What...what are you doing to Von Doom????!!!!???


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Sovereign Court

If Disney *FINALLY* gets to buy Spidey/FF back:

JAMES SPADER FOR VICTOR VON DOOM!!!


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

If Disney *FINALLY* gets to buy Spidey/FF back:

JAMES SPADER FOR VICTOR VON DOOM!!!

He's already Ultron. And don't say Benedict Cumberbatch either.

Sovereign Court

ULTRON mcu created by DOOM. Boom. Fade to black as Doom monitors the defeat of his creation from his throne in Latveria. Now that's better. Wendy's burgers.

Shadow Lodge

Kalshane wrote:
Hama wrote:
There is very little I like about the Ultimate universe. Now even less.

I liked Ultimate Spider-man, and thought some of the concepts of the other heroes were interesting (ie What if Thor is just a delusional mutant with weather powers?) but in the end I found myself hating every super-hero that didn't appear in Ultimate Spidey, and even some that did. Eventually even the shine on USM started wearing off for me for about a year before they killed him off, so I dropped that book as well.

I think there's a difference between flawed heroes and a bunch of jackwads with super powers that happen to beat up people that are even bigger jackwads.

Sadly, the Ultimate Universe is almost entirely populated with said jackwads.

There were times when Ultimate X-Men was good. But yeah, for the most part, Ultimate Marvel other than Spidey was a fail. Which is doubly sad, as Ultimate Spider-Man was the best Spidey title being published for at least the entire Peter Parker run. (I've tried to give a damn about Miles, but I can't seem to manage.)


Kthulhu wrote:

There were times when Ultimate X-Men was good. But yeah, for the most part, Ultimate Marvel other than Spidey was a fail. Which is doubly sad, as Ultimate Spider-Man was the best Spidey title being published for at least the entire Peter Parker run. (I've tried to give a damn about Miles, but I can't seem to manage.)

Yeah, I was reading Ultimate X-Men for awhile, too, and enjoying it, for the most part, right up until they turned Nightcrawler (one of my favorite characters) into an obsessive psychopath. I toughed it out until they turned Colossus (another favorite) into a drug addict. At which point I was done.

Shadow Lodge

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Then again, I'm not fond of what they did with 616 Nightcrawler, either. I prefer the cheerful fuzzy swashbuckler. Not the dour zealout.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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They could go with "Victoria Von Doom."


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Aranna wrote:

Doom however needed a rewrite. And some crazy hacktivist blogger might appeal to the coffee shop hipster crowd.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! he didn't! he just DID NOT!

To the Nine Hells with the coffee shop hipster crowd! they can choose to make something else - ANYTHING ELSE! - completely irrelevant!

What this guy said.


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Lord Fyre wrote:
They could go with "Victoria Von Doom."

If, gender aside, the role was faithful to the Doom of the comics, I'd rather that than hacktivist Doom. Besides, a love triangle could be interesting, no matter which of the Richards couple she were interested in.


Hacker Doom is a terrible idea - but computer industry mogul Doom may be a concept with traction. It gives him resources, it gives him reach, it puts him at the forefront of modern technology.

I don't have very high hopes for this FF movie.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lord Fyre wrote:
They could go with "Victoria Von Doom."

More like Valeria von Doom.


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Let's turn the question on its head.

Aranna, since you're the only one (at least vocally) defending this decision, WHY do you believe Doom needed a rewrite/reconceptualization?


I think doom needs a rewrite too, if only because a lot of what people see as him nowadays comes out of bad communism stereotypes in the 80s. He got some needed reworking in that time period, but the question of who was Doom in the Doom wars was bad. He needs to be revitalized into something less stereotypical.

Sovereign Court

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Freehold DM wrote:
I think doom needs a rewrite too, if only because a lot of what people see as him nowadays comes out of bad communism stereotypes in the 80s. He got some needed reworking in that time period, but the question of who was Doom in the Doom wars was bad. He needs to be revitalized into something less stereotypical.

You say stereotype; I say archetype. :P

Shadow Lodge

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A properly done Doom should include both his mastery of science AND magic. The later is often forgotten about, but Doom is actually capable of things that Richards can't hope to achieve when the writers remember that one of his (nearly unique in the comios) skills is the ability to combine magic and science to achieve what neither is capable of alone.

