I am running a group of 6 through scenarios (younger players) and they all chose martial characters for the most part, (one wizard) and I think they need someone who can heal.
I am encouraging one of the players to swap to a more heal capable character and want some advice. He does not want to play a Cleric, but wants to be able to channel heal when needed. Is there a channel healing class that can: use a pet, and melee relatively effectively?
Paladin.
Hospitaler Paladin. Done.
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Channel energy is a mediocre ability of a cleric. If it is PFS most players can get by with a wand of cure light wounds for 2PP. It t ruely is lackluster compared to what a cleric can do with standard actions.
No what your guy really wants to do is be a evangelist reach cleric since he wants to play fighter type. He would be making the group a better place with all those martial types.
He can choose 1 of 4 of these domains: Ferocity (strength) for offense, heroism (glory) for defenses/buffing, or travel for mobility, Feather (animal) for the animal companion/offense.
Give him a reach weapon...long spear works good.
Dont worry about being in light armor as it is not that bad of a thing with a cleric. He will be reaching into the front lines but will still be behind a meat shield he is buffing.
He will be looking at the feats: combat reflexes, lingering performance, power attack as his first few feats. Depending how he is building will determine what other feats to take.
If he takes Animal domain @ 5 he will want boon companion
If he is focused on melee prowess weapon focus is ever nice.
if he focuses on buffing extend spell is nice
All clerics must take divine interruption @ 11 or they are committing sacrilege.
Stats are easy peezy:
For PFS you need less full dumps because PFS does not call for full optimization. I suggest:
Human or Half Breeds
Str:13+2=15, dex 13, con 14, int 12, wisdom 14, cha 12
(Level ups go +1 str @ 4, and +1 dex @8.)
This gives him 3-4 skills, plenty of wisdom to cast till he gets +wisdom headband, and good reach melee stats. PFS isn't all about fighting..skills play a role...
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Another +1 for Hospitaler Paladin. He can use the wand of CLW at the beginning, then lay on hands at level 2, and channel energy multiple times a day at level 4. Start him out with a combat-trained horse (or if he's small, a combat-trained wolf) when he can afford one, and then at 5th level it becomes his divine mount.
If this wasn't for a kid's game, I'd suggest an Oradin which is a great combination of heal and combat, but that would delay him getting his pet (unless he went half-elf, and got a familiar off eldritch heritage -- and still it would delay the pet until 3rd level.)
I've started an Oradin character in PFS, but I am still in just my Paladin levels.
Aside to Rory: This is for a PFS game. All rules must be RAW, no homebrew.
Hmm
EDIT: Ninja'd by Fruian. Again!
Orcale with flame mysteries if you want a blaster/healer.
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What classes are in play exactly? A common practise for PFS players is spending the first two prestige points on a wand of cure light wounds, which tends to remove any difficulty in out of combat healing. In combat healing is generally not the best idea anyway, so it works out.
I would recommend every single character purchasing a wand of cure light wounds for themselves, as it means that everyone is responsible for their own healing resources, rather than draining one person's wealth.
I agree with the suggestions to buy wands of CLW, but somebody needs to be able to use the wand consistently. I wonder if the need couldn't be addressed with a splash of multi-classing though.
Forcing a young player to slog through a campaign using class abilities and spells to heal the party could be a discouraging experience. Wands are clearly the way to go for healing between combats. I personally think that in combat healing can have great value too, but it isn't really essential in lower powered games.
Is Infernal Healing available in PFS? If so I think the Wizard could handle that.
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Wizards can use infernal healing. Rangers and paladins (both of which are badass martial classes) have the ability to use a wand of cure light wounds from level 1 on.
A battle oracle is also a great mix between casting and fighting, and you're definitely able to throw some healing into the mix.
hospitaler pally is kinda gimped because they channel at 3 lvls lower than the normal sure they can do it all day, but are only good at healing out of combat.
I useally just go normal pally with extra lay on hands feat taken several times and use shield other on who I expect to take the most damage.
Since you can lay on hands yourself as a swift you can absorb some of that xtra damage to yourself and broadcast channel energy to keep the rest of your party healed.
If you do it this way the only stats you really need are
1. Chr max it out for saves and more lay on hands + helps your smite for when you get a chance to beat on things.
2. Con should be your second choice with shield other your gonna be taking xtra damage so you'll need some xtra hps
3. wis should be 14
But then again in the games I play in tend to be much more deadly than PFS
You might also check out some Oradin (Oracle/Paladin) builds.
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I agree a paladin will give you what you were asking about.
also
Krell, can I ask how you came to the conclusion that they should get a "healer"? Can I also ask specifically what you mean by "healer"?
