Starting perhaps with the generation of us who played Final Fantasy games and remember the "white mage", there has long been a curiosity about playing a non-armored healing class in tabletop RPGs. While it is, of course, possible to play a Cleric and simply not wear armor, it's a sub-optimal choice, as the class is designed with armor in mind, and works best on the front/mid line. We've got a lot more options now in Pathfinder though, with Archetypes and extra base classes offering an almost unprecedented number of class options. I'd like to talk about options and builds, so I'll get things started:
White Mage (Arcanist Archetype, Advanced Class Guide)
- Pros: Arcane spellcasting offers some flexibility versus Divine spellcasters, and the Arcanist's semi-spontaneous casting makes this potentially one of the most flexible options. Gets Breath of Life.
- Cons: Gets Breath of Life one level after the Cleric does. Arcane Spellcasting means missing out on some of the common buffs that a healer normally provides. Casting Cure spells requires converting a spell slot and spending your Arcanist resource. Weapon choices are limited, and at 1st level you're giving up your normal Exploit, so unless you spend a feat on Extra Exploit, you could be coming up short on offense.
Hex Channeler (Witch Archetype, Advanced Class Guide)
- Pros: Access to Cure Spells, Channeling, and an extra Cure spell per party member (if you take the Heal Hex) means that you'll be putting out more heals than almost any other class option. Access to Witch's impressive list of debuff hexes and spells. Replaces your 2nd level Hex only, so it can easily stack with other Archetypes. Allows you to basically trade feats for Channel advancement via Extra Hex feat.
- Cons: Advancement of your Channeling requires you to either give up a Hex or a feat as you level up each time. Poor offensive output. This is definitely a support build. Forces the Witch to invest in Charisma.
Ecclesitheurge (Cleric Archetype, Advanced Class Guide)
- Pros: Full Divine spellcaster, with all of the buffs, heals, and resurrection that that implies. Can gain access to a wider list of domain spells than normal, adding more flexibility than other Clerics enjoy. Free extra spell slot. Can enchant their holy symbol without paying a feat. Unlike a Wizard's bonded object, the Ecclesitheurge isn't really hurt that much by the destruction of their bonded holy symbol; they just lose access to the extra spell slot.
- Cons: Loses 1d6 of Channel healing/damage overall. Loses access to weapon proficiency in their Deity's favored weapon. Has no way to make up for the AC deficit caused by the loss of armor proficiencies, and is barred from ever wearing armor. Seems to lose more than they gain.
Overall, I think the Hex Channeler is the best option, mechanically, though I suspect that the White Mage might be a bit more fun to play, particularly at later levels when you have enough spell slots and reservoir points to mix it up with heals and other exploits.
There are no oracle archetypes from official Paizo sources that replace the armor proficiencies. Oracle Archetypes generally just give you access to special Revelations.
There are, however, several Oracle Mysteries that give you access to Revelations that provide armor bonuses, such as Bones, Heavens, Waves, Air, Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, and Wood. In generall, they start out as Mage Armor equivalents, and they gain some extra ability (deflecting arrows, adding DR, or stealth bonuses) as you level up, and you get to use them for (level) hours per day (each activation must use at least one hour though). They're not ideal though, since they take up a Revelation slot, and you aren't really getting anything in return for not wearing armor.
You could layer Hedge Witch from Ultimate Magic with Hex Channeler and get the ability to cast cure spells spontaneously as well as divert your comrades' afflictions if needed. Hedge Witch replaces your 4th and 8th level hexes.
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)
|
The Hedge Witch Archetype (from Ultimate Magic) is also worth noting, having spontaneous healing as it does.
Really, a Witch with either that, Hex Channeler, or both and the Healing Patron seems the definitive way to do this trick. You can be both one of the best healers in the game and effective offensively to boot, with some effort.
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)
I don't understand. Isn't channeling great for healing?
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)I don't understand. Isn't channeling great for healing?
It may be at the low levels. Higher up using channeling is just saving spell slots or wand charges if you use that trick, and most Does it seem. If you help end the combat, with a slumber hex or evangalist performance or whatever, you May not need healing.
Healing is to me a bit boring and the minigame of keeping the party fully healed is no fun in any PF game i have played in.|
|
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)I don't understand. Isn't channeling great for healing?It may be at the low levels. Higher up using channeling is just saving spell slots or wand charges if you use that trick, and most Does it seem. If you help end the combat, with a slumber hex or evangalist performance or whatever, you May not need healing.
