Yes there were fops, but those fops could very likely shoot better than you, and impale you with extreme prejudice a dozen times over with their swords rapier, back, sabre or court, your choice, try telling the nobility of the HRE or the Swedish Empire, or the english civil war they couldn't or didn't fight, 'citizen soldier' as a model came about late remember, and the officer corp lead from the front in a lot of units, promotion relied upon valour in most armies, especially in the 30 years war, english civil war, and Napoleonic wars.
Hell just look at how many Lords and even Kings died fighting in the 'shot and pike era'
Even as recently as World War 1, a disproportionately large number of the British upper classes served as officers, led their men into battle, and got killed.
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Well most of the posts here relate to European based nobility, whereas better applicable to Minkai in the Dragon Empires are the noble aspects of Rite Publishing Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) and especially the Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) supplement. Note this supplement contains more than just archetypes and prestige classes, there are rules for creating custom samurai clans complete with available kammon (samurai house crests), as well as a fluff heavy explanation of Bushido and other samurai practices in Japanese society, as well as traits, feats, and archetypes for other non-warrior samurai caste members including: rangers, paladins, gunslingers, and wizards.
In the caste system of Japan, samurai are often treated as the highest and as part of the nobility. While this is true to some degree, true royals are direct descendants to the Imperial house, often younger brothers of current emperors that don't get an official position at court and go out and start their own families to become the rulers of lesser domains. Samurai are the forces that serve those royals as soldiers, magistrates, accountants and tax collectors.
Samurai training is often a part of training and lifestyle of the highest aristocracy, so nobles often are samurai. At the same time some samurai are merely police officers serving the cities and towns of oriental lands. There are even poor farmers that are also lesser samurai houses called j%+amurai and have no more wealth than the average farmer. So samurai comprise a range of noble serving aids from the highest to fairly low in the hierarchy. Not all samurai are nobles.
Comparitively, the Commoner caste are not peasants, as all farmers and fisherman of Japan were free and owned the land they worked. They did not pay rents to the nobility. They did pay a rather high annual tax to the government, but then everyone including local government pay taxes to the Shogunate and the Imperial Court. Taxes were as high as 40% of annual incomes. Japan, and thus Minkai or Kaidan have no peasants in their society at all.
From Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) are both a noble samurai archetype, Kuge, and a noble prestige class: Bugyo, both being the more noble representatives of the Kaidan setting. Kuge are aristocratic samurai, sons of daimyo, members of the office of the Shogunate or the imperial court. While Bugyo are state officials whether magistrates, military leaders or regional governors with a greater amount of authority than most others.
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Japan, and thus Minkai or Kaidan have no peasants in their society at all.
Wouldn't they still be considered peasants, (I'm sure they were called something different as the languages vary.) and just not serfs?
Admittedly - in the early middle ages in Europe - the bulk of the peasantry were serfs, becoming a smaller % as time went on, moreso in western Europe. (Especially after the black plague, because that caused a labor shortage. There's actually a theory that the black plague was a major cause of the beginning of the industrial age. :P)
Ah, you're right, I was trying to say there were no "serfs" in Japan, I used the wrong term here - thanks for the correction.
Another thing to consider physicians are of the commoner caste, though often wealthier than the lesser samurai like the ji-zamurai.
Also the lowest caste being Eta, although sometimes oppressed, the touching of the dead and bloody things are considered taboo by those of higher caste. Which means that occupations like butcher, tannery, leather working were only done by the Eta caste members, and thus providing a monopoly on those trades and granting them wealth that often exceeded everyone except the highest nobility. So wealth isn't always limited to the aristocracy.
This might mean that just because a given PC is an aristocrat doesn't necessarily mean they have greater wealth than those of lower castes.
Ah, you're right, I was trying to say there were no "serfs" in Japan, I used the wrong term here - thanks for the correction.
Another thing to consider physicians are of the commoner caste, though often wealthier than the lesser samurai like the ji-zamurai.
