Hi all, just wanted to get some thoughts from players more experienced than me.
I'm just getting into Pathfinder and I really like the Paladin class. I opted to go with the archetype Warrior of the Holy Light because it had a good ring to it, and I liked the description.
But when I looked through the features I found the changes really lacking, and thought the archetype as a whole a bit of a missed opportunity. So I've been looking at a few ways to improve the archetype and dig it further into the niche I feel it should've filled.
I should also add that my GM has approved the following changes already (with the caveat that we revisit them if things get out of hand), but he is somewhat inexperienced too - and while I want to make the class more interesting I don't want to screw him over with something crazily overpowered. So any advice would be appreciated.
Below is what I have changed so far.
---------------------------------
The bit about spellcasting and additional lay on hands is unchanged, the first changed paragraph is..
A warrior of the holy light can choose to spend uses of her lay on hands ability to draw on the power of her faith as a standard action. Using lay on hands in this way causes a nimbus of light to emanate from the paladin in a 30-foot radius.
All allies in this area (including the paladin) receive a +1 morale bonus per use of lay on hands expended (maximum bonus equal to 1/2 the paladin's level) to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws against fear as long as they remain in the area of light. This power lasts for 1 minute.
The effects gained at 8th, 12th and 16th levels are all untouched.
The effect gained at 20th level is changed to be:At 20th level, the nimbus of light extends to a range of 60 feet. In addition, all of its bonuses increase. The morale bonus to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear increases to +2 per use of lay on hands expended. The amount of ability damage healed increases to 2d4. The energy resistance increases to 20 against one energy type. Finally, protection against critical hits increases to 50%.
So the main change here is that you can now choose to spend multiple uses of your lay on hands to increase the modifier given to allies. This bonus is capped at half your paladin level, so at level 20 the maximum bonus you could give allies is +10. This is in addition to all the other effects.
New archetype feature #1
At 4th level, a warrior of the holy light can channel energy through her holy symbol to release a wave of holy energy in a 20-foot radius centered on the paladin. This area is considered consecrated for 1 minute/level. Using this ability consumes two uses of the paladin's lay on hands ability.
Undead creatures caught within the wave are damaged for 1d6 points of damage plus an additional 1d6 for every two paladin levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from consecration receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.
Before using this ability, the paladin can choose to spend an additional use of her lay on hands ability to heal all living creatures within 20ft for half of the damage dealt to undead. Creatures healed in this way cannot exceed their maximum hit point total, and all excess healing is lost.
Consecration counters but does not dispel desecrate. A warrior of the holy light must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.
This ability replaces channel positive energy.
After seeing Dazzling Light, I thought about what purpose a Warrior of the Holy Light really had with Channel Positive Energy.. I mean essentially it just looked to be the same thing. I know the benefits are different but, as a spell... You ultimately have 2 abilities that cause a 30 foot burst of holy energy. Now, as an archetype with limited tricks (spells) at his/her disposal, I think that's a little lacking in imagination!
So, the idea here was to (again) remove a bit of healing output from the Paladin, and bring a bit more focus into combat utility. The side-effect consecration I think fits nicely in with this idea.
Bringing the range down to 20ft (which also brings the effect in line with consecrate as a spell), means that Dazzling Light will appear just that little more different as a tool you have as a warrior of the holy light.
And the whole utilising an extra point of lay on hands for the healing component I think drives home the archetype description, that these paladins are rewarded power through patience and faith.
New archetype feature #2
At 6th level, a warrior of the holy light can channel radiant energy through her weapon as a swift action. Before making a melee attack roll, the paladin can choose to spend 2 uses of her lay on hands ability to deal an additional 1d6 damage per 2 paladin levels to evil creatures.
At 12th level, the paladin's weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
At 18th level, the affected creature must make a will save or be dazed for 1 round. The DC for this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's charisma modifier.
Creatures slain with this ability shine with radiant light and disintegrate into ash as if burned with fire. If the paladin's attack misses, the lay on hands uses are expended with no effect. This damage comes from holy power and is not subject to damage reduction, energy immunities, or energy resistances.
This ability replaces the paladin's mercies gained at 6th, 12th and 18th levels, and does not stack with the Channel Smite feat.
Less healing utility, more flashy hits. I didn't understand the replacement of good aligned weapons, which is why I wrote this feature back in at 12th level. You are a WARRIOR of the Holy Light, after all..
And just for clarity I left Dazzling Light unchanged.
---------------------------------
So that's about it.
Would like to see what you guys think, have I gone too far? Are these good additions but just need some tweaking to be balanced?
I'm interested to know, as it's what I'll be playing soon!
First of all, an archetype that replaces spellcasting should introduce new abilities that offer versatility and let you do stuff that can't be done normally. In my opinion, the WotHL fails to achieve this.
