So, I have simple question...
But it's also rather annoyingly hard.
If you have a climb speed higher then your land speed, can you use it to "climb" across the ground?
Normally this isn't a thing, but it can be with elodions, by taking climb more then once.
no. as that would fall under land movement instead of climb movement.
How so?
Why /can't/ you climb across the ground?
DC 15 climb-
any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
Wait, I found it.
Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.
So, in other words, so long as it's going what you perceive as up or down, you can move faster along the ground, but not if it's straight.
Unfortuante.
Well 0.00001 degrees is certainly less than 60 degrees, so you could still climb across a (nearly) flat slope based on that wording.
Oh. I misread that.
I mean, this isn't going to be very practical, considering various restrictions while climbing...
But it does make something I have in mind viable via the use of evolved companion.
I also just found this...
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.
So, trying to use the accelerated climb speed results in gong slower then not using it if your climb speed is faster then your land speed.
Yeah, they couldn't use hands while climbing, as always.
Mind you, if they have a few extra hands then that isn't really a problem anyway.
Or if they're serpentine, and don't have to use them.
Because climbing isn't walking and that is basically what you would be doing.
Because climbing isn't walking and that is basically what you would be doing.
This isn't rules-based.
But if you're not dong rules-based, then my rebuttle is-
How could you suddenly move up at a 90 degree angle on the same roughness of ground faster then on normal ground?
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Stop. Don't be that guy.
Stop. Don't be that guy.
I'm sorry, I fail to see what I'm doing wrong.
I'm trying to present an argument to those on this forums, in an attempt to find someone who can prove me wrong, before taking the mechanics to use.
Please inform me what mistake I'm making, so I can avoid making it again.
Until then, your input is too vague to be of use....
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Stop. Don't be that guy.I'm sorry, I fail to see what I'm doing wrong.
I'm trying to present an argument to those on this forums, in an attempt to find someone who can prove me wrong, before taking the mechanics to use.
Please inform me what mistake I'm making, so I can avoid making it again.
Until then, your input is too vague to be of use....
The rules don't state that you can no longer take actions once you are dead. The devs can't possibly define every common concept.
Being "that guy" is intentionally misunderstanding things or being obtuse.
Stop. Don't be that guy.I'm sorry, I fail to see what I'm doing wrong.
I'm trying to present an argument to those on this forums, in an attempt to find someone who can prove me wrong, before taking the mechanics to use.
Please inform me what mistake I'm making, so I can avoid making it again.
Until then, your input is too vague to be of use....The rules don't state that you can no longer take actions once you are dead. The devs can't possibly define every common concept.
Being "that guy" is intentionally misunderstanding things or being obtuse.
Ah.
I assure you, any misunderstanding is not intentional.My practice with submitting ideas and concepts to large groups is... Limited.
I just don't see why this couldn't be a possibility, considering both how reality works and how he game mechanics work.
Being dead and taking actions doesn't line up with reality, but animals being able to move along the ground as fast as they can climb (usually faster then they can climb) does.
But, according to what is intended, according to you, at least-
If I took a giant leech and gave it the climb evolution through the evolved companion feat...
It can now move up a tree at 20 feet in a round as a move action, but only 5 feet on the ground as a move action, and 20 as a run action.
If this is the case, which it very well might be, ill just have to look around for another method.
(If you couldn't tell, the leech is why I'm asking, to see if this is a viable way to use a giant leech on land.)
There is a reason land speed is given. if you are not making a climb check (which is GM determined) then you are using your land speed.
Also, the first climb evolution only gives you a climb speed = base speed. So for the leech that would be 5'. You would have to take the feat and evolution again to give it a climb of 25'.
I think the OP has a point. It doesn't make much sense that a Monk with a 60' move speed could climb across a slope of sufficient gradient at 15' (30' with a -10 to his check), but 1º less steep and he can only crawl 5'.
There is a reason land speed is given. if you are not making a climb check (which is GM determined) then you are using your land speed.
Also, the first climb evolution only gives you a climb speed = base speed. So for the leech that would be 5'. You would have to take the feat and evolution again to give it a climb of 25'.
You're right.
But I'd be perfectly willing to take it twice.
I agree, It doesn't make much sense. So don't build your eidolon that way.
It probably should be a rule that climb speed can't exceed base speed. I am not aware anywhere that that rule exists, but when you have a choice to take an obvious exploit, or to make something instead that makes sense, I think everyone experience is improved if choose the latter.