Also the lowest caste being Eta, although sometimes oppressed, the touching of the dead and bloody things are considered taboo by those of higher caste. Which means that occupations like butcher, tannery, leather working were only done by the Eta caste members, and thus providing a monopoly on those trades and granting them wealth that often exceeded everyone except the highest nobility. So wealth isn't always limited to the aristocracy.
This might mean that just because a given PC is an aristocrat doesn't necessarily mean they have greater wealth than those of lower castes.
Could you share a bit more about the ji-zamurai, I think it might add more to this thread on "nobility".
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Most ji-zamurai were Commoner ashigaru (men-at-arms) in times of war, though largely farmers or fisherman as their normal activity to start. For performing some extreme heroics in battle were legally raised to samurai status (which is inheritable).
Sometimes battles are a defensive nature meaning that once the war is over nothing tangible is gained by the defender - so no improvements nor added wealth is spread among the participants. A poor farmer samurai remains a poor farmer. He is still responsible for purchasing his weapons, armor, horse, tack, various uniforms required for official musters and occasions at the local court he supports, most likely a local daimyo.
Needless to say, a ji-zamurai's uniforms are often threadbare and not as pristine as those of higher status, but they are still samurai.
I know I'm breaking all conventions of ninja as provided by media and previously published oriental games. Although they evolved, ninja clans to start were small samurai houses that specialized in stealth for spying, combat and assassination. Legal combat is officially allowed for samurai only (except in times of war when ashigaru are conscripted). Overtime, many houses separate themselves from samurai society living in hidden enclaves disguised as rural villages to better hone their arts and not recognized by other samurai as being samurai anymore. Yet some ninja clans remained true samurai houses, using ninja skills as assets in battle and scouting.
Also their hooded pajamas as depicted in books and movies are a convention from Kabuki theater and not what ninja ever actually wore. Ninja wear whatever you'd expect in the environs she's operating. So if in a rural area appearing as ji-zamurai or a local farmer is how she would be dressed, or if in town as a merchant or laborer - they want to blend into their surrounding afterall.
In the first Kabuki play that featured a ninja as part of the storyline. Actors wear overly colorful (cinematic) versions of the clothing worn by whom the actors represent. Backstage workers who move the sets, carry lanterns hung on poles to better illuminate an actor in a scene - are onstage at the same time. So to be more unobtrusive they wear those hooded black pajamas - so that they are mostly invisible in the unlit surroundings.
In the play featuring the ninja, one of the socalled backstage workers was actually the actor playing the ninja. He removed his hood, pulled out a sword and slew the target actor. This shocked the audience and inferred how the ninja was invisible and suddenly an assassin out of nowhere. That's where the concept of the costume comes from. It was a convention used by the theater to portray the concept. Ninja never wore them - that's both a trope and a falsehood.
Just so you know, I'm only an amateur scholar/historian of feudal Japan, but am half Japanese deeply interested in my heritage. Kaidan is my homebrew published as an imprint under Rite Publishing. Its my creation, IP and I share copyright with Steven Russell. Although better writers and designers are bringing it to fruition, I'm the cutural/folklore expert behind the project, and more or less the developer. Just so you know my background on this.
Incidentally, Paizo commissioned me to design the City of Kasai map and write portions of the City of Kasai gazetteer for the Empty Throne module of the Jade Regent AP, and I'm credited as a contributing author - so even Paizo recognizes my expertise. (Just so nobody says "who the hell is this guy saying all this?")
Religious leaders could be divided into lifelong adherents that have risen in the ranks, and samurai who have managed to outlive the violence and retire joining the ranks of the monastery in preparation for meeting his afterlife. The priesthood, like the ninja aren't a part of the social caste system setting outside of that for the importance of religion. Many monk priests come from the Commoner caste.
Sometimes immigrant monks from China/Korea bring new and different takes on Buddhism forming new sects and becoming "pontiffs" of that sect even though they aren't locally born. In this way religion is more cosmopolitan than the rest of Japanese society.
No DM is going to give a player that kind of money, and power, at first level.
Every GM gives the players that kind of power at first level. That starting money player have to blow on adventuring gear. A peasant will never have that kind of wealth. A peasant never has the time to train to become 1st level class of anything but commoner.
