I had a fighter barbarian that used the minotaur crossbow for 10 shots at level 11.
Please tell me which movie allows 10 shots in 6 seconds with muzzle loading double barreled guns. This is a level of movie magic that even Feng Shui doesn't allow.
I think part of the issue is that you see "muzzle loader" and think of real life expert musketeers being able to fire off 2 shots in a minute. In Pathfinder, the worst musketeer in the world can fire 5 shots in a minute, and one with slight training (i.e. Rapid Reload) and a little bit of preparation (alchemical cartridges) can fire 10 shots per minute no problem, and that's not even getting into the highly specialized, yet still low level, gunmen (i.e. Gunslingers with the musket based archetype).
Even by default assumptions of the game, early firearms are seemingly much more advanced than real life early firearms, so at what point does applying "realism" really make sense as we're comparing apples and oranges here?
As for reloading slowness, ever played a video game that kept track of how many bullets were in each clip/cartridge? I don't think I've played any like that. I've certainly done it in shadowrun...
The ARMA games do this. I've probably played more but I'm forgetting.
|
I think part of the issue is that you see "muzzle loader" and think of real life expert musketeers being able to fire off 2 shots in a minute. In Pathfinder, the worst musketeer in the world can fire 5 shots in a minute...
Soldiers using muzzle loading firearms (muskets, NOT rifles; early rifles took MUCH longer to load) during the American Revolution typically fired between 4-6 shots per minute, IIRC. Modern "expert musketeers" can do the same. Someone with a little experience with muskets can fire two shots per minute.
None of which changes the fact that no one could possibly fire ten rounds from two different muzzle loading firearms in a single 6-second span IRL. And, yes, for many people it's much easier to suspend disbelief regarding a fireball than it is impossible feats with firearms. Primarily because anyone (in the US at least) can easily gain first hand experience with muzzle loading firearms. None of us can see a wizard cast a fireball. (I don't particularly care either way; I don't play PF because it provides a perfect replication of reality.)
Also because they don't understand how brutal the misfire rules are.
Well, that tends to happen when they never see the brutality in action. I had a gunslinger in my last campaign, which ran close to three years of bi-weekly playing. He went the TWF pistol route, and his guns misfired maybe three times the entire campaign.
Brutal? I wouldn't really know about that. Never really saw those rules in action.
I never thought allowing one of my players to dual wield revolvers was actually secretly steering her into a suboptimal build. These double guns are really strong apparently.
|
|
How does gun twirling give an extra attack?It's not giving an extra attack, it's letting him reload as a free action with two weapons.
Gun Twirling (Grit)
You can spin and juggle a small firearm, making it difficult to predict where you will shoot.
Prerequisite(s): Amateur Gunslinger feat or grit class feature, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.
Benefit(s): You can spend 1 grit point to make a feint attempt using a one-handed firearm for which you have Weapon Focus (instead of a melee weapon). The target of this feint must be within 30 feet of you and be able to see you.
If you have the Quick Draw feat, you can holster a one-handed firearm as a free action as long as you have at least 1 grit point.
LOL, the real benefit is hidden in the last row, like it was a minor point.
|
|
Double barreled pistols do not double attacks, they add one extra per action(eg. fullround action). This means one extra attack per full attack, per pistol.
As per this example, if you normally have 5 atttacks and you double tap 2 double pistols then you would have 7 attacks at a -8 penalty(-4 from one pistol, -4 from the other) before normal TWF penalties. For a total of -12 on all attacks, -14 when using rapid shot
Double barreled muskets on the other hand actually double attacks at a -4, yeah they are really that awkward.
From a literal read of the rules you get a flat -4, not -4 multiplied geometrically. You would have 10 attacks from a double discharge on each shot, with 6 at +10 and 4 at +5 like Exguardi said.
We don't allow more than a single free action reload of a weapon per full-attack per weapon. Under this ruling you get only 8 attacks, with 6 at +12 and 2 at +7 as rapid shot isn't needed. Gunslingers' have enough attacks with out the level of cheese from unlimited free reloads.