Unfortunately, your version isn't very inspiring either. You put a lot of focus on combat features, while this class is actually about inspiring others to do the right thing and discover their own potential. If I were to rewrite this archetype, I'd make it more like a divine version of the Battle Herald.
That being said, a few comments on your version:
- Power of faith is way too strong (your WotHL is a better group buffer than the bard!)
- The paladin already has a holy strike. It is called smite evil, and it is a very powerful option.
I would not allow this as a GM (it makes the paladin even better in areas in which he is already formidable) nor would I want to use this as a player (for the same reason, because it is too specialized).
Hi Amanuensis, thanks for the feedback :)
Sorry to hear you didn't like my version so much! It seems like we're designing different archetypes, though. A divine version of the battle herald sounds to me like it would end up being the Holy Tactician.
Anyway, semantics aside! Back to this guy!
I focused on combat features because I felt the archetype was about being a holy warrior, and without spells combat is where he needs to excel and inspire his allies.
I can see what you mean about Power of Faith being strong, but you need to remember that as a pally with this archetype my only resource is lay on hands, if I blow through all of that I'm at a severe disadvantage. At level 10 I have 8 charges of lay on hands, to get the full bonus I would have to blow over half of my daily allowance of core power, leaving me with only 3 charges to do other things like heal wounds.
The part of the archetype description I'm trying to hit home here is: "Unleashing this power takes patience and comes at a steep price."
Blowing all of my holy power to make my party imba for 1 minute is just one of the ways I could use this ability. But what'd be much more likely is I give +1 or maybe +2, and manage my daily power, because who knows what else I might need it for that day.
The multiple abilities that utilise the resource means I have to make important decisions about what I want to use it on in combat. It was my attempt at diversifying the abilities and keeping the class interesting and challenging to play.
I think he has a point about the bonuses being too steep, because not every adventuring day lasts 4 encounters. If yours takes two, at level twenty you're giving the party +20 to all stats, healing a ton of ability damage and giving 50% fortification for 1 minute. That's ABSOLUTELY INSANE, and deserves attention.
If I were you, I'd stop looking at the numbers and focus on the utility.
Ideas:
Spending lay on hands during melee attacks to inflict status with nimbus.
Spending lay on hands to cause nimbus to force concentration checks.
Spending lay on hands to activate predetermined spell-like abilities (probably buffs).
etc etc
We have had a Warrior of the Holy Light in our campaign (our team leader even) for many years now. The way we fixed his archetype to be playable is to expand all the paladin-ish stuff by a lot. :P
Lay on Hands is equal to his level + Charisma modifier (instead of +1 at 4th and 8th level).
A Mercy is learned every level instead of every 3rd (not number of uses, just more access, which sounds big, but how often is an E8 under the affects of more than one effect?)
And most importantly, he gets both Divine Bonds as if his level were 3 higher than it is. So, as an E8 character, he gets +3 to his weapon and a Celestial Template on his mount.
With these mods, he's been happy in that archetype.
That being said, I like your additional mods to the Holy Light (in particular the 4th and 6th level ones since we are E8 players). Your 6th level one lets someone take the mount without losing the Divine Bond of a weapon, which is good. :)
What I meant when I mentioned the battle herald is that a class that gives up spells should gain some exciting new features (the skirmisher ranger would be another example). In my opinion, a well-designed class/archetype offers a lot of new options instead of limiting them. Like NerfPlz says, adding some utility features would be a good start.
Ressource management is not a good way to balance this class. If you have a limited ressource, you are going to hold onto it until you really need it (The big encounter with CR >= APL + 2). Also, in an encounter with average difficulty, you are not going to blow a standard action just to get a +1 bonus.
The concept of gaining power through patience is impossible to implement mechanically if you want to keep the game balanced. There really is no incentive not to blow all your LoH uses to trivialize a tough fight (maybe except the fact that it is a powerful source for healing yourself in combat). Also, you can expect that smart WotHL will spend half their feats on extra lay on hands. Why does the WotHL need to spend LoH to use his abilities at all? After all, spells (the replaced feature) use a different currency (spell slots).
I know I repeat myself, but I can tell from own experience that the core paladin is already really really good at killing evil stuff. It manages to fill the role of the holy warrior quite well.
The thing is, Amanuensis, if I may... not everybody plays or sees the game as you do. The WotHL appealed heavily to our guy because he wanted a smaller sheet, fewer rules, etc... and removing spells was a great way to accomplish that. WotHL was not, in my humble opinion, about creating a equally powerful or interesting class as a regular Paladin. It was to make a more rules-friendly archetype that allowed the ever lovable Paladin to be played by those that focus more heavily on the "role" aspect of gaming.
While I agree that there was a great window here for a new set of features... that's not what I think people who are attracted to this archetype are interested in. They just want to have a bit fewer options and likely less MAD in the process.
