. The ability must be one gained at 1st level and is limited in its use per day to 3 + the arcanist's Charisma modifier. As a swift action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to bolster her understanding, allowing her to treat her arcanist level as her wizard level for the purpose of using this ability for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). During this time, she also gains use of the other ability gained at 1st level for her selected school. She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as those gained at 8th level. If the arcanist already has an arcane school (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted the arcane school when determining the powers and abilities of her arcane school.
This is the relevant text for the original posters ability that they wanted clarification on, taken straight from this website.

Avoron |
I think what Faelyn was referring to was doing this:
Standard Action: Use Reveal Weakness.
Swift Action: Cast a quickened spell that requires a save.
That's an interesting question about your effective caster level. Jeff, Daniel, and Ascalaphus seem to be interpreting it as "you can use the ability as if you were a level one character, with a single level in wizard and no other powers."
However, I interpreted it as "you can use the ability with an effective wizard level of one."
You still have a caster level of 12, so you still get the effects of having a caster level of 12. This is independent from your effective wizard level.
In addition, a gnome or other appropriate race with a level 1 dip in wizard would be able to give a penalty equal to half their character level.
That's why it's so horrible to have effects that are based off of someone's caster level for something other than a specific spell. Diabolist imp companions, staves, Quicken/Empower Spell-Like Ability, item creation feats, none of those should be based off of something so variable as "caster level."
But it works.

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School Understanding: The arcanist can select one arcane school from any of the schools available to a character with the arcane school wizard class feature, but does not have to select any opposition schools. The arcanist gains one ability of that arcane school as though she were a 1st-level wizard, using her Charisma modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for this ability. The ability must be one gained at 1st level and is limited in its use per day to 3 + the arcanist's Charisma modifier. As a swift action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to bolster her understanding, allowing her to treat her arcanist level as her wizard level for the purpose of using this ability for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). During this time, she also gains use of the other ability gained at 1st level for her selected school. She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as those gained at 8th level.
I think it's pretty clear. You use Reveal Weakness as if you were a level 1 wizard, and a level 1 wizard would have caster level 1.

Avoron |
You use it as though you are a first level wizard.
But, dragonhunterq, it does matter what Reveal Weakness says says, because that ability is not dependent on wizard level. It is dependent on caster level.
You still have a caster level of 12. That is independent from whatever School Understanding gives you, and it has nothing to do with your effective wizard level.
Just like if you were a wizard 1/druid 12. You would be a first level wizard, but your caster level would still be 12.
Your wizard level has nothing to do with the effects of Reveal Weakness. Nothing at all. The fact that School Understanding limits your effective wizard level has no impact on it, and increasing your effective wizard level has no impact on it.
It depends entirely on your caster level, which is 12.

Avoron |
Spells specifically use your caster level for that class. Spell-like abilities have special rules for determining caster level.
But supernatural abilities are not tied to any specific caster level. It's certainly a reasonable house rule that it would use your wizard caster level. But I don't think the rules actually tell you to.
Same with feat prerequisites, staff use, and, worst of all, Diabolist imp companions. RAW, it doesn't matter whether you have a caster level from taking many levels in wizard or just from a spell-like ability you picked up through a trait.
I definitely think there should be more definite rules about what caster levels you can use for what purposes. But there aren't, as far as I am aware.

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You should consider where the ability is coming from. If you get a spell-like ability from a class, its caster level comes from that class. If it comes from race, it tends to come from your HD/total character level.
I don't really see any reason to do it differently with supernatural abilities. If the supernatural ability comes from class X, then the caster level you have in class X is the caster level the ability is referring to.

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But supernatural abilities are not tied to any specific caster level. It's certainly a reasonable house rule that it would use your wizard caster level. But I don't think the rules actually tell you to.
Care to show me the rule that says "Su abilities use the highest caster level possessed" and I'll agree.
Until then, both are house rules. Because the rules don't indicate which way to work it. This means each GM determines how this works. Many will say it is CL 1 from "as a 1st level Wizard" and others may say CL 12.

kestral287 |
Your caster level in a class is always the total number of levels in a class that lets you cast spells. It just is. Abilities from that class that depend on caster level refer to that number. They just do.
Technically untrue with the Paladin/Ranger, who have a caster level distinct from their class level.
The RAI is pretty evident that you'd use it with a CL1, but the RAW is more ambiguous-- after all, it's perfectly possible for a character with one level of Wizard to have a caster level greater than 1, so just "as a first level Wizard" doesn't say much about caster levels directly until we start assuming things... which is kind of no longer the whole "RAW" thing.