You are completely wrong,
first, penalties stack, always
second :
This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
Its one extra per action, as in full round action, not one extra per attack. Obviously 99% people dont understand double barrled weapons.
Compare to double musket which actually doubles attacks because it has a different wording
This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack.If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
RAW you are perfectly right but I doubt it is an intended difference.
Try to enforce it at a gaming table with strangers in it and it will become ugly in a very short time.|
|
Why is it not unattended? They obviously had to throw it higher than 5 feet? There needs to be a reason other than, "Because I said."
Do not get me wrong, Bronnwynn, I love this sort of flash. The current state of the rules does not really support it though.
For the same reason Ioun Stones aren't unattended. Items in your general area, owned by you, and that can only be easily retrived by you are considered yours.
I might allow them to be shot by a readied action, using similar stats to the Ioun Stone's AC and such.
Also, simpler game rules.
Faulty reasoning Bronnwynn, ioun stones have specific rules that say that they interact with you wen used and that they are in your possessions. They are not a basis to say that any item you drop or toss is still in your possession.
The ARMA games do this. I've probably played more but I'm forgetting.
Love that game. And with ACE mod it even does not tell you how many ammo is left in magazine, it just says "magazine feels heavy" or "magazine feels empty" when you load it XD
Why is it not unattended? They obviously had to throw it higher than 5 feet? There needs to be a reason other than, "Because I said."
Do not get me wrong, Bronnwynn, I love this sort of flash. The current state of the rules does not really support it though.
For the same reason Ioun Stones aren't unattended. Items in your general area, owned by you, and that can only be easily retrived by you are considered yours.
I might allow them to be shot by a readied action, using similar stats to the Ioun Stone's AC and such.
Also, simpler game rules.
Faulty reasoning Bronnwynn, ioun stones have specific rules that say that they interact with you wen used and that they are in your possessions. They are not a basis to say that any item you drop or toss is still in your possession.
If there's rules somewhere that say that you do or do not lose possession of something when you toss it in the air and then catch it, well, I'll cede to those per RAW.
I'm not saying things I drop are still in my possession - but if a fighter tosses his sword from his right hand to his left hand, is it unattended while it's in the air?
|
|
If he toss it mid fight and I have any way to act in that split second, yes.
What CMD would you use if I try to hit and throw away your sword while it is in mid air?
Your strength applies? No it is not in your hand.
Your dexterity? No, same reason.
Your BAB? No, same reason.
It isn't even a disarming attempt, as you aren't wielding the weapon.
If he toss it mid fight and I have any way to act in that split second, yes.
What CMD would you use if I try to hit and throw away your sword while it is in mid air?
Your strength applies? No it is not in your hand.
Your dexterity? No, same reason.
Your BAB? No, same reason.It isn't even a disarming attempt, as you aren't wielding the weapon.
Given that the feat flavor text specifically mentions juggling, then I suppose it should mention that it's unattended while you're doing that?
|
|
The ARMA games do this. I've probably played more but I'm forgetting.
As for reloading slowness, ever played a video game that kept track of how many bullets were in each clip/cartridge? I don't think I've played any like that. I've certainly done it in shadowrun...
Every one I have played, from first person shooter to the whole Fallout line.
|
|
Given that the feat flavor text specifically mentions juggling, then I suppose it should mention that it's unattended while you're doing that?If he toss it mid fight and I have any way to act in that split second, yes.
What CMD would you use if I try to hit and throw away your sword while it is in mid air?
Your strength applies? No it is not in your hand.
Your dexterity? No, same reason.
Your BAB? No, same reason.It isn't even a disarming attempt, as you aren't wielding the weapon.
Gun Twirling (Grit)
You can spin and juggle a small firearm, making it difficult to predict where you will shoot.
Prerequisite(s): Amateur Gunslinger feat or grit class feature, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.
Benefit(s): You can spend 1 grit point to make a feint attempt using a one-handed firearm for which you have Weapon Focus (instead of a melee weapon). The target of this feint must be within 30 feet of you and be able to see you.