I think the problem is in western culture we have no idea what a peasant is. So we assume that peasant have a choice and can choose to be something more than what they are born into. That is not the reality yet. Though if we keep gong the way we are soon the 1% will have all the wealth and all the power leading to new form of feudalism. When that happens we won't be gaming, we will be to busy working to feed the rich.
For nobles, there are many levels to consider before we even consider culture.
Local gentry or church noble? Court, or diplomatic core? Knight or from the royal assassin family (grew up around many blue-blooded fellows, but father always said I would have to kill people like them).
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Question for those here, since a lot of folks have thoughts and feelings on the subject. Does anyone have any really good stories, or really BAD stories, regarding characters who were part of the gentry, nobility, etc.?
It isn't a story but an observation. I am currently playing a noble fighter in a 5E-beginner-box campaign. I play the character with a serious drive to succeed and to be seen doing so, not for the sake of showing off but to better his reputation as a formidable problem solver and worthy of his station. The flip side of that station is the expectation it creates among the peasantry that you will deal with whatever problem arises. The peasantry do their part producing crops, etc. The noble has an obligation as well, especially in a world with ankhegs ripping up the fields and so on.
Yep, of course, and lineage is extremely important. Are you a second gen noble of the sword because your father was an excellent fighter? You can still remember what it was like to not be noble and to not have personal tutors. Or, are you the 15th generation of a palace courtier family - your line has had almost every government post across recorded history in the capital.
Massively different backgrounds, can lead to massively varied characters. Both could be haughty arrogant nobles, but for different reasons and both should probably be played not at all alike.
Nobles can be fun, but I think a bit of research is required for what you are going for to get an idea how it might come across, or best be played. Now let's get a tale of Genji game going. ;)
Great idea thejeff! I had not thought of a country where adventuring was illegal. I like that, and given the amount of power and potent items that can be gained, that really makes a lot of sense. Bravo.
i feel the need to mention these
for the brow-beating smackdown with words type we have Noble
for more of a noble born soldier feel the Buck found here is designed for that
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I've always found a liberal sprinkling of nobility spices things up a bit as a DM.
There's a wide collection of hedge knights, second princes, and the like who aren't precisely going to be swimming in loot.
If you're a prince, chances are good you get an allowance (maybe). All that stuff in the treasury? That's Dad's. You don't get it til he dies.
In a past 3.5 game I played a knight, low tier nobility, like a baronet. Little heredity title, right to see the king, etc. But this is where the BUT comes in.
Being a noble ain't all fancy pants and coats of arms. With every noble right, comes a noble responsibility.
Sir Ubel von Karkamovsky the Immortal was a noble, but his nobility came through with the fact he was a loyal retainer. And when his sworn liege lord and the king (who he also sworn an oath to) got into it, he was stuck in a situation. (Ubel's currently in a mirror of imprisonment because the evil forces behind the king's odd behavior needed a place to stick a 13th level Knight. Why is Ubel imprisoned? The King ordered him to surrender, and he well, has an oath to the king).
Not everyone's a lawful stupid knight though, but if you're the Lord of the Green Marches, even if the Green Marches are just sixteen acres of forest and a well, you've gotta look after it, or else your reputation is in danger, and you might find your title stripped.
If you have serfs or people living on your land, you've got an obligation to look after them.
If you're a noble wanting around, you have a Noblesse oblige to watch out for other nobles as well as always represent your king, liege and nation in the best light. And if you don't act the part, nobody's going to treat you appropriately.
The reason that noble carries good intentions for many is because of stuff like this. The noble might not be a good guy, he might tax the crap out of you, but if someone comes through and burns all your houses down in the winter, a good noble (not necessarilly a good aligned one) is going to do something about it. You're his responsibility and either from lawful obligation (my liege placed these lands and these people under my dominion!), good compassion (I must serve my people, as I serve my king), or evil self-interest (these people and lands are mine to despoil no one else's!!), he's going to do something about it.