Uwotm8 |
Technically untrue with the Paladin/Ranger, who have a caster level distinct from their class level.
Those exceptions are explicitly spelled out. It doesn't invalidate the normal caster scenario.
If you're saying RAI is that they only ever get a -1 then that's pretty weak and never work taking.

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My understanding from reading the ability is that this line
". . .As a swift action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to bolster her understanding, allowing her to treat her arcanist level as her wizard level for the purpose of using this ability for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). . ."
indicates it operates as a 1st level wizard until you spend 1 point, then its treated as arcanist level equal to wizard level. I am not sure though if maybe I am just reading not enough into it but it seems pretty cut and dry.

Uwotm8 |
It doesn't say it operates as a 1st level wizard. It says they get it as if they were a 1st level wizard. There is a difference, and it's part of Paizo's sloppy wordings and is why I do tend to throw a fit over their actual text. It's just saying they get a class ability and because class ability's are tied to class level it's a clumsy way to try to cap School Understand's power so they can't get 8th level abilities. That's really it. Their wording used is a clumsy way to try to wrap them all up with the same wording. It might technically work but it creates misunderstandings.

Avoron |
You get it as if you were a first level wizard.
Regardless of that fact, you do not have a caster level of one. You have a caster level of 12.
Ascalaphus and Uwotm8, you both claim that there is a rule saying that if you have a supernatural ability that comes from a class and depends on your caster level, you must use your caster level from that class. Can you actually show me that rule?
I agree that this definitely should be in the rules, but it isn't, and RAW a caster level is a caster level.
James, I agree that the rules don't talk about the issue at all. That's the problem. Unless there are specific rules, an ability that gives a penalty equal to half your caster level gives a -6 penalty if you have a caster level of 12. Period.
kestral 287, I agree with you completely.

HyperMissingno |

Uwotm8 wrote:Your caster level in a class is always the total number of levels in a class that lets you cast spells. It just is. Abilities from that class that depend on caster level refer to that number. They just do.Technically untrue with the Paladin/Ranger, who have a caster level distinct from their class level.
There's another situation, namely if you are multiclassing and using the Magical Knack trait which improves your caster level by two as long as it doesn't make your caster level go over your character level.

HyperMissingno |

Not universally...
Quote:Pick a class when you gain this trait
Yes, it applies to only one class, but it makes your caster level and your class levels not equal. For example, a sorcerer 5/barbarian 2 with the trait counts has having 5 levels of sorcerer for everything except for caster level. A Draconic Sorcerer for example won't have claws that do 1d6 (or 1d4) damage.
The point is that there are exceptions to class level = caster level already present, so this also might be an exception.

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James, I agree that the rules don't talk about the issue at all. That's the problem. Unless there are specific rules, an ability that gives a penalty equal to half your caster level gives a -6 penalty if you have a caster level of 12. Period.
That is our difference, it is -6 if the GM interprets it that way. It could also be -1 if they interpret the CL 1 way. Basically GM call.

Avoron |
Uwotm8, the penalty given is not a level dependent variable. It is a caster level dependent variable. Caster level is completely separate from class level. For spells, there's a specific rule saying your caster level is equal to your class level in the class you're using to cast the spell. That does not mean they are the same thing.

Deadkitten |

RAI is that the ability was probably written forgetting that the Void school even existed or how it worked. Its the only school power that functions as it does and it was printed in an obscure source. When the ability was written for the Arcanists, Void was probably never even looked at.
But refardless, just add it to the numerous things in ACG that need errata. It works off of your caster level, even when you use it as a first level wizard, you are still using your caster level. Nothing in the ability says you would use it at CL 1. All the other school powers work off of Wizard level and not caster level.
This should just get FAQed and placed on errata for the ACG, but considering Void is obscure it is not likely.

Avoron |
Are those abilities dependent on caster level?
If not, and they're dependent on cleric level, then they function at whatever cleric level you have.
If they are dependent on caster level, then they function at whatever caster level you have.
This is not an issue about the Arcanist's school understanding ability, nor is it really an issue about the Void School. The question is this: If a class grants you a supernatural ability that is dependent on caster level, is it required to be based off of your caster level for casting spells in that class?
And I have stated before, but perhaps not clearly enough, is that I believe that the answer RAI is 100% yes.
However, RAI doesn't help anybody if it's not in the rules or in an FAQ.
RAW, there is no limitation on what caster level you can use for these abilities.
Similar, yet less significant and more difficult to fix, problems exist with staves. But that's another topic.

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RAW, there is no limitation on what caster level you can use for these abilities.
You won't find a "it says I can't" in the rules because the entire language of the game is written under the assumption you are single classed.
They have explained this in a couple FAQ discussion threads, but these two FAQ are applicable here: