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no one said they hated Eberron Fabius, its all in your head, the more you jump on people for expressing themselves the more you make me want to hate it.
no one lied about Eberron, just expressing our opinions of it:-)
if you want people only to say nice things you need to start a thread for it, maybe title it "Eberron, how do I love thee, let me count the ways" but jumping on everyone here that doesnt like it as much as you isn't constructive at all
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I found the background to be decent. Though it also had fans that almost sold me off it as well. One of the big things that bothered fans about FR was the amount of high level npcs. Eberron has none or very little. Which some of the fans of Ebberron liked to point out over and over. The one questions the fans never like to answer is what happens when the players characters level up. Eventually those low level npcs have to be reworked or the players start becoming better than them. Some fans also tried to pass it off as being grim and gritty which I never got as a vibe.
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if you want people only to say nice things you need to start a thread for it, maybe title it "Eberron, how do I love thee, let me count the ways" but jumping on everyone here that doesnt like it as much as you isn't constructive at all
Agreed and seconded. Then again more often than not fans of a topic really don't want to hear anything negative about the thread. More a feel good echo chamber. It's like when a poster asks if he did something wrong. Then gets mad when the majority of the posts say "yeah you did".
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Every setting will have high level people by virtue of the players playing in the setting. I think when they say "It doesn't have high level NPCs like FR or Greyhawk", they mean canon published NPCs. At least, that's what I think they are talking about.
Don't like Eberron for the reasons people here have said that they like it.
However, there's some decent stealable stuff here for steampunk/magitech settings, so that's all right (though not as much, or as well defined, as I would have liked).
And trains. I thought the trains were meh until I saw "Riding the Rail" in Dungeon #143. Now trains are the bomb.
i actually liked that FR and greyhawk did have high level NPCs stated up, saves a lot of time making your own, also just because the book says "Elminster level 30+" doesn't mean he has to be in your campaign:-)
EDIT: nothing to see here. Your comment was directed towards a poster who never commented on our position of "racism" in Eberron. So consider my comment redacted. :)
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if you want people only to say nice things you need to start a thread for it, maybe title it "Eberron, how do I love thee, let me count the ways" but jumping on everyone here that doesnt like it as much as you isn't constructive at all
Quark Blast's post was pretty vitriolic, throwing words around like "atrocity". My postings here are tame in comparison.
And no, I have nothing against criticism that is founded somehow. However, you and Quark Blast admitted that you basically have not done much reading on the subject and have also stated things that are objectively wrong (probably as a result of ignorance). That is not constructive.
if you want people only to say nice things you need to start a thread for it, maybe title it "Eberron, how do I love thee, let me count the ways" but jumping on everyone here that doesnt like it as much as you isn't constructive at allQuark Blast's post was pretty vitriolic, throwing words around like "atrocity". My postings here are tame in comparison.
And no, I have nothing against criticism that is founded somehow. However, you and Quark Blast admitted that you basically have not done much reading on the subject and have also stated things that are objectively wrong (probably as a result of ignorance). That is not constructive.
once again you seem to be picking nits:)
i had all the books except Sarlona, they were also the first 3.5 books i sold years ago to get pathfinder. so please forgive me if i can't sit here and reference exact artwork.and for the record i wasn't the one in my little group (which is heavy on racial minorities) that pointed out the lack of racial diversity amongst humans, it was a co-worker that wanted to try out RPGs.
and actually looking for a more racially diverse campaign setting book for my group is how i found the pathfinder campaign setting:)
another point to consider, is that here in the midwest, Racism and sexism are very alive and unwell, especially in my industry (construction) so we might be more sensitive to the subject then you might be where you live.
so unless you want to start linking pictures that refute my point of view i think i'm done we're done beating the dead horse.
lastly i'm pretty sure i said somewhat
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I found the background to be decent. Though it also had fans that almost sold me off it as well. One of the big things that bothered fans about FR was the amount of high level npcs. Eberron has none or very little. Which some of the fans of Ebberron liked to point out over and over. The one questions the fans never like to answer is what happens when the players characters level up. Eventually those low level npcs have to be reworked or the players start becoming better than them. Some fans also tried to pass it off as being grim and gritty which I never got as a vibe.