As Sandal Fury said "Don't be that guy."
I agree, It doesn't make much sense. So don't build your eidolon that way.
It probably should be a rule that climb speed can't exceed base speed. I am not aware anywhere that that rule exists, but when you have a choice to take an obvious exploit, or to make something instead that makes sense, I think everyone experience is improved if choose the latter.
As Sandal Fury said "Don't be that guy."
"Obvious exploit"?
I'm missing where I'm exploiting something.
I'm not making something powerful. I'm creating something that is viable, but still weaker then, say, a lion, and requires more investment.
animals being able to move along the ground as fast as they can climb (usually faster then they can climb) does.
But, according to what is intended, according to you, at least-
If I took a giant leech and gave it the climb evolution through the evolved companion feat...
It can now move up a tree at 20 feet in a round as a move action, but only 5 feet on the ground as a move action, and 20 as a run action.If this is the case, which it very well might be, ill just have to look around for another method.
(If you couldn't tell, the leech is why I'm asking, to see if this is a viable way to use a giant leech on land.)
See normal animals and creatures follow your logic. But if you are "magically" creating or modifying something then those base assumptions aren't viable anymore.
I think the OP has a point. It doesn't make much sense that a Monk with a 60' move speed could climb across a slope of sufficient gradient at 15' (30' with a -10 to his check), but 1º less steep and he can only crawl 5'.
I don't get what you're saying.
See normal animals and creatures follow your logic. But if you are "magically" creating or modifying something then those base assumptions aren't viable anymore.animals being able to move along the ground as fast as they can climb (usually faster then they can climb) does.
But, according to what is intended, according to you, at least-
If I took a giant leech and gave it the climb evolution through the evolved companion feat...
It can now move up a tree at 20 feet in a round as a move action, but only 5 feet on the ground as a move action, and 20 as a run action.If this is the case, which it very well might be, ill just have to look around for another method.
(If you couldn't tell, the leech is why I'm asking, to see if this is a viable way to use a giant leech on land.)
So i default to the rule set, right?
Witch, as shown by someone else, is fine with it, so long as the ground isn't perfectly flat.So, it's down to a "why it's unreasonable". Instead of "the rules say you can't"
Witch is fine because if the dm doesn't like it, he won't allow it, even things that aren't ambiguous, like a well made heavens oracle, or a synthisist summoner.
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I think the OP has a point. It doesn't make much sense that a Monk with a 60' move speed could climb across a slope of sufficient gradient at 15' (30' with a -10 to his check), but 1º less steep and he can only crawl 5'.I don't get what you're saying.
In retrospect, my comment has less to do with the OP's post than the title. A character climbing across the ground would, functionally, appear similar to a character crawling across the ground.
It seems odd that one could "crawl" up a slope, up a wall, or even across the ceiling, much faster than one could crawl across level ground.
I agree, It doesn't make much sense. So don't build your eidolon that way.
It probably should be a rule that climb speed can't exceed base speed. I am not aware anywhere that that rule exists, but when you have a choice to take an obvious exploit, or to make something instead that makes sense, I think everyone experience is improved if choose the latter.
As Sandal Fury said "Don't be that guy."
Oh, and something else-
The climb speed is set to the creature's base speed, always.Yet, they give the option to raise it by 20, thus putting the climb speed higher then your base speed, regardless what it started at.
It doesn't look, at least to me, like they didn't intend to let you have a higher slime speed then move speed, blatantly allowing it.
This section from the Climb skill would seem to say that you can not exceed your land speed using climb (regardless of if you're climbing or not). It references accelerated climbing but if you can't exceed your land speed by climbing fast it would follow that you can't exceed it by climbing normally either.
If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower)
Consider also that Swim has no such limitation.
This section from the Climb skill would seem to say that you can not exceed your land speed using climb (regardless of if you're climbing or not). It references accelerated climbing but if you can't exceed your land speed by climbing fast it would follow that you can't exceed it by climbing normally either.
If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower)
Consider also that Swim has no such limitation.
Yet, they let you exceed your land speed very clearly, as your base speed always equalls you climb speed if you have that evolution, but take it again, and it gets +20.
It just means accelerated climb is useless to youIt also would mean your movement would be restricted, considering you can't double move or run, and slippery surfaces force checks.