Scarab Sages

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Kthulhu wrote:
A properly done Doom should include both his mastery of science AND magic. The later is often forgotten about, but Doom is actually capable of things that Richards can't hope to achieve when the writers remember that one of his (nearly unique in the comios) skills is the ability to combine magic and science to achieve what neither is capable of alone.

Indeed! Some of my favorite Dr. Doom appearances show off his skill at magic. Wasn't he once considered (or at least eligible) for the role of Sorcerer Supreme?

But, yeah, angry hipster blogger Doom is an idiotic idea. Whoever came up with that crap should be banned from the movie-making industry forever, as a service to mankind.


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Kthulhu wrote:
A properly done Doom should include both his mastery of science AND magic. The later is often forgotten about, but Doom is actually capable of things that Richards can't hope to achieve when the writers remember that one of his (nearly unique in the comios) skills is the ability to combine magic and science to achieve what neither is capable of alone.

always loved that about him.

Shadow Lodge

Aberzombie wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
A properly done Doom should include both his mastery of science AND magic. The later is often forgotten about, but Doom is actually capable of things that Richards can't hope to achieve when the writers remember that one of his (nearly unique in the comios) skills is the ability to combine magic and science to achieve what neither is capable of alone.

Indeed! Some of my favorite Dr. Doom appearances show off his skill at magic. Wasn't he once considered (or at least eligible) for the role of Sorcerer Supreme?

But, yeah, angry hipster blogger Doom is an idiotic idea. Whoever came up with that crap should be banned from the movie-making industry forever, as a service to mankind.

When Strange became Sorcerer Supreme, Doom participated in the battle royals. He came in second only to Strange...by his own plan. This meant that Strange owed him a favor...Doom used it to finally.rescue his mother's soul from Mephisto.


Kthulhu wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
A properly done Doom should include both his mastery of science AND magic. The later is often forgotten about, but Doom is actually capable of things that Richards can't hope to achieve when the writers remember that one of his (nearly unique in the comios) skills is the ability to combine magic and science to achieve what neither is capable of alone.

Indeed! Some of my favorite Dr. Doom appearances show off his skill at magic. Wasn't he once considered (or at least eligible) for the role of Sorcerer Supreme?

But, yeah, angry hipster blogger Doom is an idiotic idea. Whoever came up with that crap should be banned from the movie-making industry forever, as a service to mankind.

When Strange became Sorcerer Supreme, Doom participated in the battle royals. He came in second only to Strange...by his own plan. This meant that Strange owed him a favor...Doom used it to finally.rescue his mother's soul from Mephisto.

When did that get retconned in?

When were there battle royals for Strange becoming Sorcerer Supreme, anyway? Or was that one of the times he reclaimed the title?

Shadow Lodge

It was a graphic novel that came out probably at least 20 years ago.


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Orthos wrote:

Let's turn the question on its head.

Aranna, since you're the only one (at least vocally) defending this decision, WHY do you believe Doom needed a rewrite/reconceptualization?

I have already explained this. But I will try again.

The Old Dr Doom isn't the comic book version for most people, myself included. The Old Dr Doom is the original Fantastic Four movie version. And I have yet to hear ANY praise for THAT Dr Doom. He was lame and NEEDS a rewrite. I wasn't intending to specifically say that hacktivist Doom was the "way to go" or anything like that. But as far as fresh takes on a character go I could see it working out. The idea here isn't to appeal to the hundreds of thousands of rabid readers of comics featuring Dr Doom, but rather to appeal to the millions of movie fans many of whom never really got into comics themselves. In effect they are trying to recreate a franchise which is only "based on" the comics and subject it to a far bigger and often more critical audience.

I will admit their track record so far doesn't fill me with hope for the new version... but it is certainly worth a go see. If they get it right this time around it will become the new standard for what the Fantastic Four really IS. If it fails it will just become another forgotten movie used as space filler on cable TV.


IIRC, the old movie version isn't the comic version either. Doom did not get powers from the same accident that created the Fantastic Four (nor does he really have any - it's the suit, the brains, and the sorcery he learned). He's pretty much a self-made monster.


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Aranna wrote:
Orthos wrote:

Let's turn the question on its head.

