Weapon Finesse

[Ofunu]

Weapon finesse says that it can be used with Whips. Does this apply to different types of whips or only the normal ones? Can a Scorpion Whip or a Nine Section Whip qualify for this feat? If not, why? I mean, a spiked chain qualifies and it's heavier than either of those two weapons and they are one handed, while the chain is two handed.

[blackbloodtroll]

A Nine Section Whip is a Whip, the same way a Greatsword is a Shortsword.

They are completely different weapons, and function differently, but just happen to share a word in their name.

As for the Scorpion Whip? Nobody has a damn clue how that thing works.

[Ofunu]

Yes, however a Greatsword is way bigger and more obtrusive than a Shortsword. Whereas the Whip, Scorpion Whip and Nine Section Whip have the same shape and size. And have you seen how a Nine Section Whip is actually used? That thing requires technique much more than actual physical prowess.

As for how a Scorpion Whip works, it's the same as the normal Whip, except that the normal Whip cannot deal damage to someone who is using armor or who has natural armor higher than +3, while the Scorpion Whip doesn't have that limitation, but it cannot deal nonlethal damage.

[Valdimarian]

Scorpion Whip is a Light weapon, not a 1h weapon, so it works with Weapon Finesse just fine on it's own.

Whips are called out as Finesse weapons, letting a One Handed weapon qualify for Weapon Finesse, just like the One Handed weapon Rapier is specifically allowed to be used for Weapon Finesse.

[blackbloodtroll]

Nine Section Whip is not finessable.

That's RAW.

Feel free to houserule.

As for the Scorpion Whip, well, that's a whole different thread in, and of itself.

[Nefreet]

The problem regarding the Scorpion Whip is that its description has changed from book to book.

If this is for a home game, consult your GM on how it should work.

If this is for Pathfinder Society, Michael Brock has ruled that the Adventure's Armory version be used.

[blackbloodtroll]

That one, is still a bit confusing.

[Nefreet]

Hopefully when it gets updated in the Ultimate Equipment errata it will become more clear.

[blackbloodtroll]

Can we finesse the AA version?

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Ah, weapon finesse, the feat that never should have been.
Really should have just been a combat option available to everyone, like holding a one-handed weapon in two hands.

[Cyrus Lanthier]

Because adding to attack damage is on par with adding to Initiative, AC, actually useful Skills and Reflex Saves?

Also, do you think you should be able to get Strength to hit with ranged weaponry? Let's say, crossbows.

[Imbicatus]

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:

Because adding to attack damage is on par with adding to Initiative, AC, actually useful Skills and Reflex Saves?

Also, do you think you should be able to get Strength to hit with ranged weaponry? Let's say, crossbows.

It's easy to get STR to hit with ranged weapons if you are wearing the right belt.

[Cyrus Lanthier]

Imbicatus wrote:

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:

Because adding to attack damage is on par with adding to Initiative, AC, actually useful Skills and Reflex Saves?

Also, do you think you should be able to get Strength to hit with ranged weaponry? Let's say, crossbows.

It's easy to get STR to hit with ranged weapons if you are wearing the right belt.

In the second bit there, I was just wondering if that's something That Crazy Alchemist thinks you should just be able to do by default.

[blahpers]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Can we finesse the AA version?

If the description in the above-linked thread is accurate, no. It's a one-handed weapon, and you don't use it "as a whip" anymore; they simply share proficiency.

I'll be quite happy to see the scorpion whip made unambiguous at last, whatever the details. No idea when UE is up for a reprint, though.

[MrRetsej]

blahpers wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Can we finesse the AA version?

If the description in the above-linked thread is accurate, no. It's a one-handed weapon, and you don't use it "as a whip" anymore; they simply share proficiency.

I'll be quite happy to see the scorpion whip made unambiguous at last, whatever the details. No idea when UE is up for a reprint, though.

Yeah, it's a total mess and victim of the dreaded Word Count Scythe. As far as I've been able to gather from old developer posts over the years, the intention is that a Scorpion Whip should function exactly like a Whip (Can be used with Weapon Finesse, 15' reach, does not threaten, can attack anywhere in it's reach, disarm, trip, shares proficiency/prerequisites, etc.) except it does lethal damage.

Unfortunately, RAW, the AA Scorpion Whip works like this;

One-Handed, 10' reach, disarm, trip, cannot attack at 5', can threaten at 10', not finessable, but *can* benefit from using two handed for 1.5 times Strength bonus. Also it shares proficiency with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip.

And I got all excited when PFS made the AA Scorpion Whip the legal choice. Ugh. I wish they would just allocate the word count to very clearly describe how this whip should work so I can use it in PFS or at Ultra-pedantic GM's tables the way it was intended to be used.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:

Because adding to attack damage is on par with adding to Initiative, AC, actually useful Skills and Reflex Saves?

Also, do you think you should be able to get Strength to hit with ranged weaponry? Let's say, crossbows.

Weapon Finesse is a feat tax, clear and simple, and a very much unnecessary one. Dex fighters are already significantly weaker than Str fighters, why tax them for it? Weapon Finesse should just be a combat option that everyone gets for free if they wish, would help level the field for Str fighters and Dex fighters...not to mention the poor rogues what are feat starved as it is.

No I don't feel that ranged weapons should add strength bonus to hit, why should they?

[graystone]

That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

No I don't feel that ranged weapons should add strength bonus to hit, why should they?

What about brute strength thrown weapons like the old 'orc shotput'?

[That Crazy Alchemist]

graystone wrote:

That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

No I don't feel that ranged weapons should add strength bonus to hit, why should they?

What about brute strength thrown weapons like the old 'orc shotput'?

Oh, I meant ranged weapons like bows, crossbows and such. Hadn't thought about thrown weapons...hmm...good question. I could see that going either way.

EDIT: After thinking about it, thrown weapons would work just like melee wepaons in my imaginary finessing world. Light thrown weapons would be dex based, everything else str, with some exceptions.

[Ravingdork]

If Weapon Finesse said it works with "whips", plural, then I'd agree that it works with whips of all kinds, including the scorpion whip and the nine-section whip. However, it doesn't say that. It says "whip" which is singular and is clearly only referencing the whip in the core rulebook.

[MrRetsej]

Ravingdork wrote:

If Weapon Finesse said it works with "whips", plural, then I'd agree that it works with whips of all kinds, including the scorpion whip and the nine-section whip. However, it doesn't say that. It says "whip" which is singular and is clearly only referencing the whip in the core rulebook.

True, but also bear in mind that the Scorpion Whip is newer than Weapon Finesse. This seems like the same problem as the Deadly Aim feat not initially working with Firearms even though it was fully meant to and was clarified to work with them later.