+1
I've been playing and GM'ing a fair amount of PFS. I would say a healer is rarely needed (though it can be useful).
I believe every character (especially in PFS) should buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or Wand of Infernal Healing (free with either their first or second 2 prestige points).
After that the PC's can alternate for other condition removal consumable items. One buys a Wand of Lesser Restoration, another gets a Potion of Remove Blindness, the third purchases a Potion of Remove Disease, Scroll of Restoration, Scroll of Neutralize Poison, etc...
That and some saved prestige points will cover about any eventualities.
Even a martial character with a crappy charisma could take skill focus UMD and a few skill points to fairly reliably use the wands on everyone as needed.
Wizards can use infernal healing. Rangers and paladins (both of which are badass martial classes) have the ability to use a wand of cure light wounds from level 1 on.
And they both have a lot of other good powers, too. Just make sure the ranger doesn't use an archetype that trades out spells. (I like the Freebooter archetype: point to a bad guy and say, "Sic 'im, guys!" Everyone gets +1 attack and damage.)
Also remember that wands do not provoke in combat, so that helps if they need to keep someone from dying.
On channeling:
The primary advantage of the channel is that it heals everyone at the same time, and you don't need to be next to them. This makes area effect spells much less devastating, and you can save two or more people a round. At lower levels, groups can easily get by with just wands, but once you start running into fireballs and unholy blights, channeling is extremely helpful. You don't need a lot of channels and you certainly don't want to use every action on them, but having a channel or two in your arsenal makes a group much more likely to survive.
+1 for Paladin / Oradin... or if healing > channel as an option, maybe a Lunar Oracle with a tiger companion.
-TimD
Current Party Make-up:
Paladin-Built for Melee/Front Line
Rogue-Built for Melee-A bit of a loose cannon (main reason I want a healer around as this player seems to act first, check for traps after he is bleeding from them)
Druid-Feral Build
2 Hunters-Both Archery Builds
Wizard-Blaster
I am well aware the value of Wands, and am encouraging them to pick them up before we level to 2. I also know that the majority of those classes will be able to use those wands with no issues. My concern is more along the lines of the young players not fully understanding what death will mean to their player in PFS play, and the desire (my own) to let their first experience carry more of the traditional gaming "group" setting that they see while playing computer games. I understand this may not be required, but I think they need to work together and rely on one another to complete missions. Tank, Melee, Ranged, Healer may not be ideal but I think it will offer them the most protection for a long term characters life. Perhaps they dont care.
My definition of a healer is a character who can keep the party alive while in the middle of combat. Out of combat healing can be done just fine by anyone with a wand, but drop a fireball on half the party and have the mooks move in to melee could leave them in a world of hurt if all they have is a couple wands. Perhaps this is the way the game is supposed to be played. Personally, I will give up a couple turns of damage so that a dedicated healer type can channel to keep players health topped off.
That said, given this groups setup (3 pets for crying out loud) should keep the majority of players away from lots of damage if they learn how to use tactics in combat.
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I think maybe you should take a lesson from the kids and let fun and freedom reign. You've got a couple of "half" healers, and since it sounds like Infernal Healing is legal in PFS wands should be a very affordable way to heal between combat.
A lot of folks will say that if you're healing during combat you're doing it wrong. I wouldn't go that far, but in combat healing in a game where CR is close to APL and the DM isn't a tactics freak should generally be an "emergency" situation. The Paladin and Druid can probably handle such emergencies.
I'm a big fan of using improved familiars as wand jockeys for buffing, and they can team up with the PCs in emergency healing situations. If you're really set on having somebody use Channel Energy for healing during combat I guess Quicken Channel can let the player have a better chance of experiencing some fun on his or her turn.
and selective channel so they don't heal the enemies.
And the reason they say healing in combat is wrong, is because the enemies are dealing 16 damage, and you're healing 8, you're losing. You going and killing the guy and stopping the 16 damage is better than trying to heal. You making a wall, or a summoned creature, or stun, or dazed, or etc... Also prevent the 16 damage. This is why people say pathfinder is rocket tag. It's a race to kill each other first and then heal up afterwards to do it again.
"Rocket tag" is like Nuclear Pathfinder. Other playing styles can be very successful if the DM pursues a non-proliferation strategy where CR is generally around APL. I'd think that PFS should epitomize that style of play even more than Adventure Paths.
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Tank, Melee, Ranged, Healer ... I think it will offer them the most protection for a long term characters life.
With respect, I disagree.
It is necessary that everyone contributes.
It is not necessary that powerful in-combat healing be a method of doing so.