Aranna, since you're the only one (at least vocally) defending this decision, WHY do you believe Doom needed a rewrite/reconceptualization?

I have already explained this. But I will try again.

The Old Dr Doom isn't the comic book version for most people, myself included. The Old Dr Doom is the original Fantastic Four movie version. And I have yet to hear ANY praise for THAT Dr Doom. He was lame and NEEDS a rewrite. I wasn't intending to specifically say that hacktivist Doom was the "way to go" or anything like that. But as far as fresh takes on a character go I could see it working out. The idea here isn't to appeal to the hundreds of thousands of rabid readers of comics featuring Dr Doom, but rather to appeal to the millions of movie fans many of whom never really got into comics themselves. In effect they are trying to recreate a franchise which is only "based on" the comics and subject it to a far bigger and often more critical audience.

I will admit their track record so far doesn't fill me with hope for the new version... but it is certainly worth a go see. If they get it right this time around it will become the new standard for what the Fantastic Four really IS. If it fails it will just become another forgotten movie used as space filler on cable TV.

I don't think anyone objects to the idea that the Dr. Doom needs a rewrite from the last movie version, just that the rewrite should be in the classic direction.

I'm too deep into it to really say, but I really doubt that a 10 year old lousy movie version is really what most people remember of Dr. Doom. Even most people who remember him at all. With 50 years of comics and plenty of appearances in cartoons and games and other media, mostly pretty close to his iconic image, I don't think one flop of a movie wipes that all out.
Use that. Both because it will fit with whatever conception people have of the villain and because it's a great villain.


No thejeff.
Just look at the numbers. The people who were introduced to the comic version of Dr Doom were among the 300,000 readers in the 1960's... And very few of them stuck with the comic over the years. I mean they sell in the low tens of thousands now. These are a tiny number of people compared to the 10s of millions of people who watched the Fantastic Four movie just in it's opening night not to mention the huge numbers who have seen it on cable or DVD since. Very tiny indeed. NO the version of Dr Doom most of the world was introduced to was the movie version. BUT wait you exclaim! If not comics then surely games and other media is the true version people were introduced to! While there may be a bit of truth in this remember that these appearances in games and other media DO NOT include much if anything about Dr Doom's history or motivations beyond just being super villain of the week. Certainly not enough to cause any concern over what direction they decide to go with in the reboot.


Grey Lensman wrote:
IIRC, the old movie version isn't the comic version either. Doom did not get powers from the same accident that created the Fantastic Four (nor does he really have any - it's the suit, the brains, and the sorcery he learned). He's pretty much a self-made monster.

Keep in mind that the movie version WAS FOX's attempt to stay true to Dr Doom's comic roots. I for one do not want more of THAT.

PS: I am betting that most of the team at FOX haven't read any old Dr Doom at all.


thejeff wrote:

The rumor actually sets it's set in the past when Aunt May was a spy.

Aunt May as a spy is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. I can be down with the idea that Peter's lost parents had some cool mysterious background and that's why they're dead. But AUNT MAY? Give me a break.


Dr Doom's only real power is the ability to switch souls with someone else nearby, something he does at least twice in the comics. The rest is resources, skills, magic and so on.


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Aranna wrote:

No thejeff.

Just look at the numbers. The people who were introduced to the comic version of Dr Doom were among the 300,000 readers in the 1960's... And very few of them stuck with the comic over the years. I mean they sell in the low tens of thousands now. These are a tiny number of people compared to the 10s of millions of people who watched the Fantastic Four movie just in it's opening night not to mention the huge numbers who have seen it on cable or DVD since. Very tiny indeed. NO the version of Dr Doom most of the world was introduced to was the movie version. BUT wait you exclaim! If not comics then surely games and other media is the true version people were introduced to! While there may be a bit of truth in this remember that these appearances in games and other media DO NOT include much if anything about Dr Doom's history or motivations beyond just being super villain of the week. Certainly not enough to cause any concern over what direction they decide to go with in the reboot.

1) I suspect you're drastically underestimating the number of people who are familiar with Dr. Doom from the comics. Certainly it's not just those few who've been reading since the 60s, but all those who read the FF at any point since then and have fond memories. Plus all the cartoons and games and things - which while they may not all have gone into great detail, generally struck the iconic notes for the character.

