I've recently started going to PFS games from time to time and because there are strict rules about everything, I'm having a hard time making decisions.
My main problem is that I can not find the balance in stats or determine the exact route I want to go for with feats.
Generally, I want to be using a longsword to 2h power attack whenever I can and take out a shield for the really tough fights against very offensively specialized foes.
I'm not sure if I want to take Combat Expertise and go with the combat maneuver route or simply go with an 18 STR score to get more out of two-handing my longsword.
I'm also not sure if I want to take a few two-weapon fighting feats simply for the purpose of having the option.
For the time being, I'm limited to CRB material and I'd like to get this character working for the next 3 levels.
What I have so far:
Fighter 1, Human
16 STR (+2 human)
15 DEX
14 CON
13 INT (I'm thinking of possibly changing this for CHA to take an Eldritch Heritage feat at 3. Don't have that book yet, though.)
10 CHA
10 WIS
Breastplate, Heavy Wooden Shield, Masterwork Longsword
Feats:
F1: Power Attack
H1: Weapon Focus (Longsword)
G1: Dodge
Traits:
Indomitable Faith
Reactionary (Alternatively I could switch this with Armor Expert to mitigate some of the shield's penalties when used.)
I'm entirely unsure of what I should be doing with feats for the next few levels.
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I'm well aware that a 2-handing or reach built fighter might be more optimised, but I like the versatility of having the option to sword-and-board when I need it brings over just stacking more strength so I can whack things harder with my sharpened shovel.
If possible, what other books might be recommended for purchase to strengthen this build and concept at later/early levels?
I'm going to be honest here, and give it to you bluntly. Fighter is a pretty bad time.
Combat maneuvers are awful for the most part, unless you're generally fighting humanoids because of limitations (size, legs, flying, doesn't use manufactured weapons), certain conditions (you don't want to grapple a succubus... well, maybe you do), and high cmd scores. This doesn't mean you shouldn't invest, but be ready to be useless when these things happen depending on what maneuver you're investing in.
I'm not sure why you would want to invest in heritage, but typically fighters want to dump cha. The 13 int is also usually only necessary for combat maneuvers. Your best bud for basic fighter class (no archetype) is your armor training, so I'd consider if you want to have your character take advantage of that.
About the feats for your build... with only the crb, perhaps you want to get a weapon with a crit range instead of a longsword to later take improved critical. Blind-fight might be something you're interested in, combat reflexes especially if you get trip feats, lunge, or iron will. Intimidating prowess to shatter defenses might be up your alley.
Feats like cleave, feat chain to get whirlwind attack/spring attack, and vital strike I feel aren't worth it, but step up I also don't like, but it can be cool.
Weapon specialization is definitely something to take.
A buckler is highly recommended. You have a hand free to hold other items, open doors, get items out. You have more ac, and can enhance it for better ac. You can choose to two hand your weapon, and only take a -1 attack penalty and the loss of the ac bonus.
I also suggest combat reflexes and a reach weapon. This can also be great with trip maneuvers and greater trip, but the loss of ac due to no shield you'll notice.
Hmmm, well. Nothing new there, I just like the "idea" of a fighter class without being a barbarian or a ranger, if you get me.
Alright. How about, say, multiclassing? Perhaps there are decent one-two level dips that could offer me a reasonable bonus to my saves, a useful ability or some such?
I've been looking at Cleric and Warpriest, because they can offer some nice things.
For instance Warpriests 1 level dip War Blessing offers a 10 round buff which allows you to pick either +1 to attack, +1 to AC, +1 to saving throws or +10 movement speed at every round as a non-action. Sounds neat, even if I lose one BaB. I'll still gain a +2 to will and fortitude saves, which is sure to help in one fashion or another.
Perhaps I could go with a rogue instead, to grant myself an explosive amount of skill points and an extra d6 on that longsword if the stars align?
I won't be missing that much at level 2. I can survive having to wait to get my 2nd level feat and, especially, bravery.
Perhaps a dip into Brawler could give me something to work with? That way by keeping Int at 10, I'll have a 13 Int counting for feats and Martial Versatility, actually giving me an effective 1 extra feat at my 2nd level instead of the bonus 1 from fighter.
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I'm willing to buy an extra book or two, if there are actual worthwhile options in them.
