I was referencing your theory crafted twf super dex build because its the only one that can potentially do more damage than the baseline strength option. It comes online at level five I think? (It was a couple pages back)
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that feats, as a rule, suck when compared against pretty much any other mechanic in the game because you can do it "forever" despite the fact that you only benefit from effects when you need them. On demand powers like spells are so much better it hurts my brain, and you get more of them! Anyway, kind of a tertiary concern that may give some context to my argument.
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Your build definitely has its merits, such as higher AC and a better to hit chance, but it is rather lacking in damage and is very feat intensive. These are two of the penalties for dumping that I mnetioned.
Feat intensive - yes. But it's damage is much higher except againt easily hit mooks which line up for you.
You missed where it gets to swing twice a turn - combined it would be 37.8 damage to compare to the strength build's 26. (and more accurate swings.)
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Unless the dex build has pounce hidden in there somewhere, I don't see this "higher damage" you're talking about.
Do characters in your campaigns rarely to never get full attacks? But of note then - on a single swing the dex build if 5 points more accuate. If (for example) they were going up against an AC of 21 (not very high for level 5) the strength build would average 13 points (hit half the time) while the dex build would average 14.175 points (hit 3/4 of the time) while still having better AC for the return swing.
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The Strength build is also capable of getting multiple attacks, the difference is the dex build is limited to 2 and must use a full attack action while the Strength only needs to find 2+ enemies within 25 feet of each other (You can even throw Lunge inthere if you think 10 ft reach isn't enough).
QUOTE="Charon's Little Helper"]Do characters in your campaigns rarely to never get full attacks?
It happens from time to time, depends on the encounter, but not as often as having multiple enemies somewhat near each other, especially in dungeons and other areas with limited space.
... How are you getting +15 to hit anyway? I'm missing a +2 somewhere.
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The Strength build is also capable of getting multiple attacks, the difference is the dex build is limited to 2 and must use a full attack action while the Strength only needs to find 2+ enemies within 25 feet of each other (You can even throw Lunge inthere if you think 10 ft reach isn't enough).
Do characters in your campaigns rarely to never get full attacks?
It happens from time to time, depending on the encounter, but not as often as having multiple enemies somewhat near each other, especially in dungeons and other areas with limited space.
... How are you getting +15 to hit anyway? I'm missing a +2 somewhere.
What level are you people using?
All the propoaed builds have been 4 or 5 (mine and Helper's are both 5). Presumably this is because that's the sort of level most of the dex builds come online.
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It happens from time to time, depending on the encounter, but not as often as having multiple enemies somewhat near each other, especially in dungeons and other areas with limited space.
The foes don't have to just be within reach of you - they also need to be adjacent to each-other. Even if they line up perfectly, you're extremely unlikely to hit more than 2-3 since a single miss stops it from going any further.
The usefulness of Great Cleave varies a lot between both sessions & GMs. (Does your GM use a lot of mooks? Do they clump up with phalanx style combat? Etc.)
Same with full attacking I suppose - but I've never really had trouble full-attacking on most melee combatants. (Unless they're using a spring/flyby/ride-by attack style of combat.)
Hey i created a race called Naecolin. Here are its stats
Racial Traits Racial Bonus Racial Points
Type Humanoid 0
Size Medium 0
Base Speed Normal with Swim 1
Ability Score Modifiers Standard (+2 dexterity, +2 wisdom, -2 intelligence) 0
Languages Lesser (Naecolin) -1
Immunities Water Resistance 4
Skills Slimy 3
Misc. Weapon and Armor Familiarity 2
Senses Superior Darkvision 3
Senses Blindsight 7
Weaknesses Light Sensitivity -5
Total 14
They are deep sea creatures
How does DEX to damage make them less MAD? What caster uses Dex as their casting stat?
Show me a melee fighting caster with dex to damage feats, I'll show you a better one using Strength.
Pick a Magus, ten will get you twenty he's Dex-to-Damage. The few that aren't are either intentionally going suboptimal, being played in a rolled-stat game and got good enough stats that MAD isn't an option, or started at mid-level or better.
Your "standard" Magus pretty much only cares about Dex and Int as stats go. Con and Will are nice to have, Str is "high enough to walk around in", Cha is a funny joke that's used to mock Eldritch Scions.
Polymorph based strength builds are totally viable. It seems like the only way to go because the magus class features have a lot of synergy with dex to damage feats due to the hand restrictions, but it is by no means the only way to do it.
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How does DEX to damage make them less MAD? What caster uses Dex as their casting stat?
Show me a melee fighting caster with dex to damage feats, I'll show you a better one using Strength.