2) By your argument the only thing the vast majority of the audience knows about Dr. Doom is that he was a lousy character in a bad movie. If that's the only draw, why use him at all? If that had been the character's first appearance and there wasn't a well of previous interest to draw on, do you really think they'd be trying to bring him back in a different form?

3) Much of this doesn't really matter. I don't think you need to recreate Doom exactly as he was in the comics to appease the admittedly few hard-core comics geeks. That's not the point. The point is that there are reasons the character has long been one of the most popular super-villains. Maybe, especially after one flop, it might be a good idea to aim closer to the concept that has been so popular, rather than throwing away nearly everything about the property.

Shadow Lodge

Kthulhu wrote:
It was a graphic novel that came out probably at least 20 years ago.

Doctor Strange and Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment

published November 1990

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:


1) I suspect you're drastically underestimating the number of people who are familiar with Dr. Doom from the comics. Certainly it's not just those few who've been reading since the 60s, but all those who read the FF at any point since then and have fond memories. Plus all the cartoons and games and things - which while they may not all have gone into great detail, generally struck the iconic notes for the character.

Very true, but expand that to most people who read Marvel comics in general, as Doom is quite often involved in non-F4 titles as well.


But of all the times he is involved in other titles Kthulhu, did they go into depth about Doom's background? Not that I am aware of. They kind of assume people already knew about him even if for nothing more than name recognition. In other words he became just another villain. How many times have titles of ANY sort explored Dr Dooms origins?


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Aranna wrote:

But of all the times he is involved in other titles Kthulhu, did they go into depth about Doom's background? Not that I am aware of. They kind of assume people already knew about him even if for nothing more than name recognition. In other words he became just another villain. How many times have titles of ANY sort explored Dr Dooms origins?

I'm not sure what you're looking for or why it's important. No, they don't give a full retelling of his origins and motivations every time he appears - even in the FF.

So what? It's still Doom. The personality is still there. The main beats of his story and traits are usually at least alluded to - Genius, arrogance, Latveria, twisted nobility and honor.


Sissyl wrote:
Dr Doom's only real power is the ability to switch souls with someone else nearby, something he does at least twice in the comics. The rest is resources, skills, magic and so on.

I thought that ability was part of his magical training?

Shadow Lodge

Aranna wrote:

But of all the times he is involved in other titles Kthulhu, did they go into depth about Doom's background? Not that I am aware of. They kind of assume people already knew about him even if for nothing more than name recognition. In other words he became just another villain. How many times have titles of ANY sort explored Dr Dooms origins?

They may not go into his origins, but they show he's capable of more than 1337 hacking skills.

:P


Shadowborn wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Dr Doom's only real power is the ability to switch souls with someone else nearby, something he does at least twice in the comics. The rest is resources, skills, magic and so on.
I thought that ability was part of his magical training?

No. I think it came from aliens?

Shadow Lodge

I think it was aliens. Can't remember exactly, but it's been explicitly stated to NOT be coming from either his magic or a scientific gizmo.


thejeff wrote:
Aranna wrote:

But of all the times he is involved in other titles Kthulhu, did they go into depth about Doom's background? Not that I am aware of. They kind of assume people already knew about him even if for nothing more than name recognition. In other words he became just another villain. How many times have titles of ANY sort explored Dr Dooms origins?

I'm not sure what you're looking for or why it's important. No, they don't give a full retelling of his origins and motivations every time he appears - even in the FF.

So what? It's still Doom. The personality is still there. The main beats of his story and traits are usually at least alluded to - Genius, arrogance, Latveria, twisted nobility and honor.

My point is that the hacktivist Doom can be arrogant and genius (those are normal from such hackers), and NOTHING is preventing him or her from having a twisted sense of nobility and honor, likewise Doom could still be from Latveria and it would lose nothing. So IF that is the core of Doom I fail to see why you would be upset by the new ideas?

I guess I should really ask you all. WHAT is it you think is being lost and WHY is that so important to you?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Aranna wrote:
I guess I should really ask you all. WHAT is it you think is being lost and WHY is that so important to you?