Healing is to me a bit boring and the minigame of keeping the party fully healed is no fun in any PF game i have played in.
Channeling has the advantage that, with a Feat, you can do it as a Move Action, enabling you to do it on top of a spell of your choice (and a Quickened one, if high enough level that that's relevant).
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)
Selective Channeling is the most efficient method of keeping a party alive. Unless your DM has you fighting in narrow corridors, there's no way to restrict incoming damage to one person, and in most situations you're best off spreading the damage among several front-liners. Moreover, channeling works at a distance, and it doubles as a (again, very efficient) way to deal with crowds of low-level undead.
Oh, i see what your saying Cpt. Darling.
However, while your point is valid and sincerely taken into consideration, this is a thread about creating an unarmord healer.
(I really do see what you're getting at.)
The Hedge Witch Archetype (from Ultimate Magic) is also worth noting, having spontaneous healing as it does.
Really, a Witch with either that, Hex Channeler, or both and the Healing Patron seems the definitive way to do this trick. You can be both one of the best healers in the game and effective offensively to boot, with some effort.
Ah, good idea! I'd forgotten about the Hedge Witch. I'm not even sure you really need the Healing Patron, since Hedge Witch lets you spontaneously cast Cure spells without actually knowing them, though obviously it's nice to have the other healing spells.
I also forgot to mention that the White Mage gets a nice group Fast Healing buff at 11th level
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)Selective Channeling is the most efficient method of keeping a party alive. Unless your DM has you fighting in narrow corridors, there's no way to restrict incoming damage to one person, and in most situations you're best off spreading the damage among several front-liners. Moreover, channeling works at a distance, and it doubles as a (again, very efficient) way to deal with crowds of low-level undead.
That May be but if your baddies do damage that Can be fixed with 1d6 pr 2 levels then i am sure you Can kill them before any body dies on Team hero. And if every body helps end the figth it ends faster. But if you Can make the mini game work for you, then great.
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)Selective Channeling is the most efficient method of keeping a party alive. Unless your DM has you fighting in narrow corridors, there's no way to restrict incoming damage to one person, and in most situations you're best off spreading the damage among several front-liners. Moreover, channeling works at a distance, and it doubles as a (again, very efficient) way to deal with crowds of low-level undead.
It's not very efficient at all at high levels. Or even most levels.
You get only a few of them a day (maybe 5) and they generally heal less than the given Cure spell at most levels above around 5.
Once Heal comes into play especially you're looking at 110 points flat to one guy, versus 21 damage healed to a bunch of dudes. AKA about half a whack from a CR 11/12 creature.
Before that, you have Breath of Life at 9th, doing 5d8+9 healing versus your 5d6 Channel, with the added bonus that it can bring dudes back to life after they die.
Likewise before that, Cure Critical doing 4d8+7 versus a 4d6 Channel. On and on, back to Cure Light being 1d8+1 vs 1d6.
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.
Healing one guy to full (or closer to full) is better than healing multiple guys for less than the monster's average damage. Channel is just very weak healing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That May be but if your baddies do damage that Can be fixed with 1d6 pr 2 levels then i am sure you Can kill them before any body dies on Team hero. And if every body helps end the figth it ends faster. But if you Can make the mini game work for you, then great.I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)Selective Channeling is the most efficient method of keeping a party alive. Unless your DM has you fighting in narrow corridors, there's no way to restrict incoming damage to one person, and in most situations you're best off spreading the damage among several front-liners. Moreover, channeling works at a distance, and it doubles as a (again, very efficient) way to deal with crowds of low-level undead.
1d6/2 levels is pretty good compared to 1d8+level/2 levels (the Cure spell series) when you consider how much more often you can channel versus cast Cure Light Wounds. Even if you only use it outside of combat, Channeling is more efficient at healing groups, and lets you save your spell slots for buffs, remove curse, and attack spells.
You're not alone, of course; I've seen a lot of people turn up their nose and in-combat healing, as as long as you're facing down fairly safe encounters that give you adequate time to buff ahead of time, I suppose that can work.
I've been in plenty of PFS scenarios where we were dealing with surprise attacks that drastically dropped everyone's HP, and/or were surrounded by a large number of creatures. Now obviously, if you have AOE damage, then it's clearly the better tactical choice there, but if not, keeping all of your friendlies in positive HP, even if it costs you a Standard Action, can mean the difference between success and failure. Channeling is how Clerics can carry a lower-level party through the decision to "play up" a tier in PFS, at least in my experience.