Reach is amazing, but I simply don't want to use it. I could keep a reach weapon with me in case I need it. 12 GP on a Bardiche isn't a problem.
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Quick-draw sounds great! Not sure if I can make a throwing shield happen, though. But if I can, that'd be great.
There are two spectrums to this game for character creation. Optimization, and flavor. I try my best to include the best of both worlds.
I'm at work/on phone, so linking you will be an issue now, but there are things online called "guide books" that are free. There is a thread on the forums that are full of guide book links, and it might be sticky on advice section maybe. Look at a guide and see what sources are needed for the feats you like.
Pdf goes are cheaper than hardcover books too, and are legal for pfs
Advanced players guide and ultimate combat are what's up I believe if you want feats and archetypes that are good.
Could be a good idea, but for this set up, the traditional fighter seems just fine, so I'll forego archetypes, I think. And yes, I've read a few guides on the fighter. I'm just going for personal preference right now, much more than pure optimization. What if I go:
Fighter (Or Martial Master, maybe?) 1/Swashbuckler 2/Fighter --
16 STR
15 DEX
13 CON
14 CHA
10 INT
10 WIS
At level 3 I'll have.
Saves: Fort 3/ Ref 5/ Will 1
+3 BaB
F1: Weapon Focus (Longsword)
H1: Dodge
G1: Power Attack
G3: Shield Focus, Quick-draw, Iron Will to make that save go up to 3 or Toughness to make up for the low CON score.
A Panache pool of 2. Killing and critting with a longsword qualifies, because it is considered to be both piercing and slashing, and one-handed, even if used as a 2-handed weapon.
Swashbuckler's Finesse. Don't need weapon finesse, but my intellect is considered to be 14 for qualifying for a variety of feats.
Charmed Life 3/day. I can add +2 to any saving throw as an immediate action.
I'll have 2 levels worth of 4 skill points and a whole score of class skills, which I can fill up with said skill points.
Deeds. Specifically the ability to parry twice per day or add a d6 which can explode to all of my physical skills.
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What I like specifically is the ability to parry. It seems amazingly good, even if I delay my fighter progression and will only be able to get my medium armor movement speed increase at level 5.
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If going with a longsword/shield build consider a variation on Celebrian. You want more of a focus on strength and power attack, but you could still go the Improved Shield bash + TWF route when the extra AC is desired.
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Hmmm, well. Nothing new there, I just like the "idea" of a fighter class without being a barbarian or a ranger, if you get me.
No I dont really get you. That stuff is in your head. First both ranger and barbarian are fighters. Secondly they are better. Saves are better, skills are better, rage and spells are better. But seriously I could easily make a slayer and unless I said hey im a X you wouldn't know. With a fighter you get very limited options...those options are purely combat. PFS has many things outside combat as well where you will find yourself playing the "durrrr im a fighter and thats all I do" moments.
Advice from a veteran player. Dont get hung up on the class name. You might miss the forest for a single tree.
As far as the sword and shield options.
The best way to accomplish sword and sometimes board is doing Bastard sword.
It allows you to 2 handed power attack for more damage while still getting 1d10 damage with a 1 handed weapon. You could then get quickdraw and grab your shield if need be.
As far as the sword and shield options.
The best way to accomplish sword and sometimes board is doing Bastard sword.
It allows you to 2 handed power attack for more damage while still getting 1d10 damage with a 1 handed weapon. You could then get quickdraw and grab your shield if need be.
You need an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use a bastard sword one-handed (Source), and all you're getting over using a longsword is an average +1 damage per hit. This is not generally a meaningful difference, and you could almost certainly use that feat you spent on Exotic Weapon Proficiency for something that matters more often (Iron Will, Blind Fight).
@Fruian Thistlefoot
First of all a level of fighter gives me 3 feats at level 1, which really help with the concept I'm going for.
I dislike slayer and ranger for the fact that you actually need to spend time staring at the enemy before engaging them, rather than simply moving up to the front line and making it rain.
Barbarian is cool, but he gets -hit- alot and you actually need to spend your precious few feats if you want to have anywhere near a decent AC. (Let's leave the Invulnerable Rager out of the equation for now.)
Ranger, even with its most flexible archetypes, still wastes an ability slot for an animal companion, which I don't want, and Spellcasting, which I prefer to do without, while needing an entire move action just to get his to-hit and damage bonuses going against an opponent, essentially leaving the front line open for enemy grabs.