Personally, a big part of the difficulty with comic book movies is that they don't 'elevator pitch' well, especially the characters with long histories like Doom & the FF. 'Hacktivist Doom' is an elevator pitch, as was however they wrote him up for Fox's first FF movie. Too much of what I have seen so far looks as though they have just gone with the 'elevator pitch' without any actual concideration for the deeper background available. That is my complaint with what is 'lost'.

Sovereign Court

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Because I couldn't honestly care less what millions of people want to see. I want them to stay true to the comic.

Shadow Lodge

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The comic version of Doom is one of the most well-received villains in the entire medium.

Hactivist Doom is destined to be only remembered for being in a movie that rivaled "Catwoman" for being the worst comic book movie to actually make it to the big screen.

The previous Doctor Doom may not have been great, but I'd easily take him over this upcoming attrocity.


Kthulhu wrote:
I think it was aliens. Can't remember exactly, but it's been explicitly stated to NOT be coming from either his magic or a scientific gizmo.

Ovoids. From back in the Lee/Kirby days. I think around issue 25.


Kthulhu wrote:

The comic version of Doom is one of the most well-received villains in the entire medium.

Hactivist Doom is destined to be only remembered for being in a movie that rivaled "Catwoman" for being the worst comic book movie to actually make it to the big screen.

The previous Doctor Doom may not have been great, but I'd easily take him over this upcoming attrocity.

I have to admit, I actually liked Doom from the first two films. I found Julian McMahon's performance highly entertaining, and at least they got the bit about him being a highly capable scientist right, even if they did ignore the fact that he's a skilled magic user as well (they seemed to be ignoring the existence of magic in those films anyway, so it at least makes sense in the context of the adaptation). He was easily the best part of those movies, Michael Chiklis as Ben Grimm being the only other character I really liked. I may be slightly biased towards McMahon though, I like seeing Australian actors get roles, and I always liked him as Cole in Charmed. Trivia time, he's also the son of William McMahon, Australia's longest continually serving politician and longest serving Prime Minister who DIDN'T lead their party at election time, despite being widely disliked and distrusted within his own party.

As for hacktivist Doom... no thank you. The Fantastic Four films so far have felt like the studio is almost intentionally trying to tank them, and this just reinforces it.


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Aranna wrote:


I guess I should really ask you all. WHAT is it you think is being lost and WHY is that so important to you?

For me, it would be any actual capacity to contend with four super-powered beings on their own terms. Unless this "hacker" also builds himself a suit of powered armor, an army of robots, and a plethora of cutting edge technology, he's going to be way behind the curve.


I'm fine if the magic element of Doom is dropped from the Fantastic Four films for now. They will share the same universe as X-men, and while mutant powers are effectively magic, they are never called out as such. If Doom was in the MCU, yeah keeping magic in the picture would make sense, since we know that Dr. Strange will be introducing that element into the universe.


Shadowborn wrote:
...builds himself a suit of powered armor, an army of robots, and a plethora of cutting edge technology,...

That's so Iron Man.


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GM Xabulba wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
...builds himself a suit of powered armor, an army of robots, and a plethora of cutting edge technology,...
That's so Iron Man.

Shhhh! Don't give Disney any ideas! {dreads now-inevitable "That's So Iron Man" show starring Raven Symone}


So, it appears what couldn't get worse, is getting even worse. This sounds like someone took the name and made their own superheroes.

Fantastic Four synopsis

Quote:


THE FANTASTIC FOUR, a contemporary re-imagining of Marvel's original and longest-running superhero team, centers on four young outsiders who teleport to an alternate and dangerous universe, which alters their physical form in shocking ways. Their lives irrevocably upended, the team must learn to harness their daunting new abilities and work together to save Earth from a former friend turned enemy.

So aliens from another dimension are what the fantastic four are? Riiiight....


... I think what it's saying is that they teleport to the alternate universe from our universe, and on returning find that they've been changed. Seems more likely to me than trying to say they're extra dimensional beings.

Shadow Lodge

Well, to be fair, that synopsis didn't mention aliens doing it to them, and it's not like their "cosmic rays did it!" origin is any more plausible.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It sounds very much as though they are using the Ultimate FF for source material. It sounds like an 'elevator pitch' synopsis of the Ultimate FF origin.

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