That is an interesting question. It is also very difficult to answer; because for every person who says that they need more high-level enemies and encounters statted up in print to save the prep work, there is another who argues that high-level PCs are so diverse and so powerful at the things that they have specialized in that it is impossible to create "general use" enemies at those levels and the GM should custom build enemies to match up in interesting ways with the PCs.
The best answer as it applies to Eberron is to send the PCs out of Khorvaire (the main continent) and let them adventure in the heart of Xen'Drik, or combat the Dreaming Dark in Sarlona, or even have them deal with the dragons of Argonnessen. Argonnessen particularly was seemingly designed specifically with high-to-epic level play in mind.
You can even keep them close to home and have them combat the Lords of Dust and their Raksasha masters in Khorvaire if those other shores don't appeal.
In short, the high level power players are there (Vol, the Chamber, the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, etc.), they are just more in the background than other settings and require more work from the GM to bring out.
That may not be to everyone’s taste, which is fine since there are dozens of other settings to play with, but the options are there.
you know what Fabius because you were soooo classy and called me ignorant i went ahead and did an image search on Bing for Eberron Campaign Setting artwork and lo and behold i was right! no color, at. all! just like i remembered:-)
next time do some research before you insult people:-)
A campaign setting released in 2002 has no excuse for a lack of racial diversity in their artwork, no matter what the descriptions say:)
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That is an interesting question. It is also very difficult to answer; because for every person who says that they need more high-level enemies and encounters statted up in print to save the prep work, there is another who argues that high-level PCs are so diverse and so powerful at the things that they have specialized in that it is impossible to create "general use" enemies at those levels and the GM should custom build enemies to match up in interesting ways with the PCs.The best answer as it applies to Eberron is to send the PCs out of Khorvaire (the main continent) and let them adventure in the heart of Xen'Drik, or combat the Dreaming Dark in Sarlona, or even have them deal with the dragons of Argonnessen. Argonnessen particularly was seemingly designed specifically with high-to-epic level play in mind.
You can even keep them close to home and have them combat the Lords of Dust and their Raksasha masters in Khorvaire if those other shores don't appeal.
In short, the high level power players are there (Vol, the Chamber, the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, etc.), they are just more in the background than other settings and require more work from the GM to bring out.
That may not be to everyone’s taste, which is fine since there are dozens of other settings to play with, but the options are there.
All good points.I hope with 5E we get to see Eberron get released again.
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A campaign setting released in 2002 has no excuse for a lack of racial diversity in their artwork, no matter what the descriptions say:)
It was released in 2004. And blame WotC for the homogeneity in the artwork and not Eberron itself.
good point!
actually my favorite "worst DnD artwork" would be the picture they have in there with people in different outfits and sex but the Faces are all the same! that picture still cracks me up all these years later, it really makes you appreciate Paizo and their world class art department:)
good point!
actually my favorite "worst DnD artwork" would be the picture they have in there with people in different outfits and sex but the Faces are all the same! that picture still cracks me up all these years later, it really makes you appreciate Paizo and their world class art department:)
In the Eberron Campaign Setting book? Not sure which picture you are talking about in there. If you are talking about the one in the human race entry, I think that is a failure on DB's (David Bircham) part. He also did the half-elf image, and they look exactly the same. Again, I think that's a failure on the artist. And if you look closely enough, the first human to the left, and the man with dark hair look like they are supposed to have darker skin.
I am talking about the setting book, its just a hilariously bad picture is all I was getting at :-)
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Oh, we're talking about racism in RPGs.
Okay, I present to you Golarion. We've seen seven or eight different varieties of human in the Inner Sea region and just as many in the Tian Xia region. And there are still more continents to go.
But we don't see such diversity in the other races. I guess all elves really do look alike. I think it's implied that half-elves get to be diverse but only because they're half-descended from human. It certainly doesn't come from their cookie-cutter elven heritage.
Although, there is the gnome race, which actually does exhibit some diversity. Only two, regular and bleachling, but it's better than no diversity, right?
Except, the bleachlings are specifically called out as being sick and unwell. They only look the way they do because something is grievously wrong with them. And oh, yeah, it's irreversible, too.
Did I mention how it comes about? It happens when the gnome isn't living his life the way he should. Yep, you live a good and proper life, or you have to look different for the error of your ways.
...
Oh, wow, will I take Eberron's "humans get no more and no less diversity than any other *race" over that any day of the week.
*you know, besides changelings and shifters
Don't forget the Svirfneblin and Duergar.