And again, the fact that it doubles as an AOE attack vs undead hordes (again, a common encounter in Paizo adventures) makes it one of the more important things that Clerics do, IMO.
If channeling is gonna be the thing, i like a Half elf oracle of life with the elf FCB on the channeling. He Can wear a breastplate plate but with a trait and a breastplate plate i. Mithral he wont notice.
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.
So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?
Healing one guy to full (or closer to full) is better than healing multiple guys for less than the monster's average damage. Channel is just very weak healing.
Assuming that you have one guy nearly dead and the rest just lightly wounded, you are correct; that's what's nice about being a cleric: you have the choice. But in a situation where you have a lot of moderately hurt people, with some of your squishies hanging around the level where they can be one-shotted, Channeling is a better option.
You're comparing channeling to spellcasting on single-target healing, which isn't what channeling is for. It's for group healing. At low levels, it's what keeps 1st level parties alive until they can afford a wand of Cure Light Wounds. And once they have the wand, it's what keeps them from burning through their wands every other adventure. Low-level adventurers can't really afford to enter combat at less than full HP, because they're never more than one critical hit away from negative HP.
Channeling is Nice to have if you like some classes gets it for free. And some of the things that channeling Can do is worth using feats on. But healing is not one of these things. At least not in games i have seen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If channeling is gonna be the thing, i like a Half elf oracle of life with the elf FCB on the channeling. He Can wear a breastplate plate but with a trait and a breastplate plate i. Mithral he wont notice.
If he's wearing a breastplate, then he isn't unarmored, and this is a thread about unarmored healers.
And channeling isn't a requirement; I was just answering the question of why channeling is a useful healing tool. It's a source of healing; someone who can cast Cure spells *and* channel (like a Hex Channeler) is going to have more overall healing per day than someone who can only cast Cure spells (like a White Mage).
That said, I think the White Mage might be a bit more interesting, since Arcanists have more offensive spell options than Witches do. I suspect the Hex Channeler/Hedge Witch will do a better job at healing though, and would be more suited to a party where they were the sole source of healing. White Mage would be fine in a party with a Divine caster though (perhaps an offensively-minded Oracle, like a Flame or Metal Oracle?)
|
|
Channeling is Nice to have if you like some classes gets it for free. And some of the things that channeling Can do is worth using feats on. But healing is not one of these things. At least not in games i have seen.
It is with Quick Channel. You don't have to choose between healing spells and Channel Energy, you can use both in the same turn. :)
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?
Two more points of healing to one person, with one of your LOWER LEVEL SLOTS.
You're getting more bang for what is essentially a lower level ability. At least Lay on Hands and Channel have the decency to be the same dice and whatnot.
It's even worse as an AoE against anything that's a threat.
Just because it's decent at 1st level doesn't mean it's the same at 11th.
It shines more when combined with life link since you are splitting up the damage over multiple members of the party.
I'm a fan of grabbing quicken channel for later levels since it allows a quick burst at a greater cost while you can still toss off spells as needed.
Back to the OP question of is there a "White Mage" option? IMO There's not really a good equivalent within the game, because there's not a good rapid healing option combined with other actions. Anyone that can Channel Energy can get Selective Channel & Channel as a move action. That's pretty much the best way to achieve it, but you don't get any extra spellcasting options or benefits for taking this route.
Cleric - can be a front liner or support character - but the archetypes that trade away armor proficiency don't offer much over the standard cleric regarding action economy healing. You're still looking at Channel Energy as a move with Selective Channel as your main option. It allows spell casting plus healing, but no extra benefit if you want to trade away the armor.
Oracle - clearly a support character. Life Oracle has Life Link, but doesn't have a way other than Channeling to do a healing action plus a spell action in the round (other than above).
Paladin - front liner, has swift healing via self lay on hands, but not a white mage at all.
Oradin - here you can get swift action heals with Lay on Hands combined with Life Link from Life Oracle, but your very narrow focus is (1) super healing engine & (2) armed combat. No White Mage here.
Witch - definitely support, but no swift healing.
There might be a niche for a 3rd party publisher class, but they'd have to be pretty careful to balance pros & cons of allowing healing ability use or spell casting together with non-healing spell casting in the same round.