Nobles got the job because they were the guys who could handle it, and they would spend time training their children and children's children on how to handle jobs of governance.
Nobles want these jobs. They're the titles they carry.
Sir Ubel von Karkamovsky (the immortal), retainer to Lord Aiden the Warmaster of Gwynnid, Member of the First Squad of the Haldane Lancers carries a lot of respect for his position even if he's just a baronet with no land, and no possessions other then what he carries on his back.
Meanwhile Princess Tiranna Drell, 300th in line for the throne. Might be the daughter of the king, but she's just another pretty face in a dress, waiting to be married off to someone even though she has a sworn bodyguard and a lot of loot. She doesn't have a job.
Tiranna above is an NPC from a campaign that I ran myself. Where within a certain king has a large harem, and a commensurately large amount of heirs (princes and princesses), said royals get given some starting funds, a bodyguard, and are promptly told to go and prove why they should get to be heir, in a bizarre form of patrilineal meritocracy.
Nobles, depending on the environment, and yes even in the middle ages, don't always have endless capabilities to do things. A noble who owes 20,000 dukets to the merchant house of Richman von FantasyBurg isn't going to be able to welch on his debt just by threatening said house by saying he's the Baron of The Blue Hills.
They might not break his legs (he's a noble man after all, and picking on him that way might trigger that nobelis oblige thing from other nobles), but they'll extract all kinds of other stuff. Like say, living in his house, marrying his daughter, or making him introduce them to the King.
Nobles aren't really 'lazy' except in the sense of the latter day, or the 'landed gentry' that occured after democratization or increasing centralized governments.
The French Revolution partially occurred because a paranoid King decided it was a good idea to force the nobles to spend all their time at court (to keep them from plotting where he couldn't see), resulting in people not administering their lands, meaning more clerks were in charge, meaning more nobles who 'owned' lands without having actually been to them. Meaning that instead of people thinking 'Baron Von Fancypants may wear fancy pants, but he did make sure his men fixed all those road signs' they were thinking 'Baron von Fancypants II taxes the hell out of us, and all he does is wear fancy pants! Those signs are atrocious, I don't know where I am!'
The problem I have with Noble PCs is in general, they work better with folks of a more lawful alignment. Otherwise they're the black sheep causing trouble for family (which admittedly might explain why their allowance is cut off).
Dot
Though I've already mentioned Way of the Samurai (PFRPG), another tool included in that product is rules for designing custom samurai clans, which I think could be easily adapted in creating any specific aristocratic house, no matter the culture it belongs. For some translations for adaptation, a daimyo is the liege lord (king or whomever is the highest ranking noble), a taisho is a general, while a monogashira is a captain.
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The whole idea of nobles being inherently better is something I've represented in my homebrew setting. There's an entire nation whose ruling dynasty are all half-silver-dragons, and the line of kings which rules one of the prominent nations is literally blessed by one of the major deities, and rules because they deserve to, not because they took power through war or fortune.
Of course this is what the original Birthright campaign setting was based on. A war among the gods caused the first gods to die, the essence of each deity became absorbed by the leaders and nobility of each supporting army. Descendants of these leaders with absorbed divine powers enabled them to remain as the aristocracy.
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The historical patronage of kings is always a fun thing, especially when its veracity is up for grabs.
Dnd likes to 'do in the wizard' a lot and have such information more easily verifiable.
I have two royal families in my campaign setting that are supposedly derived from opposing war deities. The countries in general dislike one another, but regardless of what else they throw, they don't throw aspersions on the divine origin of the bloodlines because to do so is to put their own into question.
It actually results in a weird situation where in one country the clergy of said war deity thinks that the church should rule the country with the king as its spiritual leader. The more secular authorities and the royal family (generally) disagree.
Divine bloodlines can result in in-breeding (not in my case) like the ancient pharaohs as they try to stay 'pure.' Also the large family style for some nobles can result in destabilization and a lot of palace intrigue.
Ottoman nobles upon becoming sultan used to routinely kill their brothers and sisters. My kingdom from the above, has the king marry his less successful sons and daughters off to smaller kingdoms to form political alliances.