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I absolutely love Eberron. My favorite things are the dragonmarked houses, which I totally see as mafia-esque and the planes leeching into the material plane. I love intrigue and politicking, both of which the Houses have strong potential for.
I was disappointed the planes and moons got very little attention, as both could potentially play a major role in defining the cultures and history of the setting. My yuan-ti are also yearning for more development, other than the tidbits in "Stormreach" and "Xen'drik".
Eberron's gods suck. The book devoted to them sucks. Use the PF or FR gods and blend and knead until happy. The cults and Silver Flame are cool, though.
I like to steal bits from other settings and mix them into Eberron, including the "Iron Kingdoms" campaign setting. Think: much more varied warforged everywhere! Also, taking APs and putting them into Eberron gives me so many more ideas to explore. When Stormreach became Riddleport in "Second Darkness", some cool ideas were born.
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So this thread has made me really contemplate the whole racial diversity thing... and... now that I think about it... Wizard's of the Coast, and the early TSR Dungeons and Dragons always had predominantly white skin tones. Huh... things you don't notice as a kid.
/End Side-Trek
/Begin Actual Post
So, Magic as Technology has never felt (insert noun or verb)-punk to me in the least. It always seemed like a logical conclusion to a medieval fantasy world's "industrial revolution." If you have Magic... and it seems to be the most efficient power source... you build technology around it. I mean, what is Silent Image + Ghost Sound + a large rectangular crystal if not a color television set that you purposefully fail your save to enjoy? When I ran the small module that involved a racing competition (I forget it's name or it's official setting at the moment, this was years ago) I had a large crystalline boulder that a team of Magewrights, Bards, and Race Officials giving the second by second breakdown of the race to the stadium of people at the start/ending point (much like Nascar announcers, with closeups of the action via scrying and projecting.)
I wouldn't feel comfortable using that novel setup that gave my players some great moments in any other setting really. They even got to play their own announcers and we got some great one-liners out of that.
As to others who dislike the trains or the airships, refluffing is something I've always done.. Always. Airships I actually liked, but the Lightning Rail I always envisioned as a line of stage coaches linked together, and the pilot of the "train" was sitting on top of a carriage-like vehicle being pulled by lightning elementals in the shape of horses. Which is something that could be used in traditional fantasy given the right spells. Recently I've begun re-writing the PF AP Kingmaker into the Founding of Stormreach. With our party becoming the first Coin Lords. (and any long-lived PCs still holding their office when we start Skull & Shackles around the Thunder Sea.)
Finally I'd like to say; what people should play, is what people like. While I'd love it if more people were open to Eberron, others prefer Greyhawk with a passion. Yet others think most campaign settings are worthless and make their own. The point of RPGs is to get together with your friends (or total strangers who may become friends) and just have fun. Forget your troubles for a while. Ultimately it's up to GMs to provide the challenge and the world, but the real story lies with the players.
The one questions the fans never like to answer is what happens when the players characters level up. Eventually those low level npcs have to be reworked or the players start becoming better than them.
I'm not sure what you mean. I think it's a good thing that the PCs start outshining low level NPCs.
If you're asking about enemies, once you've conquered the toughest threats in Khorvaire (ugh, what a terrible name) you can move on to adventures in Xen'drik, Argonessen, Sarlona or Khyber, for instance. Likewise, the campaign setting set the stage for a daelkyr invasion or a quori invasion as well.
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I'm not sure what you mean. I think it's a good thing that the PCs start outshining low level NPCs.
One of the things that some fans of Eberron would throw into FR player faces about how much better the setting was the low level npcs. While forgetting or ignoring the fact that players do get better and the low level npcs need to be altered. Unless one plans to run only low level games the npcs need to be tailored for the players as they go up in levels
Let's just say discussion on the subject over on the Wotc boards were very annoying.
If you're asking about enemies, once you've conquered the toughest threats in Khorvaire (ugh, what a terrible name) you can move on to adventures in Xen'drik, Argonessen, Sarlona or Khyber, for instance. Likewise, the campaign setting set the stage for a daelkyr invasion or a quori invasion as well.
Seconded on all points and no disagreement from me
A campaign setting released in 2002 has no excuse for a lack of racial diversity in their artwork, no matter what the descriptions say:)
Moving goalpost. First it was the campaign setting, now it is the artwork and when you basically said the racism was obvious I doubt that counts as "somewhat".