I think the OP has a point. It doesn't make much sense that a Monk with a 60' move speed could climb across a slope of sufficient gradient at 15' (30' with a -10 to his check), but 1º less steep and he can only crawl 5'.I don't get what you're saying.In retrospect, my comment has less to do with the OP's post than the title. A character climbing across the ground would, functionally, appear similar to a character crawling across the ground.
It seems odd that one could "crawl" up a slope, up a wall, or even across the ceiling, much faster than one could crawl across level ground.
You can only climb up a slope that is minimum "too steep to walk up". As thats the lowest DC climb check.
though, I suppose I could just have it climb across ceilings instead of on the floor.
You can only climb up a slope that is minimum "too steep to walk up". As thats the lowest DC climb check.I think the OP has a point. It doesn't make much sense that a Monk with a 60' move speed could climb across a slope of sufficient gradient at 15' (30' with a -10 to his check), but 1º less steep and he can only crawl 5'.I don't get what you're saying.In retrospect, my comment has less to do with the OP's post than the title. A character climbing across the ground would, functionally, appear similar to a character crawling across the ground.
It seems odd that one could "crawl" up a slope, up a wall, or even across the ceiling, much faster than one could crawl across level ground.
(Joke) Clearly, this is every slope, as the leech does not have legs, and cannot walk. (Joke)
So, I suppose the ceiling is the best route to go then.
(Joke) Clearly, this is every slope, as the leech does not have legs, and cannot walk. (Joke)
So, I suppose the ceiling is the best route to go then.
(Joke) To climb an overhang or ceiling you need handholds. Leeches don't have hands, so they can't climb a ceiling. (Joke)
This is definitely a ask your GM if it can work situation. Just tell him what you want, and how you want it to work. You could always just take Spirits Gift and have a Heavens Leech which flys around at 5'.
I looked at that option, but 5' is far too slow and I don't think you could apply the flight evolution increase to him due to lack of the actual flight evolution.
You can only climb up a slope that is minimum "too steep to walk up". As thats the lowest DC climb check.I think the OP has a point. It doesn't make much sense that a Monk with a 60' move speed could climb across a slope of sufficient gradient at 15' (30' with a -10 to his check), but 1º less steep and he can only crawl 5'.I don't get what you're saying.In retrospect, my comment has less to do with the OP's post than the title. A character climbing across the ground would, functionally, appear similar to a character crawling across the ground.
It seems odd that one could "crawl" up a slope, up a wall, or even across the ceiling, much faster than one could crawl across level ground.
Exactly, that's why I said it's odd.
(Joke) Clearly, this is every slope, as the leech does not have legs, and cannot walk. (Joke)
So, I suppose the ceiling is the best route to go then.
(Joke) To climb an overhang or ceiling you need handholds. Leeches don't have hands, so they can't climb a ceiling. (Joke)
This is definitely a ask your GM if it can work situation. Just tell him what you want, and how you want it to work. You could always just take Spirits Gift and have a Heavens Leech which flys around at 5'.
Of course, the biggest stupid thing of this entire thing is I don't have a GM.
I have 20 or 30 planned characters, and I'm always adding more.I'll probably never get to use them, but even still, I enjoy making them.
And talking about them. I like to have reasonable discussion on the merits of ideas I have.
Just to throw it in the mix if climb speed could effect your land speed there would be no reason for the 2 pt evolution allowing you to add legs and increase your base speed by 10'. This doesn't really contribute to RAW but certainly to RAI.
I can see creatures that have higher climb speeds than base land speeds. To me, you are not climbing unless there is a chance of falling. If you take damage while climbing, you have to make a climb check or fall from your current height.
With that in mind, if you can't fall from the surface, then you can't climb it. If that means a leech is faster moving up a wall than across the ground, so be it.
Because you can use the run action or double move with land speed, it affects your climb speed too, it affects any burrow speed you get, and you can use it to gain two natural attacks with one more point.
I can see creatures that have higher climb speeds than base land speeds. To me, you are not climbing unless there is a chance of falling. If you take damage while climbing, you have to make a climb check or fall from your current height.
With that in mind, if you can't fall from the surface, then you can't climb it. If that means a leech is faster moving up a wall than across the ground, so be it.
The climb check is only the base dc of the wall.
"To me, you are not climbing unless there is a chance of falling"
At +39, you will /never/ have a chance of falling, or failing a check.
At +30 with a climb speed, you will never fall due to always being able to take 10, and the hardest check being dc 40.
