Warhammer Musket...

[Murdock Mudeater]

When using as a warhammer, does this count as a warhammer with regards to feats, fighter weapon groups, required weapon proficiency and so forth?

Does the Warhammer Musket use it's own weapon focus, or do I take weapon focus (Musket) and Weapon Focus (Warhammer) separately?

For that matter, can the Warhammer Musket be wielded in one hand when used as a Warhammer, due to warhammers being one handed weapons, or does it still require two hands as per the two handed Warhammer Musket profile...?

In particular, looking into a fighter that sometimes shoots, but mostly uses it as a warhammer. Seems like a great way to get a ranged weapon for a fighter that doesn't require dropping up the weapon you already have equipped.

[ElementalXX]

Yeah the double weapon guns puzzles me to no end, by raw they are only ranged weapons so melee feats dont apply, the warhammer would only counts as melee for enchantments. Dm may rule otherwise, i think is sensible enough

[boring7]

In theory it's a warhammer that you can shoot a bullet out of once per combat (because of inordinate reload times). In practice it becomes a mess since it has a bunch of conflicting rules and vague terms.

Personally, I'd go with "is musket for gun/ranged abilities and warhammer for bludgeoning/melee abilities." Even if you're an uber-twinked Gunslinger/something else/something else character it's unlikely to beat a "regular" build.

[blackbloodtroll]

Warhammer Musket, Axe Musket, Dagger Pistol, and Sword cane pistol are all odd ducks.

No FAQ has been put out about any of them.

[Murdock Mudeater]

boring7 wrote:

Personally, I'd go with "is musket for gun/ranged abilities and warhammer for bludgeoning/melee abilities."

Yeah, I think that is the correct route. By that logic, it's a 1-handed melee weapon or a two handed ranged weapon.

Though there are rules for firing a two handed firearm with a single hand, so even that shouldn't be an issue.

You think specific weapon feats (like weapon focus) and such are separate for the warhammer and the musket? I'm thinking It would make sense to keep them separate.

[DarkPhoenixx]

Quote:

Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.

Not sure what to make out of it, but whoever wrote this considered musket and axe musket as separate weapons.

[boring7]

DarkPhoenixx wrote:

Quote:

Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.

Not sure what to make out of it, but whoever wrote this considered musket and axe musket as separate weapons.

As you imply, that still doesn't answer the question of whether weapon focus: Axe Musket gives you a +1 on both ranged attacks and melee attacks with it.

The Gunslinger's pistol-whip ability says that the enchantments work on both sides, but says nothing about feats. Intent is hard to gauge since the design team pretty clearly doesn't like the guns-in-fantasy hassle. Going with the presumption that an Axe-Musket was supposed to be a melee weapon that you could make a single free ranged attack with suggests that a feat would double-dip (because who cares about a single +1 to hit once per combat?).

[Murdock Mudeater]

boring7 wrote:

(because who cares about a single +1 to hit once per combat?).

It matters for things like the weapon master fighter.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

I would say Weapon Focus (Warhammer Musket) would apply to ranged and melee attacks. I would also allow Weapon Focus (Musket) to apply to the ranged attacks (but not allow both to stack, obviously) and Weapon Focus (Warhammer) to apply to melee attacks.

(Although, you should go Axe Musket so you cover B/P/S damage all at once. Well, one weapon at least.)

[HenshinFanatic]

I believe Durngrun Stonebreaker has the right of it. Though the "double-weapon" firearms are a pain since they're +600 gp to make masterwork and you have to enchant each "end" separately further adding to the cost.

Second the suggestion for the musket axe if you have to go with the official ones. I think there are a few home-brewed firearms with a similar format, though I'm somewhat partial to my own *cough*shamelessplug*cough*.

[blackbloodtroll]

Would one be able to choose Slashing Grace for the melee portion of any of these melee firearms?

If so, what would be the selection for Weapon Focus?

[boring7]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Would one be able to choose Slashing Grace for the melee portion of any of these melee firearms?

If so, what would be the selection for Weapon Focus?

Yes, and whichever focus gave a +1 to your melee attacks with it.

Arguably it's all "more powerful than a regular weapon" but it's only useful to a martial-focus character and guns still pretty much suck as ranged weapons. Even if you let the Musket Master's special apply to the Warhammer Musket and do dex-to-damage with it, you're getting pretty lousy mediocre damage on a double-price weapon that has a 30 foot range increment.

[blackbloodtroll]

Does Weapon Focus(Axe Musket) apply to melee attacks?

Would count as a melee weapon, for the purposes of feats, abilities, and enchantments?

Would it be considered a two-handed, or one-handed melee weapon?

[boring7]

According to rules I'm making up on the fly?

Weapon focus (axe Musket) applies to melee and ranged attacks.

It counts as both, but the "___-Only" enchantments, feats, and abilities deactivate and don't function when it is being used as the other type. If you are holding it as an axe you threaten, if you are holding it as a ranged weapon you don't, and you can switch between the two as a free action but not an immediate action.

It is a one-handed melee weapon.

Yes, presumably you could abuse this with some kind of swashbuckler-dancing-fencing-shooting crazy person that I can't foresee who gets all the points because of rules exploits. Unless it starts winning the DPR olympics against AM Barbarian or casting/fighting/surviving like a Synthesist/BGD summoner who is also a Scarred Witch Doctor I don't think I mind all that much.

[ElementalXX]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Would one be able to choose Slashing Grace for the melee portion of any of these melee firearms?

If so, what would be the selection for Weapon Focus?

actually the weapon category is ranged so they are ineligeble for slashing grace. It makes a fine houserule however

[Murdock Mudeater]

On subject, can a player untrained in this weapon, but trained in martial weapons, use it as the martial weapon that a warhammer is?

[ElementalXX]

By raw they are different weapons so you would take normal penalties for profienciency. At this point lets assume everything i say ends with "this coulod be houseruled tought"

[boring7]

Arguably the weight/balance and weirdness of the rifle part make the warhammer too different for regular warhammer training to apply. Like a mercurial greatswo-oh those don't exist anymore. Like a repeating crossbow compared to a regular heavy crossbow?

[Murdock Mudeater]

boring7 wrote:

Arguably the weight/balance and weirdness of the rifle part make the warhammer too different for regular warhammer training to apply. Like a mercurial greatswo-oh those don't exist anymore. Like a repeating crossbow compared to a regular heavy crossbow?

I suppose, but then the issue is that Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) actually covers more melee weapons than The Weapon Proficiency Martial feat will grant (yeah, only one martial weapon per feat).

Seems rather counter intuitive.

[HenshinFanatic]

As I recall, each of the weapons say they can be used as a specific martial melee weapon so yes, you should be able to use an axe musket as though it were a battleaxe for all purposes. Remember though, you have to enchant the axe musket's firearm component separately from its battleaxe component. Per the line:

Ultimate Combat wrote:

It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken.

[Murdock Mudeater]

HenshinFanatic wrote:

As I recall, each of the weapons say they can be used as a specific martial melee weapon so yes, you should be able to use an axe musket as though it were a battleaxe for all purposes. Remember though, you have to enchant the axe musket's firearm component separately from its battleaxe component. Per the line:

So by this logic, if you aren't trained in martial weapons, are you untrained when using the warhammer portion of this weapon?

[HenshinFanatic]

I'd say it's a good bet that that's how it works. A particularly stringent GM might extend this so that Weapon Focus (Warhammer Musket) only provides the bonus on ranged attacks with the firearm; requiring a separate instance of Weapon Focus (Warhammer) to work with melee attacks. I wouldn't because that's just forcing even more feat tax on the person that wants to use one of these (in no way overpowered) weapons.