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you can b%+#& and complain all you want there buddy, i made my point.
if you want to continue start another thread, but i'm done here:-)
The only point you made is that you don't know the setting, and you can't remember what you actually said. Either that or you like to "misrepresent" the truth.
I really don't care if you reply or not. I am just pointing out your inconsistencies. If you are done then don't mention it again. It seems simple enough to me.
On a different subject than what's been brought up.
I have the 3e eberron stuff, but never really read it, and now that I typically play PF, really don't have a ton of interest in it.
I still do play 4e, and I know it has an Eberron campaigns setting. It currently looks like it is going for cheap.
What are your thoughts on 4e's approach? Is it worth reading or worth looking at?
what are the differences between it and 3e. Does it provide suitable stats for monsters and creatures unique to Eberron, or is it lacking in that arena.
My favorite 4e Campaign setting is Dark Sun BTW.
So with 4e, I don't think I'm as against the setting as I am for a 3e/3.5 type game.
Just realized I'm in two Eberron PbP's - one is a Sharn-based (so far) investigative adventure. I'm playing one of three Warforged soldiers - remnants of a squad from the Last War.
The other is a Kingmaker meets Skull n Shackles mash off the coast of Xen'drik. Here I'm playing a press-ganged Dreamsight Shifter (descended from were-dolphins) Seer*.
Having much fun in both.
* Seer Base Class from the Thunderscape Campaign Setting. We also have a steamwright from the same book.
@hogarth - As far as naming conventions go I like Khorvaire but loathe Khyber. Taste is a funny thing.
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I believe all settings went "points of light" in 4th edition.
3rd Edition cosmology of Eberron
4th Edition cosmology of Eberron
I think the biggest change, cosmology-wise just from looking at these images, is Khyber went from being the Underdark to being the Elemental Chaos. Siberys also became the Astral Sea, instead of being (if I remember right) the planetary rings. And like the other settings, it gained the Shadowfell and Feywild planes as well.
They kept the Shadowfell and Feywild in 5th edition, though not sure if Eberron will be keeping it or not. They also kept the Elemental Chaos (and I believe Astral Sea), but returned the elemental planes themselves. So I don't know if Khyber will remain the Elemental Chaos or return to being the Underdark.
On a personal note, with the change to 4th edition, I personally would have gone with Khyber = Shadowfell, Siberys = Feywild. I can understand why they went the way they did, as the Astral Sea is called "The Plane Above" and Elemental Chaos "The Plane Below", which mirrors Siberys "The Dragon Above" and Khyber "The Dragon Below", but with at least Khyber being the Underdark in 3rd edition, it would have just made more sense making it the Shadowfell. But that's just me.
4E's changes to Eberron were relatively light, and the campaign setting book is a great overview for the DM. I used it as the basis of my Pathfinder Eberron game, actually. :)
Eberron is so big, with the "If it exists in D&D, there's a place for it in Eberron!" philosophy, that you have to approach the 4E version like a salad bar: take what you want and leave the rest.
3E version too I guess, now I think about it. ;)
But yes, the 4E stuff is mostly good. What's not good about it, is stuff that was not good about 4E in general.
-The Gneech
you know what Fabius because you were soooo classy and called me ignorant i went ahead and did an image search on Bing for Eberron Campaign Setting artwork and lo and behold i was right! no color, at. all! just like i remembered:-)
next time do some research before you insult people:-)
I think it was me and not Fabius who wrote that "I do remember the art depicting different types" of ethnicities. I might be wrong, although I still think there were some asian and eskimo types there. I also wrote "You have to remember all humans came from Sarlona not so long ago. 4.000 years is not long enough for major differences to appear." so not having ethnicities (if that is the case) is consistent with the internal history of the setting.
Certainly you do not have to like the setting, but to say that it is racist because there is only one type of human (when there are so many actually different playable races - as in most of the fantasy settings) is weird. And to stop playing a game because of that is even weirder especially when you may houserule the ethnicities/skin color without any adverse effect on the crunch or fluff of the setting.
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you can b%+#& and complain all you want there buddy, i made my point.
if you want to continue start another thread, but i'm done here:-)The only point you made is that you don't know the setting, and you can't remember what you actually said. Either that or you like to "misrepresent" the truth.