If you have the Quick Draw feat, you can holster a one-handed firearm as a free action as long as you have at least 1 grit point.
If you are spending a grit point to juggle your weapon and every time you juggle ti (i.e. every free "toss in the air") action you take, fine. You are in control of the weapon.
But that isn't what you were proposing.BTW: where is written that tossing something in the air is a free action? Dropping something is a free action.
As a GM I would say NO!
Why? reloading a front loaded firearm 5 times in 6 seconds? not possible...
As a GM I would say NO!
Why? reloading a front loaded firearm 5 times in 6 seconds? not possible...
But putting bat guano on your hands, waving them around, and chanting a little to make a ball of fire appear 100 feet away? Totes possible.
Well, although the guns fire more rapidly in real life, their crit chance or base damage is severely on the low end. So its a balance.
Bronnwynn: I know that this will come up :)
While I can explain this with "magic" I couldn't explain an impossible reload speed by an mundane character with it (because he is mundane^^).
If the high reload speed comes from some sort of magic (e.g. extradimensonal relaoding chambers) I would be fine with it.
(I also want to see some "mundane/mechanical" improvements for firearms/crossbows to increase some stats (e.g. faster reload mechanics by using a lever system and magazine for crossbows (Varric^^))
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can deal with it, but I do wish they'd found a different way to make firearms viable rather than just handwaving reload times to work with iterative attacks.But putting bat guano on your hands, waving them around, and chanting a little to make a ball of fire appear 100 feet away? Totes possible.As a GM I would say NO!
Why? reloading a front loaded firearm 5 times in 6 seconds? not possible...
simple, make firearms magic weapons powered by the manliness of the god of the gunslingers: Clint Eastwood
|
|
Well, with rapid reload, only reloading a single barrel is a free action. Any other barrels reloaded use the normal process.That's a possible interpretation. Kind of an odd one, since it makes little sense to say you can reload the left barrel as many times as you want as free actions, but it takes a move to reload the right barrel.
This is quite incorrect thjeff, you can reload as many times as you want as a free action, nowhere nor in the rapid reload rules nor in the firearm reload rules there is limitation such as this on reloading. The only one which hints this way of wroking is only in the Lighting Reload and even there its debatable
Bronnwynn: I know that this will come up :)
While I can explain this with "magic" I couldn't explain an impossible reload speed by an mundane character with it (because he is mundane^^).
If the high reload speed comes from some sort of magic (e.g. extradimensonal relaoding chambers) I would be fine with it.
(I also want to see some "mundane/mechanical" improvements for firearms/crossbows to increase some stats (e.g. faster reload mechanics by using a lever system and magazine for crossbows (Varric^^))
The problem with that argument is that even martial characters rapidly become non-mundane. There are plenty of other ways in which martials go beyond mundane limits, generally just by numbers adding up, so it seems silly to pick specific things and say "No, unless magic!"
You're dealing with a system where at fairly low levels an unarmored martial with the proper training can beat a rhino to death with his bare hands with little risk. Or outwrestle a gorilla.
Essentially this. Hell, even a wizard without magic transcends human bounds pretty quickly. If you don't dump physicals you can end up - at level 10 - being able to jump 20 feet with a long jump without breaking a sweat if you care to put the points in, or being able to scale a wall like you're a gecko, or being able to count off every detail about every animal that ever existed - and be better in a fist fight than anyone in a town.
Adventurers aren't mundane. Some of them aren't magical, but they're not mundane.
|
Unless there's a ruling otherwise, per RAW double barrel pistols double your number of attacks at a -4 penalty. As in the previous poster's link to the developer's quote, that's exactly how they work and is reflected in PFS play.
It's balanced prior to level 13 because you must fire both barrels. So if the first one misfires, there is a high probability your second shot will cause the weapon to explode. After 13th level, when misfires are no longer an issue, double barreled weapons become way too strong.