I have two retired PFS characters, another at 8th level, and a couple more at 3rd level. The vast majority of tables I've played at have not used in-combat healing. One of my retired characters was a cleric: he was capable of casting spontaneous cures and (once he was high enough level) generally carried a prepared heal. I can think of one fight where he cast cures, and he never cast heal.
Spending a turn to heal HP damage is sometimes the best use of a character's action, but such occasions will be rare enough that if you just make sure everyone carries an "emergency potion", maybe have the druid prep a couple slots of cures, you'll be fine.
To put it another way: the parties that most need a healer are the ones that already have one, because it means they don't have something else instead to help end fights.
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how to let kids have fun
step 1: tell them what to do
Also for me, when I play final fantasy games or the like, I don't run a healer in my party. I fight, and then use a non-active party member to heal up my active party.
And healing in combat will often feel lame and unfun, since you don't actually do anything to help the fight end faster. Even a bard singing giving everyone buffs can feel he makes the fight go faster.
In all honesty, Im worried that they will reach level 4, and one of the characters will die.
That said, I must realize that there may be many reasons why that player died and it may not come down to the point where a burst heal may have even saved them anyway.
I will let them decide how they want to play, and I will do my best to not be concerned with the healing side of things. As I stated before, I understand that running a healer is not optimal from an experienced Pathfinder standpoint, nor is it the best choice for an action in most combat situations. But, I am working with a younger player base who are nowhere near any type of optimization level for maximizing their damage output. Now, I have offered them tips on their build (mostly by asking for advice on these boards which has been awesome) but it is still each players choice to take what I say and use it.
As an example laid out before me: The bad guy does 16 damage, while the healer burst heals for 8. True statement, this will not extend the life cycle much longer. But, it also doesn't help when the character who would have spent the heal instead moves to an attack position, and swings and misses. The bad guy has still done 16 damage, and there was zero healing. But yes, I get it.
So I turn for a bit more advice. What are the best feats etc to take at early levels to increase chance to hit. Weapon Focus? What else?
Current Party Make-up:
Paladin-Built for Melee/Front Line
Rogue-Built for Melee-A bit of a loose cannon (main reason I want a healer around as this player seems to act first, check for traps after he is bleeding from them)
Druid-Feral Build
2 Hunters-Both Archery Builds
Wizard-Blaster
It looks to me like this group has plenty of healing already.
When the rogue sets off a trap, provided it doesn't cause combat there is usually time to heal them back up. That plus it gives them an incentive to learn...
In combat they smash things, after combat they use the wands. Starting at 4th level the Paladin can channel if they really want to. If they find themselves needing that, it probably means the Paladin uses their 5th level feat to pick up Selective Channelling, but they might be better off ignoring that and going on the offensive instead.
The druid can spontaneously bring in Summon Nature's Ally to fill up the combat field. Works great if someone withdraws and then the summon comes into the vacated area. The person just needs to withdraw before they would have gone down.
The first time they play it may be a bit difficult since they don't have a happy stick, but after that if each gets a wand of CLW they should be fine. Just pick a first module that is fairly straight forward and has CLW potions available in it.
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A lot of folks will say that if you're healing during combat you're doing it wrong. I wouldn't go that far, but in combat healing in a game where CR is close to APL and the DM isn't a tactics freak should generally be an "emergency" situation. The Paladin and Druid can probably handle such emergencies.
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I will agree with this. I will not say you should never heal in combat. if someone is about to die, it is more economical to heal them enough to survive than to raise them from the dead. However, that should be rare (especially in PFS).
For those occasional times where someone is about to die, a channel from the druid or a scroll used by the paladin, druid, or the hunters should be sufficient. Does mean they probably should spend the money on a few scrolls though.
Healing in combat as a normal tactic only keeps ahead of the damage being done if you really build to specialize in healing. Most players do not enjoy that type of character, though a few do. I done it successfully and it was kinda kool. The healer PC functioned as a hugantic hit point battery and very nearly made the characters unkillable as long as the fights didn't go on too long and there weren't too many each day. But like I said most people won't enjoy playing a character like that.
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But, it also doesn't help when the character who would have spent the heal instead moves to an attack position, and swings and misses.
It helps exactly as much as if the recipient of the healing swung and missed. This of course means the question is: Which gives the greatest chance of getting additional hits/damage? Enabling more rounds of attacks from PC1? Or adding a series of attacks from PC2? The answer depends on each PC's chance of hitting, how much damage they do, and how much PC2 could extend PC1's rounds of contribution. (Interestingly, the math here works out such that almost the only time the answer is "enabling more rounds of attacks from PC1" is when PC2 was already built as such a dedicated healer that he hits like a wet noodle; see my prior comment about groups with healers being the only ones that need them.)