Pick a Magus, ten will get you twenty he's Dex-to-Damage. The few that aren't are either intentionally going suboptimal, being played in a rolled-stat game and got good enough stats that MAD isn't an option, or started at mid-level or better.
Your "standard" Magus pretty much only cares about Dex and Int as stats go. Con and Will are nice to have, Str is "high enough to walk around in", Cha is a funny joke that's used to mock Eldritch Scions.
I'll second that - any melee caster who can't wear heavy armor would do FAR better with with dex to damage. (Magus / Bard / Skald / Eldritch Knight etc.)
The same is true of anyone else stuck with light armor or less. (Monk / rogue / ninja / brawler etc)
Even people stuck in medium armor (like ranger) would benefit more than those in heavy armor.
What? A Gargoyle wielding a sword can spell combat. You have to open hands! You don't have to use your natural attacks.
Spell combat for a polymorph spell, then proceed to full attack.
Next turn spell combat shocking grasp to spellstrike while full attacking.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
I think you may be overstating the Magus classes weakness. You may have to focus on Defense for the first few levels. Spell combat plus defensive spells equals higher than average protection. Either way you go though, the Magus is kind of a slow starter.
In terms of damage and to hit Magus starts pretty well off.
Rationing 1 arcane pool point per combat in early levels makes you pretty good at hitting and damage.
Strength Build Magus is honestly not too bad off compared to a lot of stuff.
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... How are you getting +15 to hit anyway? I'm missing a +2 somewhere.It's normally +13 due to TWF. But that wouldn't apply with a single attack.
(5 BAB + 6 dex + 2 bashing + 1 weapon focus + 1 weapon training)
Bashing only gives +1 and Weapon Training doesn't apply to shields. Also I've realised my build should be at +11 to hit rather than +10.
The foes don't have to just be within reach of you - they also need to be adjacent to each-other. Even if they line up perfectly, you're extremely unlikely to hit more than 2-3 since a single miss stops it from going any further.
The usefulness of Great Cleave varies a lot between both sessions & GMs. (Does your GM use a lot of mooks? Do they clump up with phalanx style combat? Etc.)
Same with full attacking I suppose - but I've never really had trouble full-attacking on most melee combatants. (Unless they're using a spring/flyby/ride-by attack style of combat.)
I've definitely overestimated the value of Great Cleave, it would probably be more effective to take advantage of my build's higher CMB (and CMD) and extra feats to go with some combat manoeuvres. I could have also swapped out the bonus feat from Human (which my build doesn't really need) and got 15 dexterity so I could Two-Weapon Fight as well, with armour spikes.
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No Two-Weapon Fighting with Armor Spikes and a two-handed weapon. That also doesn't really work with a reach weapon and a non-reach weapon.
a) Um, yes you can? You can use them as an off-hand attack without taking up an actual hand (like an unarmed strike), so I don't see why you wouldn't be able to.
b) Step 1. Attack with one weapon. Step 2. 5 foot step. Step 3. Attack with other weapon.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the real problem/issue: Most of these things shouldn't even be feats to begin with!
Weapon Finesse and any Improved variety where you get to add damage too should just be baked into the system.
As should Power Attack.
As should Combat Expertise.
And so on and so fourth...
The very LAST thing I want in a game that already has hundreds (thousands?) of feat options is more feats.
[Edit - Before the masses come-a-ragin' about how that would make Dex too good, no, it wouldn't. Reflex is the weakest save. AC is limited by armor type. Strength with Power Attack will still be doing more damage. The world wouldn't end. Str characters would live on.]
Huh, didn't realise that was FAQ'd. I find it odd, as a reach weapon + Armour Spikes with TWF has been a build for quite a long time.
The rule was based on the idea that your "offhand" isn't literally your off-hand. It's an abstract construction to denote potential additional attack effects (ie: when you swing that 2h weapon, it eats up your main hand option, and your offhand option, even if you have other weapon styles available).
It's one of those rules that doesn't make any logical sense, but exists to limit the metagame.
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Here's the real problem/issue: Most of these things shouldn't even be feats to begin with!
Weapon Finesse and any Improved variety where you get to add damage too should just be baked into the system.
As should Power Attack.
As should Combat Expertise.
And so on and so fourth...The very LAST thing I want in a game that already has hundreds (thousands?) of feat options is more feats.
We have been infiltrated by that most dreaded of monster, the D&D 5th ed. player! Beware, for this encounter has a high Challenge Rating and strange abilities... In all seriousness, being able to just pick up a Rapier with a high DEX character and use it without having to spend valuable resources to become competent at doing so is one of my favourite things about 5th edition, along with full caster Bards.
reach weapon + armor spikes for AoO at close still work, it is only twf that is out (until the next FAQ I guess)
So when do they get around to nerfing Clerics and Wizards?