As to gun twirling and all that jazz, you'll be far more effective wielding a single double barreled pistol and focusing your feats on increased damage. Having a ton of attacks might look great on paper, but there is a huge chance that your weapon will misfire. Personally, I only used the double shot in critical moments or when I could only make one attack per turn. And in 12 levels of PFS play I can remember at least two occasions where it flat out exploded in the middle of a fight due to firing both barrels.
|
|
This is quite incorrect thjeff, you can reload as many times as you want as a free action, nowhere nor in the rapid reload rules nor in the firearm reload rules there is limitation such as this on reloading. The only one which hints this way of wroking is only in the Lighting Reload and even there its debatableLightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.You are only allowed to do one free action reload with Lightning Reload each round.Yes, but if you have Rapid Reload and use alchemical cartridges, you don't need Lightning reload to reload a one-handed firearm as a free action. (Or a Two-handed one, if you're a Musket Master.)
Frankly, it's a pretty useless deed, as far as I can see.
Yep its quite useless, some however argue you should be able to use it multiple rounds depending on how you read it. At least it would make it somehow useful feat. As per the regular reading this is only useful for reloading a firearm in which you have no specialized.
|
|
Unless there's a ruling otherwise, per RAW double barrel pistols double your number of attacks at a -4 penalty. As in the previous poster's link to the developer's quote, that's exactly how they work and is reflected in PFS play.
This way of using it is incorrect, the devs comment on behalf of it talked about the playtest version so the intent may have changed since then . If they use it that way in PFS I find it weird since its not going according to RAW.
Double barreled pistols do not double attacks, they add one extra per action(eg. fullround action). This means one extra attack per full attack, per pistol.
As per this example, if you normally have 5 atttacks and you double tap 2 double pistols then you would have 7 attacks at a -8 penalty(-4 from one pistol, -4 from the other) before normal TWF penalties. For a total of -12 on all attacks, -14 when using rapid shot
Double barreled muskets on the other hand actually double attacks at a -4, yeah they are really that awkward.
From a literal read of the rules you get a flat -4, not -4 multiplied geometrically. You would have 10 attacks from a double discharge on each shot, with 6 at +10 and 4 at +5 like Exguardi said.
We don't allow more than a single free action reload of a weapon per full-attack per weapon. Under this ruling you get only 8 attacks, with 6 at +12 and 2 at +7 as rapid shot isn't needed. Gunslingers' have enough attacks with out the level of cheese from unlimited free reloads.
You are completely wrong,
first, penalties stack, always
second :
This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
Its one extra per action, as in full round action, not one extra per attack. Obviously 99% people dont understand double barrled weapons.
Compare to double musket which actually doubles attacks because it has a different wording
This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack.
|
|
Yes, but if you have Rapid Reload and use alchemical cartridges, you don't need Lightning reload to reload a one-handed firearm as a free action. (Or a Two-handed one, if you're a Musket Master.)
Frankly, it's a pretty useless deed, as far as I can see.
So a Gunslinger with that Deed actually reloads slower than someone without that Deed. They do at least gain the ability to reload without drawing an attack of opportunity.
A good RAI argument can be made that that was supposed to be the limit for max reload speed.
Still, there is the GM decided limit to the number of free actions you can do in a round. By the rules, the GM is always within their rights to limit the number of reloads you can get in a round. (The 10 shot per round and reload requires 20 free actions. Each double shot requires you to holster your other weapon, reload twice, and then draw again.)
When I designed my campaign world for 2nd edition AD&D I decided that, much like Oerth, the gods decided to not allow smokepoweder to work. I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind about that :)
Interestingly the bolt ace does not have that "once per round" nonsense, instead his deed (which replaces lighting reload) reduces the reload time one step , which is actually useful because the reducing time stacks with rapid reload to make reloading time a minimum of no action . Personally I think this is the way this deed was suppoused to work.
|
|
Others disagree. RAW is unclear. Ask for a FAQ if you want.
Personally, I disagree, but then I don't subscribe to the overinterpretation school of RAW interpretation. It's possible they intended something different by saying action instead of attack. It's possible they just meant the same things - you can fire both barrels at once.