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?Two more points of healing to one person, with one of your LOWER LEVEL SLOTS.
You're getting more bang for what is essentially a lower level ability. At least Lay on Hands and Channel have the decency to be the same dice and whatnot.
It's even worse as an AoE against anything that's a threat.
Just because it's decent at 1st level doesn't mean it's the same at 11th.
23 points of healing to one person is not "more bang" than 21 points of healing to 6+ people. That's just bad math, man.
The main knock on using it offensively at higher levels is that intelligent undead are likely to make their saving throws. But at higher levels, that's not what it's for. It's for clearing out hordes of mindless undead quickly and without spending resources (i.e. spell slots) that can be put to better use. Making good use of channeling means that you have more spell slots for doing other stuff.
But we're well off topic here. Any ideas for making a better unarmored healer? What do people think of the Life Wizard Subschool? A White Mage could stack the School Savant Archetype to gain access to it; this would also give them an extra spell slot that they could convert into a Cure spell.
It was just an easy example, man. The spells you get at the same level do roughly TWICE the healing Channel does. Many many more times the number in the case of Heal.
Likewise I don't consider "It can wipe out some small fry quickly" a big selling point. Essentially all it does is shortcut the number of rounds it takes you to wade into combat and smack things with a mace, killing them in one shot, while they flail at you and hope for 20's that deal roughly 3% of your HP in damage.
One downside I forgot about with the White Mage Arcanist: they can't use Cure Wands, because while they can spontaneously cast Cure Spells, they don't get to add the Cure spells to their spell lists.
Witches may not be the best in combat healers, but hex vulnerability combined with healing hexes is great out of combat healing.
The thing about channel healing six instead of one is that often you don't need to heal up much more than one or two.
You can add unlettered archetype to your arcanist to get healing spells on your list but you lose spells too.
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?Two more points of healing to one person, with one of your LOWER LEVEL SLOTS.
You're getting more bang for what is essentially a lower level ability. At least Lay on Hands and Channel have the decency to be the same dice and whatnot.
It's even worse as an AoE against anything that's a threat.
Just because it's decent at 1st level doesn't mean it's the same at 11th.
23 points of healing to one person is not "more bang" than 21 points of healing to 6+ people. That's just bad math, man.
The main knock on using it offensively at higher levels is that intelligent undead are likely to make their saving throws. But at higher levels, that's not what it's for. It's for clearing out hordes of mindless undead quickly and without spending resources (i.e. spell slots) that can be put to better use. Making good use of channeling means that you have more spell slots for doing other stuff.
But we're well off topic here. Any ideas for making a better unarmored healer? What do people think of the Life Wizard Subschool? A White Mage could stack the School Savant Archetype to gain access to it; this would also give them an extra spell slot that they could convert into a Cure spell.
Apparently I'm an idiot: you can't stack School Savant and White Mage, since they both replace the 1st level Exploit. You could, however, stack Eldritch Font and White Mage and gain an extra spell slot at each level, at the cost of a prepared spell, but I don't think it would be worth it.
|
Evil casters have one more option, not like it is the greatest, but infernal healing and infernal healing greater, gives fast healing 1 and fast healing 4 respectively which is pretty nice. It makes them good for healing out of combat rather easily while still packing the power level of the Wizard spell list.
You don't have to be evil to cast Infernal Healing, but it's a pretty poor way to save someone's life.
|
Likewise I don't consider "It can wipe out some small fry quickly" a big selling point [for channeling]
While I agree it's not a big selling point, especially if you play pre-packaged adventures as they are written, I recently observed a 16th level positive channeler PC save a 16th level party from TPK by channeling positive energy to harm undead. The PCs were caught in a terrible ambush. They had teleported into a (deliberately set up to receive them) nest of shadows. Hundreds of them, swarming all around all the PCs. There were also a couple dozen other foes with individual CR 12 to CR 20. It was all of Karzoug's best minions, plus the best magical assassins unlimited funds can buy, plus hordes of undead and summoned creatures, everything buffed to the max, plus a carefully planned killing field. The ambush started with all the PCs being hit by 6 pre-drawn Symbol spells of 6th to 9th level. All told, it was at least a CR28 encounter. It was specifically engineered to TPK this particular 16th level party. It nearly succeeded.