So I turn for a bit more advice. What are the best feats etc to take at early levels to increase chance to hit. Weapon Focus? What else?
Heroism will be great when you get it, especially considering the duration. Even carefully-rationed scrolls/potions can be great.
Having the Paladin take the Battle Cry feat could also be an option.
Having multiple PCs/pets take Outflank could be useful, while also teaching tactics.
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Basic Forge of Combat tactical evaluation of this group:
Sounds like these young players are off to a great start. Sounds like they are ready to up their tactical game a little. An ideal, well balanced party covers each of these three roles :
Hammer -> Inflicts HP damage
Anvil -> Battlefield Control
Arm -> Support (which may include some healing)
This party has:
Paladin-Built for Melee/Front Line -> Hammer
Rogue-Built for Melee- -> Hammer
Druid-Feral Build -> Hammer
2 Hunters-Both Archery Builds - both Hammers
Wizard-Blaster -> Hammer
This group has six Hammers, no Anvil, and no Arm. This is not a well-balanced group, and is likely to suffer a bit as a result. The OP clearly sensed this. Perhaps these blurbs describe what the group is experiencing:
Groups without Anvils: Groups without anvils typically end up having an overabundance of hammers with one or two members playing the part of arms. These groups typically have fast, furious fights where the group takes a lot of damage. In these situations the arms often take on a reactive role providing healing and buffs as able while the hammers frantically try to end the encounter quickly. Depending on the nature of the hammers this often drains the arms very quickly of resources or forces the hammers into more and more defensive roles draining overall resources more as the group is not ending encounters efficiently enough.
Groups without Arms: Perhaps the most forgiving of the three major imbalances. These groups usually spend more resources than necessary to finish an encounter. When they don’t they exist on a razor’s edge where an enemies passed save or a characters failed save can mean the difference between failure and victory. This is much worse in groups that lack the means to magically heal themselves and are thus forced into shorter adventuring days or burning wealth on tons of cure light wound wands.
Sounds like they need both an Anvil and an Arm.
The Wizard could easily choose to cover the Anvil role by changing around spells prepared. E.g. Sometimes cast Grease instead of Burning Hands. The Druid can also help with this by casting the occasional Summon Nature's Ally. Summoning can be a very effective form of Battlefield Control. The Wizard can also help cover the Arm role with spells like Enlarge Person. Have they figured out, yet, how tremendously effective it is to put Enlarge Person on a martial combatant with a polearm?
They also lack any sort of Arm. They DO have basic out-of-combat healing covered, with a Paladin, a Druid, and a Wizard who can cast Infernal Healing. Everyone should own some sort of healing wand. They DO NOT have any sort of support buff ability, which is probably more valuable than in-combat healing. A character with Inspire Courage (i.e. a Bard or Evangelist Cleric) will be a huge force multiplier for that big pack of martial PCs. I'm with Fruian, above, that an Evangelist Cleric would be the best addition to the party. Perhaps a total bad@$$ negative channeling reach-style battle cleric, rather than an inferior healbot cleric.
Any sort of all-group combat buffs will be immensely effective for this martial-oriented group. Combine some all-group combat buffs with a dash of Battlefield Control and this group is unlikely to need in combat healing.
It's been my experience that most groups that rely on in-combat healing don't use effective Battlefield Control, which is why they think they need a lot of in-combat healing. The most efficient way to heal in combat is to avoid taking the damage in the first place. There are always exceptions, of course.
So I turn for a bit more advice. What are the best feats etc to take at early levels to increase chance to hit. Weapon Focus? What else?
Furious Focus if they took Power Attack. I suspect this would only apply to the Paladin.
Weapon Finesse if Dex is better than Str -- like it often is on a rogue.
Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot for all archery builds. It is almost required to cancel out the penalties for firing into combat.
It isn't just feats though. The druid and hunters could take Entangle to cause the bad guys to hit less.
Magda, so what might a negative channel, reach Cleric look like statwise/featwise?
Also, if a Cleric is channeling negative energy wouldn't the party be taking damage as well? Even if they were Selective Channeling and excluding 4 players, that would leave the 6 person party and 3 animal companions with multiples in the group most likely taking damage.
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Spirit Guide Oracle 9 - (Life/Life)
Spirit Whisperer Wizard 1 (Life)
Cleric 1 (Variant Channel - Disease)
w/ Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Result:
1 + CHA - 7d6 Channel (Oracle)
1 + CHA - 7d6 Channel (Oracle Spirit)
1 + CHA - 3d6 Channel (Wizard)
3 + CHA - (3d6)/2 Channel + 3 Points of Ability Damage Heal (Cleric)
CHANNEL FOR DAYS ON END!!!!