Even interpreting strictly, I don't see your reading. I could see a reading saying it was an action to fire both at once. Presumably a standard, since that's the usual action to attack. I don't see how to read "both can be shot at once with the same action" as with one action you can fire both barrels once and then each barrel singly as many times total as you have attacks.
Either "as an action" means it takes an action to do this thing or it doesn't.
The other language in the quote "each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action" would also mean it takes an action (standard or full round attack action) to fire each barrel separately. Which is certainly not the intent.
"An action" in pathfinder is something stablished: its free, swift, standard, move or full round action.
A full attack is a full round action. You can fire both barrels as a part of a fullround action, for example a full attack. Also if you use the attack action, which is a standard action, you can also double tap it a part of that action. This is in the case of double pistols.
For example you can draw a weapon as a part of a move action, you cannot draw multiple weapons with the same action. Unless of course you get multiple move actions via action reducing.
On the other hand Double Musket specify attacks, not action. Fullattack is a full round action which lets you make a variable amount of attacks, double muskets can be double tapped as part of each of this attacks. Also since the attack action lets you make an attack it can also be double tapped as a part of this attack.
I cant speak for intent nor i will bother with an faq request because devs deliberately seem like they want to ignore firearms. Besides there are already threads asking this and many other inconsistencies of firearms. Of course you are free to interpret it the way you like in your game altought beware that interpretation takes gunslinger DPR trough the roof, I guess our meassures of balance could be different tought
|
We don't allow more than a single free action reload of a weapon per full-attack per weapon.
How the heck do rangers do anything in your campaigns????
Gunslinger 1, Spellslinger 3; rapid shot, twf (drops one after firing it), +1 Bane weapon (1 round of prep) = 3 attacks, each doing 1d8+2d6 +3 (+PBS and vs Touch AC within one range increment). Criticals are monstrous at 4d8 + 8d6 damage +12 (plus PBS, for like 26-94 points ea). Luckily they are rare (5%).
|
|
For example you can draw a weapon as a part of a move action, you cannot draw multiple weapons with the same action. Unless of course you get multiple move actions via action reducing.The rules for two weapon fighting specify that you can draw both as part of the same action.
This is an exception to the rule that only applies if you have the two weapon Fighting feat
[...]If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.[...]
|
|
We don't allow more than a single free action reload of a weapon per full-attack per weapon.
How the heck do rangers do anything in your campaigns????
Gunslinger 1, Spellslinger 3; rapid shot, twf (drops one after firing it), +1 Bane weapon (1 round of prep) = 3 attacks, each doing 1d8+2d6 +3 (+PBS and vs Touch AC within one range increment). Criticals are monstrous at 4d8 + 8d6 damage +12 (plus PBS, for like 26-94 points ea). Luckily they are rare (5%).
A clarification: the one who uses that house rule was Aku-Arkaine not me. I recommend you correct you formatting because it can lead to misunderstandings
|
|
Well, although the guns fire more rapidly in real life, their crit chance or base damage is severely on the low end. So its a balance.
A sword stroke kills you as easily as a bullet.
It is hard to argue that a bullet should more damage or should have has a better critical. A killing weapon is a killing weapon.The old Challenge magazine from GDW had an interesting article on gun wound, based on the reports from police border patrols on the Mexican frontier.
To sum it up, bullets wounds were either immediately fatal or they had a high rate of survival even for multiple wounds (advance medical care was available in all situations thanks to medevac with helicopters, very similar to our in game cures).
Medieval weapons are very similar, you either die in a few seconds to a severed artery, smashed skull and so on or you survive a flesh wound or a broken bone.
It is hp that make the difference. We have decided to play a game with hp, where they represent our ability to dodge a wound, luck and so on.
Only the last few hp are actual, serious, physical damage.
|
|
The can is for taking the reload action. Once they decide to take the reload action, they are bound by the rules for it.
nothing in the text suggests this
she can reload[/b] a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
If this was mandatory the word used would be must or has to. Can implies a option not an order. Otherwise power attack and expertise would be always on and you would never be able to turn it off