Wielding a large katana question

[Jeff Clem]

Can a medium character with exotic weapon proficiency Katana wield a large Katana taking -2 due to it's size.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Yes. It'd be just like the barbarian archetype who uses a large bastard sword. (only 2d6 18-20 instead of 2d8 19-20)

It wouldn't be very good though. You'd be better off with a normal sized nodachi. Only 1.5 less damage, two points more accurate, and it wouldn't require a feat.

[Deighton Thrane]

Nodachi is a martial weapon, so unless you only have simple weapon proficiencies, you don't need a feat for it.

EDIT - Seems like the person I was responding to removed his post, now I just look kinda silly. But I also second the Nodachi over a large Katana. The extra 1.5 damage for a -2 to hit and a feat isn't a good trade.

[Ipslore the Red]

Someone do correct me if my math is wrong.

The -2 to hit equals -10% damage compared to a greatsword.

18-20/x2 equals 5% more of a chance to deal 100% more damage, but it requires another successful attack roll to confirm, to which the -2 also applies. Therefore, the crit range increase is worth 4.5% more damage.

A basic katana is 5.5% less damage than a greatsword on average, and requires one more feat. You'd want keen or Improved Critical.

Improved Crit greatsword becomes 17-20/x2, no -2 to hit.

Improved Crit large katana becomes 15-20/x2, -2 to hit. It has a 10% greater chance of a critical threat, giving it a 10% damage advantage. But the -2 to hit applies to confirmation rolls, so that becomes a 9% damage advantage. After factoring in the -2 to hit being worth 10% damage, it's still 1% less damage than a greatsword.

[Deighton Thrane]

That looks about right to me Ipslore. When you start looking at to hit as part of your average damage per round, or attack, the trade offs for large sized weapons really don't seem worth it. If you compare it to power attack, you'd need to do an additional 6 damage to be worth a -2 to hit.

[Claxon]

The old adage is that 1 point of to hit is worth 2 points of damage. Thus power attack.

So, in order to overcome -2 penalty to hit you would need to deal an extra 4 points of damage.

But even more important ipslore, is that you can have 15-20x2 with a nodachi.

The nodachi deals 1d10 (5.5) points of damage. A large katana deals 2d6 (7) points of damage. That is a difference of 1.5 points of damage on average, but also causes the -2 penalty to hit and requires a feat.

You are spending a feat to deal less damage on average.

[Chengar Qordath]

Not to mention you're out a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency on top of getting less average damgae.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

The -2 to hit equals -10% damage compared to a greatsword.

No - that's a common mistake. It's more than that, but the amount varies depending upon how easy the target was to hit in the first place.

For example (numbers chosen for math simplicity) - if you can hit something on a roll of 11, that's 50% of the time. A -2 to that would make you need to roll a 13, or hit 40% of the time. That's not a 10% reduction in damage, it's a 20% reduction. (1-40/50)

So unless you only miss on a crit miss (where theoretically the -2 to hit would make it so that you still hit on a roll of 2+, and thus not change your accuracy at all) a -2 to hit is always more than a 10% reduction in damage, and usually considerably more.

[Ipslore the Red]

Claxon- agreed, but like Deighton Thrane, I was partially responding to someone who removed his post. He had compared a large katana to a greatsword due to the base damage dice.

Charon- Ah, you're right. I should've said -10% chance to hit. That way it'd have been clearer that I meant a flat 10%, not a proportional 10%.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

Charon- Ah, you're right. I should've said -10% chance to hit. That way it'd have been clearer that I meant a flat 10%, not a proportional 10%.

Well - you used it in your math as a proportional 10%.

The crit chance damage increase is proportional after all - and you were treating them the same. (Easy mistake to make when trying to simplify the math. That's why I always show an example instead - it's half me checking my own work.)

[NikolaiJuno]

How does that math apply to the samurai?

[Charon's Little Helper]

NikolaiJuno wrote:

How does that math apply to the samurai?

It's still a bad idea to have a -2 to hit for an extra 1.5 damage, though in the case of a Samurai other equivelent two-handed weapons aren't really an option. (I've always thought it odd that they can't pick Nodachi as one of their weapon choices myself.)

[Rodinia]

@OP: It works, but it's an ineffective thing to do.

Here's a historical woodcut of a battle between Japanese and Korean warriors. Notice how both sides bristle with reach weapons? You might consider carrying a reach weapon to inflate your character's damage, rather than an outsized weapon. It's much more effective.