I think he's saying that if you were needing to climb and had a 0 after rolling if you'd take damage from falling. So it doesn't matter how skilled you are and whether you can fail, but if you did fail would you fall and take damage.
It's not about CAN fail but IF YOU DID FAIL, would you fall. Thus if you failed and you would fall it's okay to climb. If you failed and wouldn't fall then it's not climbing.
Alright then. I suppose that's fine, an interpretation that isn't really surprising at all.
I mean, honestly, I'd just have it curl up in a large backpack while I bring it with me, but there's no rules for that, becuase you can't have a medium creature in the same square as another medium creature.
Except for those --- checks which you cannot climb. At all.
Just because you can't fail at the moment doesn't mean something can't happen which ups the DC to make you fail. Also, how are you planning to get to that level of bonus?
Compare that to spider climb. You get a climb speed of 20' and do not need to make climb checks to traverse vertical or horizontal surfaces (even upside down). You CAN spider climb across a perfectly smooth flat vertical or inverted surface, because you don't need to make a check.
Except for those --- checks which you cannot climb. At all.
Just because you can't fail at the moment doesn't mean something can't happen which ups the DC to make you fail. Also, how are you planning to get to that level of bonus?
Compare that to spider climb. You get a climb speed of 20' and do not need to make climb checks to traverse vertical or horizontal surfaces (even upside down). You CAN spider climb across a perfectly smooth flat vertical or inverted surface, because you don't need to make a check.
It's actually pretty easy to get close to +30 when you have a climb speed.
+8 from climb speed +say, 5 ranks, +3 from class skill, +whatever your str is.
+16 before strength.
With a 18 str, +20.
+20 passes everything but a slippery, flat ceiling.
The only thing that ups the climb dc is "slippery" at a +5.
So, at a +25, you never fail, unless you try and do accelerated climbing witch would be counter-intuitive here.
But, on the matter of spider climb, that's very true.
Of course, I question on the definition of a "perfectly smooth" surface, but that's a interpretation thing strictly.
Heck, select the climb evolution 4 times, so you can have a climb speed of 85' while crawling along the ceilings and walls, but if it falls off, it is stuck to a land speed of 5' until it can get back to a wall.
Be sure to take an extra limb or two so you can fight from the ceiling. (I think I've had nightmares about things like this.)
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Without handholds. A cave ceiling is varied, not smooth, and has various cracks and crevices in it which someone could grab onto.
A wooden drop ceiling is flat, and has no available hand holds, so no climbing on it.
And yes, my earlier point was that if you can't fall from the place you are at, if say, you chose to stop climbing, then you aren't actually climbing, you are merely standing in that space. Climbing isn't defined because it is assumed the players understand what it is. Trying to climb across the ground is as nonsensical as trying to fly through the water with a fly speed.
Heck, select the climb evolution 4 times, so you can have a climb speed of 85' while crawling along the ceilings and walls, but if it falls off, it is stuck to a land speed of 5' until it can get back to a wall.
Be sure to take an extra limb or two so you can fight from the ceiling. (I think I've had nightmares about things like this.)
That would be neat, but takes way too many feats to pull off.
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Be sure to take an extra limb or two so you can fight from the ceiling. (I think I've had nightmares about things like this.)
Interesting idea. If you take 2 limbs, do you now have hands which you now have to use while climbing?
Without handholds. A cave ceiling is varied, not smooth, and has various cracks and crevices in it which someone could grab onto.
A wooden drop ceiling is flat, and has no available hand holds, so no climbing on it.
And yes, my earlier point was that if you can't fall from the place you are at, if say, you chose to stop climbing, then you aren't actually climbing, you are merely standing in that space. Climbing isn't defined because it is assumed the players understand what it is. Trying to climb across the ground is as nonsensical as trying to fly through the water with a fly speed.
To be fair, that /would/ work with freedom of moment.
I'm curious, then, why is up, down, and upside-down, so special by comparison to the ground?
And as for the ceiling thing, I've got to look into how to make that work. I mean, there are several thighs that can hold unto a smooth ceiling due to sticky stuff, so maybe I can find an item that helps with that.
Be sure to take an extra limb or two so you can fight from the ceiling. (I think I've had nightmares about things like this.)Interesting idea. If you take 2 limbs, do you now have hands which you now have to use while climbing?
Well, it says "both hands"
Implying two, but also implying you only have two.