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There are several different types of cleric, each very different. One very powerful negative channeling Cleric is the Hangover cleric. The idea is mess with foes' ability to function, and leave most of the direct HP damage to the PCs with pointy sharp things. It's the epitome of the Anvil-style Battlefield Control specialist.
With such a large party negative channeling gets tricky to use. The cleric player and the rest of the team needs to understand what's coming and use smart tactics. I.e. Movement discipline is essential, else you either blast allies or can't channel at all. Experienced groups pull this off routinely, but this might be too advanced for new players.
I'm also a bit concerned that such a character might overshadow the others. The Wizard is being played as a blaster, which is generally the least effective way to play a wizard (unless also using metamagic for Battlefield Control). Adding such a powerful Cleric character might cause the others to feel that 'I'm just here to finish things off once that guy disables them'.
I've both played and GMd for this sort of character plenty of times, from levels 1 to 15. The bottom of this post has build suggestions.
In a party with so many Hammers it probably would not make sense to invest a lot in melee combat. Just STR 14 and a longspear are quite enough to be effective, considering all the buff options. E.g. a mere 4th level cleric can do self-buffs that increase to hit by +7 and damage by +9. Do you really need more than that?
If the PCs are having trouble hitting foes the best solution might be better tactics. At low levels allowing melee foes to come to you and suffer AoOs from reach can be very effective. That's even more true with a couple of archers plinking away from the back and a Wizard who can potentially set up some battlefield control. The Pit spells are pretty cool for this.
Once melee is joined flanking can be very helpful. There's also simple stuff like making sure the PCs have a decent AC so they won't get hit as often. In narrow spots and doorways a Paladin with a shield can use Lay on Hands to block things up and protect the squishier PCs for quite a while. Fighting defensively can help too, especially if the attack bonus from Smite Evil makes the penalty to hit less problematic.
The Druid's animal companion if any could become a Bodyguard. The defensive value of that ranges from decent with the basic +2 to borderline ridiculous if benevolent armor is available (not sure if it is for PFS). I'm also not sure if wands of Good Hope are available in PFS. It is a very nice buff though.
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A PFS table requires from 4-6 players. While it's allowed for the GM to sometimes play a pregen, if it's the only way to fill the table, it's strongly discouraged. In general, a GMPC isn't a good idea. Personally, I think a GM-controlled healbot is a terrible idea, because it instills all the wrong tactical lessons. Groups who learn to use effective Battlefield Control, and other smart tactics, won't need a healbot.
I agree that the Wizard ought to at least consider Mystic Theurge. Unfortunately, one must build for MT at character creation, so switching later usually doesn't work well. Sometimes it does, though ...
Suggesting Mystic Theurge sounds like a nasty trick to play on a little kid.
One thing I'm not sure about for PFS is how difficult it is to buy Restoration if needed. Not having access to that can be a real drag if you happen to fail a Fort save to remove a negative level.
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Suggesting Mystic Theurge sounds like a nasty trick to play on a little kid.
Might be okay if you go Trickery domain for early entry, but even just trying to keep up with all those prepared spells could be a nightmare.
One thing I'm not sure about for PFS is how difficult it is to buy Restoration if needed. Not having access to that can be a real drag if you happen to fail a Fort save to remove a negative level.
Spellcasting services are pretty accessible, actually. Between scenarios, an undefined amount of time passes so you can travel to Absalom (or wherever) and easily purchase whatever spells you need. You can even spend Prestige instead of gold if you like.
So lacking a spell like restoration only matters if you're desperate to clear the condition but you're on a serious time crunch or you're out in the boonies somewhere.
Suggesting Mystic Theurge sounds like a nasty trick to play on a little kid.
One thing I'm not sure about for PFS is how difficult it is to buy Restoration if needed. Not having access to that can be a real drag if you happen to fail a Fort save to remove a negative level.
I don't understand. What's wrong with Mystic Theurge? I'm developing a MT right now.
Spell progression is gimped, even if you use SLAs to qualify three levels early. You'll be down a level of access. Its livable though.
The Mystic Theurge can be great at very high levels when you can cast practically everything. Slogging through the low levels suffering with wimpy spells seems like it wouldn't be much fun for a new young player when compared to the joys of Fireball.
I also personally feel that one of the best ways to make up for some of the weaknesses of the Mystic Theurge is using metamagic rods. You can't craft items in PFS, so that could be a little tougher. I think PFS also ends at 12th level, too early for the MT to get big spells like Heal. I'm just talking about the traditional MT here though, not early access variants which only give up 1 level of casting.