I really don't care if you reply or not. I am just pointing out your inconsistencies. If you are done then don't mention it again. It seems simple enough to me.
My apologies to yourself, Fabius Maximus, and TOZ.
it would seem i was a bit of a jerk, as my wife said "even if it was racially insensitive, that isn't the right forum for the argument" yet another reason of many on why we all need to listen to our better halves a bit more.or as my Dad is fond of saying "don't make a Shit mound out of Rabbit Droppings, it'll never support your weight" i love my Dad
sorry about the scrum, won't happen again,
happy holidays:)
I see your point but what I'm saying about Eberron-official stuff is that if I'm using a purchased product to help me with my campaign it would be nice if it did things that I really don't have time to do.
Adventure hooks? Those are beyond easy to come up with. What I don't have time for is detailed plot interactions and room descriptions. Custom stat blocks and non-standard magic items or traps. The more details the better as I find it far easier to tweak or delete content than to make it up whole on my own. If I'm paying $30-$50 for something I want the boring detail work done for me.
I seriously don't know what you expect. Stat blocks usually don't show up in Campaign Setting material. There are some in the ECS in addition to a few in the other books (mostly when it comes to PrCs). However, there are a lot of "non-standard magic items" to be found; the ECS has a whole section devoted to it, for example. And traps you mainly find in adventure modules, anyway. There are not a lot of those for Eberron, sadly.
Setting books are there to deliver background information. Now, you don't like Eberron as a setting and that's fine. But it seems to me that your expectations are impossibly high here. Maybe you could give me an example of a setting that does it right in your opinion?
Population levels of all the cities for example.
Eberron - it's famous for confusing/wrong maps.
The fact that very few good or neutral NPCs are >6th level yet the world is infused with major BEBG type-things (Dalkyr, Blood of Vol, Lords of Dust, Dreaming Dark, etc.). Things that could eat civilization on Khorvaire for a light brunch yet instead wait around for the PCs to get high enough level to be a threat to them... why?
Baker confessed to the first two facts quite early after the initial publishing of the ECS. I'm not sure if they were fixed in the 4e material.
As for the threats, they all have counters: the Chamber, Adar and the Kalashtar, the Church of the Silver Flame, the Undying Court and so on. Don't forget that the most powerful beings of two Big Bad factions are locked into Khyber, one of them pretty thoroughly. Also, they don't wait around (I don't know what gave you that impression).
The confusing maps thing is actually kind of funny. In Xen'drik, maps aren't always accurate and teleportation doesn't work. One way to deal with it, I suppose.
I didn't care for most of the 4E changes. I really didn't like any race, any dragonmark. It made them not special. However, Tarkhaan, the abhorrent marked house did get the love it deserved. 2 pages in "Dragonmarked" was just sad. Also, the half-dragon/dragonblooded race in Eberron bugs me. The dragons despise any humanoid mixing in their blood and will take great pains to eliminate them. The fae race was pretty cool, though.
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Eberrowns.
The one thing that I love most about Eberron, in contrast with a lot of other D&D settings, is that it has absolutely zero metaplot. They established the history of the setting up until the point where the campaign is supposed to begin, and none of the further supplements or novels advanced that timeline or changed the world massively. (Arguably, as 4e did change the cosmology and racial makeup of the setting, but since the cosmology of Eberron was never its main focus it was easy enough to ignore. Also, I actually liked the changes to the cosmology, but that's mainly because I'm a huge fan of the Feywild and Shadowfell introduced by 4e.)
Furthermore, it's an extremely player-empowering setting: it very much comes out of the gate saying that characters with PC classes are really a cut above everyone else, and that already makes the PCs feel a lot more heroic and special. While I do think that having your characters start as unskilled farmboys and girls and growing to great power is a viable and interesting niche in gaming, I personally prefer the sort of a setting where the characters are already a big deal.
And related to the previous point, while there are definitely high-level NPCs in the setting, they are not the characters that drive the setting forward. They are extremely interesting and potentially volatile characters, all of whom could be potential enemies or unlikely allies to the group, but for the most part they are caught in their own political machinations and not actually running around adventuring and changing the world. It's basically the best of both worlds: you've got high-level NPCs to act as a reference point for your characters as to how big and mighty they might grow in the future ("One day we'll be able to kick the Lord of Blades' ass!") but the NPCs are not the focus of the story.
So, to reiterate, Eberrowns.