And finally, the only class which can realistically complete the sword and board feat line is actually the fighter and probably the ranger. But that's not I portent, because I've only got a level 1 PFS character.
If you've perhaps got any better class ideas to make this concept happen within the span of 3 levels, I'm all game. My solution is Fighter 1 / Swashbuckler 2, and it might be a bad one for all I know.
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With a fighter you get very limited options...those options are purely combat. PFS has many things outside combat as well where you will find yourself playing the "durrrr im a fighter and thats all I do" moments.
This is a player issue, not a class issue.
My PFS fighter holds his own in social and knowledge based scenarios. Most people would never guess he was a fighter, unless I told them.
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@ Gulian
If you wish to play fighter class, play fighter class. People on the boards tend to always point out the best possible choice, which might not be what you want. Fighter can work just fine, especially in PFS. It all boils down on what is more pleasing to you, as a player.
What you need to know about fighter is that he has lack of skills and tends to get overshadowed by multiple spellcasters in party so having higher number of skills and versatility in general might improve your gameplay experience. He is likewise, good at attacking, combat maneuvers can work just fine and a tough guy all around, but remains weak with Will Saves and sometimes stuff like combat maneuvers tend to fail to work such as attempting to trip a giant whose CMD is fairly high.
I will recommend Lore Warden archetype if you can take it for PFS play. It's really great archetype, but as you are stuck with CRB only, your above build (first build) seemed just fine. Just remember, if you build fighter only around combat and focus on combat, he might be good at just that. Taking trait for Diplomacy as class skill might be cool and good choice.
Adam
I was actually hoping to get some of those social class skills from the swashbuckler at level 2, as well as two levels worth of 1 extra skill point to shore up the fighter's narrowness. At least to set myself up for future levels.
I use all my favorite class bonuses on skill points, which is also the reason I picked human, effectively giving me 4 per level. Swashbuckler will bump that up to 5 per level, or 6 if I want to use a prestige point and reroll the character to have swashbuckler as his favored class bonus.
I was hoping to get a bunch of class skills and get into the zone of having decent skill versatility through the extra +3 points, without investing all the way into skill monkey zone. Just a +7 here, +6 there. Kind of like that. I'm not sure if this is a valid approach.
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The swashbuckler is a mix of fighter & gunslinger class so you can't really multiclass fighter/swashbuckler but you could just go full swashbuckler class instead of fighter. It's a mix of both classes after all but keep in mind that swashbuckler is from ACG. Fighter/Rogue might not be bad approach likewise if you want bunch of class skills and skill points. Slayer class is also good mix of everything.
I read the Parental class thing, and I didn't see anything saying I couldn't multiclass. It just warned that I may receive overlapping abilities. Did I miss something?
I'm not aware that that specific restriction made it into the final versions of the ACG classes.
EDIT: yah, what the bundle of sticks said.
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I was actually hoping to get some of those social class skills from the swashbuckler at level 2, as well as two levels worth of 1 extra skill point to shore up the fighter's narrowness. At least to set myself up for future levels.
I use all my favorite class bonuses on skill points, which is also the reason I picked human, effectively giving me 4 per level. Swashbuckler will bump that up to 5 per level, or 6 if I want to use a prestige point and reroll the character to have swashbuckler as his favored class bonus.
I was hoping to get a bunch of class skills and get into the zone of having decent skill versatility through the extra +3 points, without investing all the way into skill monkey zone. Just a +7 here, +6 there. Kind of like that. I'm not sure if this is a valid approach.
Lore Warden picks up an extra 2 skill points/level, used on knowledge skills, and has all knowledge skills as class skills.
He gives up initial proficiency with medium and heavy armor, but can purchase it with feats.
So, this might actually work then.
The main reason I don't want to go into full swashbuckler is because it begins to restrict you to wearing light armor more and more, while I would like to use medium. It'd give me a lot of dead levels. 2nd level gives me charmed life, which helps shore up my weakest point - saves and the parry just makes me better at my job while exponentially increasing my swagger as I carry it out.
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Edit: I don't have that book, sadly. And it also gives up armor training. I'd like to have at the very least one rank to freely move around in medium armor.