We have been infiltrated by that most dreaded of monster, the D&D 5th ed. player! Beware, for this encounter has a high Challenge Rating and strange abilities... In all seriousness, being able to just pick up a Rapier with a high DEX character and use it without having to spend valuable resources to become competent at doing so is one of my favourite things about 5th edition, along with full caster Bards.
To be fair, I've felt this way long before 5th Edition was even announced.
But yes, I've been enjoying the heck out of it in 5th. ;D
reach weapon + armor spikes for AoO at close still work, it is only twf that is out (until the next FAQ I guess)So when do they get around to nerfing Clerics and Wizards?The million dollar question
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qqmv?Are-balance-issues-more-likely-to-be#1
Now now, the Devs have told us that the martial/caster disparity is nothing but an evil myth propagated by conspirators with a sinister agenda.
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That doesn't appear to be the case in 5th edition, despite the preaching in this thread of how important it is to keep dex-to-damage out of people's hands so those poor 2 handed strength fighters don't end up being replaced by the clearly massively advantageous sword&board and TWF builds.
Because if there's one thing we know about Pathfinder, it's that those 3 fighting styles are in a delicate balance, with no single one being massively more powerful than the other two.
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That doesn't appear to be the case in 5th edition, despite the preaching in this thread of how important it is to keep dex-to-damage out of people's hands so those poor 2 handed strength fighters don't end up being replaced by the clearly massively advantageous sword&board and TWF builds.
Because if there's one thing we know about Pathfinder, it's that those 3 fighting styles are in a delicate balance, with no single one being massively more powerful than the other two.
Heh, no sarcasm tags necessary. :)
As has been pointed out, the Fighter, due to heavy armor usage, is the class that benefits least from Dex-to-Damage. Classes limited to light armor really, really get insane boosts from it (not needing Str to move in heavy armor, but needing Dex for AC and then...they get to use it for everything else, too!) And even in Medium armor the benefits are pretty large.
Nevertheless, someone posted a viable Dex-to-Damage halfling Fighter with 5 Str. Sorry, but 5 Str should not be viable on the front lines of a battle. I'm not just saying it shouldn't be optimal. I mean it should be as useless as a 5 Int Wizard.
I would agree with this if two things were true.
1) if the wizard needed more than his intelligence to be effective.2) if I thought realism was important to enforce upon game mechanics.
Since neither are true....
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Actually - I've heard in many of the 5th ed reviews that one negative is that they have to come up with fluff reasons to actually use strength instead of dexterity.
And if you don't care about realism - why do you even want dex to damage? Just pretend that strength is dex.
Actually - I've heard in many of the 5th ed reviews that one negative is that they have to come up with fluff reasons to actually use strength instead of dexterity.
And if you don't care about realism - why do you even want dex to damage? Just pretend that strength is dex.
Because dexterity, as in your dexterity score, is not actually your dexterity so much as it is a meta game construct that has certain effects. The whole point of stat consolidation is to take the meta games bias towards single stat dependency and help those classes that have too many conflicting ability score needs and bringing them closer to the standard game expectations.
I don't care about realism because the game doesn't care either. The game is designed with monsters and stat blocks to challenge a big beefy dude with a two handed weapon. If you ignore that, then you end up with your dashing han solo type who can't actually do any of the things he's supposed to be able to do. That's why these arguments are so annoying to me because it really just comes down to a small group of players not getting to have fun because realism.
As an aside, charisma can be used for every save, armor class and initiative at this point if you were unaware.
Okay, I want to clarify that I am talking about the game as it exists, not some other game that you wish it was. If you want everyone to be more mad, then give it a shot, but be prepared to change just about every metric the system works under. I prefer to facilitate fun when I play games. If someone wants to be a super agile ninja type that cavitates the atmosphere with his blade? Sounds cool, let's do it. Realism and frustration are inextricably linked in pathfinder.
@Oly The charisma based initiative and armor stuff comes from the Oracle class. An Oracle can have his armor, initiative, spells and saves coming from charisma pretty early(like immediately, or near enough) but then its magic so realism can go away.
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Full divine casting Clerics and Oracles would also be helped by Dex to damage (FULL CASTERS, OMG!), as they can't wear heavy armor and thus can dump Str and be good martially while getting extra AC from Dex.
Someone needs to tell my oracle of battle he's doing it wrong.
Heavy armor proficiency + full martial weapon proficiency from first level.