The traditional weapons of the Samurai are the Katana, Wakizashi, and bow. Female samurai learned the naginata, as did many male samurai. In an actual battle many Samurai would also carry a reach weapon, like a lance, spear, horse cutter, nagimaki, or naginata. Even Ito Ogami did it.

[Qaianna]

I remember a few weeks ago testing out the large bastard sword vs greatsword debate on a spreadsheet I managed to cobble together. Found out a couple things:

1: 19-20/x2 crit averages the same as x3 (Earth Breaker vs Greatsword).
2: 2-handing a Medium bastard sword for 1d10 was more effective for most enemies than the large bastard sword.
3: Large bastard sword is +2 damage compared to the greatsword (which is better than a normal bastard sword in and of itself).

+2 damage for -2 to hit is definitely not worth it. +1.5 damage for -2 to hit is likely even worse. Which is a shame since the Large swords are inherently cool..ah well.

[Dragonchess Player]

A Large bastard sword (or katana) might be worth it if:

1) You have ready access to enlarge person
2) Can cast lead blades

A Large character wielding a Huge bastard sword (via enlarge person) and under the effect of lead blades does 4d8 base weapon damage, as opposed to 4d6 for the same character using a Large greatsword. A Huge katana does 3d6 base weapon damage as opposed to 2d6 from a Large falchion or 2d8 from a Large nodachi.

A divine hunter with the Growth subdomain can cast both enlarge person and lead blades (as well as gaining a swift action enlarge person effect).

[Melkiador]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

A Large character wielding a Huge bastard sword (via enlarge person) and under the effect of lead blades does 4d8 base weapon damage, as opposed to 4d6 for the same character using a Large greatsword.

Although that's just 18 vs 14 average damage. So, spending a feat to take -2 to hit for +4 damage. I'd say it's "worth it", but hardly game breaking.

[NikolaiJuno]

1st level hunter 4th level abyssal Bloodrager could do it to.

[Dragonchess Player]

Melkiador wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

A Large character wielding a Huge bastard sword (via enlarge person) and under the effect of lead blades does 4d8 base weapon damage, as opposed to 4d6 for the same character using a Large greatsword.

Although that's just 18 vs 14 average damage. So, spending a feat to take -2 to hit for +4 damage. I'd say it's "worth it", but hardly game breaking.

"Worth it [in some circumstances]." That pretty much describes a lot of options...

[Chengar Qordath]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

A Large bastard sword (or katana) might be worth it if:

1) You have ready access to enlarge person
2) Can cast lead blades

A Large character wielding a Huge bastard sword (via enlarge person) and under the effect of lead blades does 4d8 base weapon damage, as opposed to 4d6 for the same character using a Large greatsword. A Huge katana does 3d6 base weapon damage as opposed to 2d6 from a Large falchion or 2d8 from a Large nodachi.

A divine hunter with the Growth subdomain can cast both enlarge person and lead blades (as well as gaining a swift action enlarge person effect).

I would toss in another caveat on that:

3) You will be using Vital Strike or another ability that multiplies your weapon damage dice.

[Avoron]

Or if you use wild shape to become a huge earth elemental or something similar, a gargantuan impact bastard sword is the best damage melee weapon you can get. It deals 6d8 base damage, multiplied to 18d8 with Improved Vital Strike, and maximized for 144 if you happen to have Furious Finish. In this last case, this would be a +36 damage as compared to a huge impact greatsword.

A dip in Titan Fighter lets you use a gargantuan impact greatsword, which has a higher average damage but an equal maximized damage. Plus it has more penalties, so it looks like Bastard Sword still comes out on top.

Of course, at this point, one must wonder why the character doesn't just use a natural weapon for far better damage.

So, yeah, situational.

[Imbicatus]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

A Large bastard sword (or katana) might be worth it if:

1) You have ready access to enlarge person
2) Can cast lead blades

A Large character wielding a Huge bastard sword (via enlarge person) and under the effect of lead blades does 4d8 base weapon damage, as opposed to 4d6 for the same character using a Large greatsword. A Huge katana does 3d6 base weapon damage as opposed to 2d6 from a Large falchion or 2d8 from a Large nodachi.

A divine hunter with the Growth subdomain can cast both enlarge person and lead blades (as well as gaining a swift action enlarge person effect).

I would toss in another caveat on that:

3) You will be using Vital Strike or another ability that multiplies your weapon damage dice.

Vital Strike alone isn't enough to make it worth while. You would need Vital Strike and furious finish or something similar.