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With a fighter you get very limited options...those options are purely combat. PFS has many things outside combat as well where you will find yourself playing the "durrrr im a fighter and thats all I do" moments.This is a player issue, not a class issue.
My PFS fighter holds his own in social and knowledge based scenarios. Most people would never guess he was a fighter, unless I told them.
Totally agree with this sentiment. Your fighter is only useless out of combat if you design them that way.
Yesterday my fighter used his ranks in knowledge planes, allowing us to ID the outsider we were fighting, thus allowing the spellcasters to use the right elemental damage. And I'm not a lore warden. Amazing what the right trait choices can do to make you more than just a fighter.
I'm still at work, so I skipped things written, but if you want sword and shield and will get another book, then be a slayer. Shield slam, shield master, two weapon fighting. Their combat styles cheat and get your things mega early. Skull points and everything, and at level 7 you swift action to gain your bonus.
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I'm still at work, so I skipped things written, but if you want sword and shield and will get another book, then be a slayer. Shield slam, shield master, two weapon fighting. Their combat styles cheat and get your things mega early. Skull points and everything, and at level 7 you swift action to gain your bonus.
You still need the Advanced Player's Guide for the sword&shield combat style. You can make do with the TWF combat style, but early access to Shield Master really makes the build.
I earlier mentioned apg and uc for feats. You'll want them.
I'll get them tomorrow, yeah. I'll see what I can make of this.
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Or you can use true strike to turn cmb into your friend.
Since fighter joins the lofty class of Rogue in infamy, I've been seriously looking at Cad for a fighter rogue / which gives me the skill points you've sought. However the medium armor requirement impedes that for you.
2 levels of Monk Maneuver master gives you +3 to all saves and the ability to tap in a maneuver each round of attacks.
My favorite maneuver pair is Dirty Trick & trip (peace through horizontal blindness)
That could be cool. It also allows me to bypass some feat tax early of for trip stuff! I lose one BaB but I guess it doesn't specifically matter, because you can hardly hit anything at level 6 with a -5 penalty to your attacks, attacking at a measly +4-5 at max, so it's not really a huge loss. The fighter makes up for it with Weapon Focus and later on Weapon Specialization with Duelist's Gloves (Not sure if PFS legal).
A question. If I were to use Pushing Assault with this shtick, would the pushing assault effect come in at the end, allowing the combat maneuver to be applied, or does it simply push the enemy away and he's out of reach for the rest of your attacks?
Because if that's not the case you could really ruin someone's life as you full attack his face forcing him to lose his feet while sending him flying through the air backwards. He won't be able to full-attack back at all, and whenever he's back on his feet, having used his move action to walk up and attack you, you've just drawn your shield and wait for him to step in and fail at punching through your AC as you declare fighting defensively and combat expertise.
Kind of don't like the barbarian for this particular build up. This is a character that's more of a battle master than a champion of physical superiority.
But yeah, thinking of eventually going fighter 5/Maneuver Master 1 or 2/ Swashbuckler 2/ Maybe a level of Urban Barbarian to have the option of adjusting my stats to the occasion. The rest should be fighter, since feats are awesome.
Eventual line up:
Armor Training 2
Bonus Maneuver at full attack
Weapon Training 1
Urban Rage ( The ability to pump up either STR or DEX depending on demand, allowing me to fulfill the armor training dex limit with medium armor or focus on offense. )
Charmed Life 3/day - Cha bonus to any save as an immediate action
Deeds - Either a parry and reposte as an immediate action (which is juicy as hell) or exploding d6 dice to any physical skill. 2 per day default, but can be regained by killing people with my longsword.
Astronomical saves. +2/3 from Maneuver Master dip, +2/3 from Barbarian to fort, +3 from Swashbuckler to ref, +6 fort +2 will +2 ref from fighter levels and an extra +2 will from iron will. But this is like waaaaaaaay down the line at the moment. Equaling up to like 12 8 7 saves at said level 12 without ability score modifiers implemented yet.
1 BaB loss, but not for maneuvers.
Now I pray that one day I get to that level. For now, I shall set my sights on level 3.
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This seems kind of cool to me. It's a lineup of small, but actually good abilities which are all universally useful at all levels. I think Urban Barbarians also grant fast movement, which should bring me up to 40 ft movement speed with armor training!