While a Shadow is only CR3, it's possible for at least 10 of them to surround and attack one PC (using space above!). They attack Touch AC, so they'll not need a 20 to hit most high level PCs. They target STR, not HP. The positive channeler was at STR 2 when his channel destroyed all shadows in 30'. This bought just enough time for most of the PCs to escape. The positive channeler was slain by shadows and soon turned into one, but they got his corpse away and may decide to patch him up.
Note that the positive channeler had some high level divine spells that he'd have preferred to cast, but he knew that multiple foes had readied actions to disrupt any attempt to cast a spell. Channeling is SU and can not be interrupted.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They don't, really, serve different purposes. Both serve the purpose of damage control.
Cure spells, pound for pound, do it better, except in the rare scenario where multiple people are hurt, but not very hurt, and you have nothing better to do but heal them, instead of making whatever is hurting them die faster, so that heavy injuries never show up in the first place.
If you're in a scenario where multiple people are gravely injured, Channel does too little healing to be worthwhile.
If you're in a scenario where everyone has just scratches, there's no point in healing them.
Channel is basically only good as a 3+ times per day save off the CLW wand.
It was just an easy example, man. The spells you get at the same level do roughly TWICE the healing Channel does. Many many more times the number in the case of Heal.The mistake you're making is comparing Channeling to the single person Cure spells of equivalent level. The comparison you should be making is between Channeling and the group Cure spells of equivalent level.
They (Channeling and single target Cure spells) serve different purposes, and conflating them creates a fallacious argument.
I Think you will find, that unless your combats drag out, and the badguys are civil and dont try to kill one before starting on the next, channeling wont be great enough to spend feats on if healing is what you plan to use it for.
I Can see the joy of spending a move action and 2 channels with Quick Channel, but unless it is very special circumstances i doubt it Will be worth it.
The only point that proves is that Fateful Channel is pretty rockin'.
Not just Channel though.
You're welcome to check out the rest of Inner Sea Gods and see how the feats stack up.
Are this saying that channeling is strong healing? Or that channeling have other uses if you sink feats in to it?
That it is NOT only good as a 3+ per day save of a CLW.
If you take feats for it then I agree as there are some awesome channeling feats, but note that the healing/damage aspect of the channel is fairly inconsequential compared to the added effects... which leads back to it being on par with CLW if you don't invest feats.
That it is NOT only good as a 3+ per day save of a CLW.
But what is your stance in the "it is great healing vs. It is not so great for healing" or "it is great for healingvs. Healing is not that great" discussions that is the theme here?
Must be my bias from playing a Life Oracle and Holy Vindicator then.
Life Oracles benefit more from channel healing because they can distribute damage better with Life Link. If all channel users had Life Link, then people would probably think more highly of channel healing.
What about Cleric with a single level in Sensei Monk to showcase White Mage's time spent with Black Belt? (Pulling mostly from 8-Bit there, of course). Wisdom to AC when unarmored, inspire courage like a Bard, and all your Cleric-y goodness, only offset by a level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What about Cleric with a single level in Sensei Monk to showcase White Mage's time spent with Black Belt? (Pulling mostly from 8-Bit there, of course). Wisdom to AC when unarmored, inspire courage like a Bard, and all your Cleric-y goodness, only offset by a level.
I suggestet this with evangalist cleric and any monk (pehaps flowering) a bit up thread that will let the inspire curage evolve with levels.
|
That it is NOT only good as a 3+ per day save of a CLW.But what is your stance in the "it is great healing vs. It is not so great for healing" or "it is great for healingvs. Healing is not that great" discussions that is the theme here?
When did I ever direct my answers to the overall discussion rather than Rynjin specifically?
When did I ever direct my answers to the overall discussion rather than Rynjin specifically?That it is NOT only good as a 3+ per day save of a CLW.But what is your stance in the "it is great healing vs. It is not so great for healing" or "it is great for healingvs. Healing is not that great" discussions that is the theme here?
It seems the extensive dossier I have on you did not mention that you have only ever, in all threads, been speaking specifically to Rynjin and never about the overall discussion.
That is a rather large oversight in my files that needs to be corrected.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My mystic theurge is a good unarmored healer. Reach spells, spectral hand, deathwatch -》status, and bardic abilities all complement each other.
He is not designed to be the best at X. More to fill often missing elements in a party.
Cleric 2 Sorc 1 MT 5 (Tiefling- rakshasa) Evangelist - Trickery domain
Drawback no channeling.