Now, personally, I think Paizo figured the lower MAD was the balancing point in this archetype. With the bump to LoH, a low Cha character was very possible that still held the Holy theme that those interested in a Paladin like. He's got some power, and the highest Str in our group as well as a very Solid Con and just mediocre Charisma.
This is why I like Ryluin's (and our own) versions of the Archetype. Paizo went a bit under-whelming in balancing the low MAD class, and the easiest way to "fix" it is a rules-light modification of existing rules.
I'm not saying your idea isn't great, of allowing a new and more extensive set of features. I love the idea... I just don't think it's for the WotHL, and the people it appeals to.
The thing is, Amanuensis, if I may... not everybody plays or sees the game as you do.
I would most certainly hope so, otherwise this would be a very boring place!
The WotHL appealed heavily to our guy because he wanted a smaller sheet, fewer rules, etc... and removing spells was a great way to accomplish that.
If that is the case, fine (though in my opinion, the paladin is rather straight-forward to play (at least concerning the rules), even for a beginner).
WotHL was not, in my humble opinion, about creating a equally powerful or interesting class as a regular Paladin. It was to make a more rules-friendly archetype that allowed the ever lovable Paladin to be played by those that focus more heavily on the "role" aspect of gaming.
I don't think in these categories (roll players vs. role players). However, I feel it is important to point out that a lot of the changes proposed here have a big effect on the "roll" aspect of gaming (as you call it) and are potentially imbalancing factors.
Now, personally, I think Paizo figured the lower MAD was the balancing point in this archetype. With the bump to LoH, a low Cha character was very possible that still held the Holy theme that those interested in a Paladin like. He's got some power, and the highest Str in our group as well as a very Solid Con and just mediocre Charisma.
I don't consider the paladin to be very MAD. While most guides recommend a balanced approach, you can build an effective vanilla paladin that focuses more on strength than charisma.
But more importantly, if you consider the paladin to be MAD, how does this archetype change anything about that? You still want to have a decent CHA as a WotHL, no? Especially since the "role" aspect is all aboutthe holy light that shines within their souls
Dont confuse me for a roll vs role cataloging sort of player here. Especially since I am more the roll type anyhows. :P
Nor am I suggesting less roll but a fewer mechanics, smaller sheet. Each spell tends to be its own mechanic, but more importantly, its own tactic. The book keeping of a spell list and selection was the primary deterrent of what would otherwise have been a Holy Cavelier or Fighter. Our just changing the number of LoHs, Mercies, etc... These additions are just so he doesnt feel screwed about having dumped spells. Before the archetype came out, his Paladin was pretty much just taking a single spell from each level and ignoring the rest.
Point being, this mechanic light archetype is good for that. Few times a day he can generate his light, heal us up a bit, etc... Plus he didnt have to weigh things like which Divine Bond to get, since both fit his theme... Win win.
I think he has a point about the bonuses being too steep, because not every adventuring day lasts 4 encounters. If yours takes two, at level twenty you're giving the party +20 to all stats, healing a ton of ability damage and giving 50% fortification for 1 minute. That's ABSOLUTELY INSANE, and deserves attention.
If I were you, I'd stop looking at the numbers and focus on the utility.
Ideas:
Spending lay on hands during melee attacks to inflict status with nimbus.
Spending lay on hands to cause nimbus to force concentration checks.
Spending lay on hands to activate predetermined spell-like abilities (probably buffs).etc etc
Hi NerfPlz, thanks for the feedback. :)
I like the ideas too, I'll look into those.Though I just wanted to quickly mention that my rules of power of faith don't allow you to provide a bonus higher than half your paladin level, so you could never give +20, even at level 20. The maximum you could ever give is +10, and that's if you spend a lot of your resources to do so.
And I would say it's GM's discretion as to what situations you are able to get those bonuses. Like I shouldn't be able to semi-metagame and say "oh well, I haven't used all my charges today so I'll give my party +7 in this evening pub brawl." No.. what'd likely happen is the GM denies it and says my deity doesn't support the action, and I lose the charges with no effect for bad play.
I'm happy to tone down the bonuses if it starts to be really overpowered but I don't think I'm looking at the numbers as much as you guys make me out to be!
Ressource management is not a good way to balance this class. If you have a limited ressource, you are going to hold onto it until you really need it (The big encounter with CR >= APL + 2). Also, in an encounter with average difficulty, you are not going to blow a standard action just to get a +1 bonus.
Yes! That's exactly where the patience comes in, and the importance of managing your power to get you through each day. As Sphynx said, I think we are 2 very different players :)
The concept of gaining power through patience is impossible to implement mechanically if you want to keep the game balanced. There really is no incentive not to blow all your LoH uses to trivialize a tough fight (maybe except the fact that it is a powerful source for healing yourself in combat).
How is it impossible to implement? Everything this archetype has is up in my original post above. He has no other spells.. What situations are you thinking of that are impossible to balance? Chances are those same situations would be unbalanced for a lot of other classes too, and for people who spend a lot of time optimising and min-maxing those classes.
Also, you can expect that smart WotHL will spend half their feats on extra lay on hands.Is that smart though? Or is that min-maxing? Not everyone would play the game like that. I would much rather take it a couple of times because it compliments the archetype's playstyle, and then continue to get other feats because they flesh out the character.
Why does the WotHL need to spend LoH to use his abilities at all?
He probably doesn't need LoH for these abilities, you could change a lot of them to use other resources or have them simply have their own per day tables.
But! In the interest of making minor improvements and not trying to completely rewrite a class, I utilised the tools that were already there.
Though I just wanted to quickly mention that my rules of power of faith don't allow you to provide a bonus higher than half your paladin level, so you could never give +20, even at level 20. The maximum you could ever give is +10, and that's if you spend a lot of your resources to do so.
And I would say it's GM's discretion as to what situations you are able to get those bonuses. Like I shouldn't be able to semi-metagame and say "oh well, I haven't used all my charges today so I'll give my party +7 in this evening pub brawl." No.. what'd likely happen is the GM denies it and says my deity doesn't support the action, and I lose the charges with no effect for bad play.
At level 20, even the bard - for whom buffing is a primary class feature - grants only a +5 bonus to his allies with bardic performance and that doesn't include a morale(!) bonus to AC. The bonus from power of faith should definitely advance less fast (maybe cap at +3).
Mechanics that require GM intervention for balancing reasons are bad mechanics.How is it impossible to implement? Everything this archetype has is up in my original post above. He has no other spells.. What situations are you thinking of that are impossible to balance? Chances are those same situations would be unbalanced for a lot of other classes too, and for people who spend a lot of time optimising and min-maxing those classes.
In my opinion, a well-designed class should have some features that have a small or moderate effect and that can be used consistently, and a few powerful abilites that can be used only occasionally. Most classes follow this philosophy to a greater (spellcasters) or lesser (fighter, rogue) extent. While spellcasting ability is not required to achieve this goal, it certainly helps: You have a lot of low-level spells (plus wands and scrolls) but only a few of your most powerful incantations. And you can't spend all your spell slots at once to gain a super powerful effect ("nova").
The paladin is another case (and maybe even unique in this regard). With smite evil he has a super powerful primary class ability that can only be used a few times per day. At 4th level, he also gains lay on hands, which can be used more often (though still not as consistently as, say, bardic performance) and a few spells. The paladin is basically a class with a built in nova-option: Most of the time, he is a fighter without weapon-training (I'm exaggerating here, but only a little), but when he finally uses smite evil, his opponent will go down very very fast. I assume that fits your concept (power through patience and all that), but I don't think it is a smart design choice. It is less fun for the players (the paladin's player, whose character only shines in a few situations as well as the other players, whose characters are overshadowed by the paladin in the final encounter) and it makes the combat challenge less predictable for the GM. Resource management can be fun and is a part of the game, but you should be able to use your primary class feature more consistently.
As a general fix to the paladin's problem with smite evil (as I see it), I would replace it with an ability similar to your power of faith (Note: replace an offensive power with another offensive power) and increase its uses to, say, level + CHA times per day (without the need to spend LoH) and probably change action economy to swift action and duration to one round.
Now, the WotHL can use lay on hands more consistently and gains more options to use them - on principle, I agree that these are some good changes, as it breaks the pattern described above. But I still think the ability, as written by you, provides the wrong incentives (namely spending all your power at once against a superior opponent - the same problem as with smite evil). I would encourage you to come up with a better wording for power of faith. Personally, I wouldn't add more offensive powers like holy strike, but instead try to come up with some cool aura effects to support allies.
Of course, you, your GM and your fellow players will have to figure out what works for the group and I wish you the best.
Thanks for your feedback Amaneunsis! It's appreciated. Like I said in my original post, I wanted to flesh out the archetype a little without screwing over my GM or the rest of my party..
I agree the bonuses on Power of Faith should be toned down. Slowing down the rate the bonuses are gained, or capping the bonuses earlier are both good ways to do this.
With that said I don't think the comparison to the bard is entirely fair. Although it is largely a buffing class, it also has spells and abilities that allow it to tackle a far wider range of tasks than a paladin could with this archetype.
As you said previously, this archetype is very specialised - and this is on top of the Paladin's already specialised nature.
Power of Faith is just one thing in a handful of special qualities this paladin has in a combat scenario. I think that balances out having a slightly more powerful buff than the bard in a few situations.. But! this is the point of the thread after all, I want to know if others agree/disagree.. :)