As I stated in my post above though, nobility without title slowly starts sliding to 'not noble,' in the medieval mindset. You're on the outs.
You can't be a baron of nowhere, you can't be a viscount of nothing. You need a title and position to be 'noble,' even if its something like Lord of the Barony of the King's Outhouse, or Prince of the Three Lily pads in the pond, or Consort to the King, or hell, even Court Jester. Being a courtier obviously isn't as good as being landed nobility though.
What rights nobles have is something to be thought of. Do they get trials when no one else does? Do they get to declare how they get executed (swords for decapitating nobles instead of axes, no crucifixion for roman citizens, etc). Even the Mongols believed you couldn't spill noble blood on some occasions (resulting in a lot of deaths by being pressed, and Martin's inspiration for the crown of gold thing from Song of Ice and Fire).
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What rights nobles have is something to be thought of. Do they get trials when no one else does? Do they get to declare how they get executed (swords for decapitating nobles instead of axes, no crucifixion for roman citizens, etc). Even the Mongols believed you couldn't spill noble blood on some occasions (resulting in a...
In feudal Japan, the samurai were held to a higher standard. If a crime was committed by a commoner the subsequent punishment for a given crime was not lethal, whereas the same crime committed by a samurai was a capital offense, as to the nobles, the samurai were educated men and would surely know the difference between right and wrong, unlike a lesser individual might.
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In general, no. A samurai killing a peasant without reason would be construed a crime, but without witnesses the killing would not be considered murder.
A commoner committing arson was beaten. A samurai committing arson was burned to death.
However, the point of killing peasants to test swords is not true, the testing of swords was done on criminals, not peasants, and only rarely done at all.
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And a peasant murdering a samurai?
Would be considered treason of the highest order. Commoners were not allowed to wield weapons, murdering one of higher caste was treason against the Shogun and the order of law. I'm not saying crime and punishment was equal, just that when a samurai was found guilty of a given crime, punishment was always capital - as they were expected to know better.
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Kiri-sute gomen was a right held by the samurai though.
You can't murder people, but if they affronted your honor? You can cut them down and as long as you can produce a witness, you're good.
One thing that comes up here too is.. Are the laws codified or not?
Also what happens when two nobles from two different cultures encounter each other in neutral territory.
Lots of fun stuff.
I remember reading in Tokugawa's codified laws, they didn't even need a witness. Their honour was of supreme importance, far more than the commoner's life.
"Being a samurai meant that you were the lord of your land, that which was given to you by your daimyo. With this power came a certain amount of prestige, and social stratification. Law stated that any disrespect against a samurai from a peasant was justifiable cause for the peasant to be killed on the spot. Some regions had laws so lax that a samurai could kill a peasant for any reason at all, often leading to "practice murder."
Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook, Secrets of the Samurai: A survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan (Castle Books, 1999) p. 113.
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Things got a lot more codified during the Tokugawa Era. Much of Kaidan development is derived from history prior to that, up to the Sengoku Period.
I ran a curious samurai-esque situation in Isger involving a noble family and a rebellious people. The family was inspired by a certain northern Japanese clan, and it allowed an in-game examination of nobility, nobless oblige, the requirements of a ruler, the threat of a thinking populace and how nobles can fall and fail if they over-specialise and don't rule well in times of trouble.
Setup
Basically, this clan have lost control of their territory. It isn't a samurai in fantasy europe-esque situation. They are an old respected Isgerian house that took fighting and fleeing like many others during the goblin wars, but returned to part of their lands and tried to stitch feudalism back together. They had it running for a few years, just, but independent survivors and hunters aren't placid agriculturalists (they got eaten by the goblins). This means the position of the nobles in tenuous. Yes, even if they have two handed swords aplenty.
A series of small-scale crises brought into question their right to rule, and as they weren't innovators in agricultural tech, there was a food shortage. Basically they could fight and kill goblins, but they weren't good enough to manage the agriculture of a struggling region. There was a revolt, they were thrown out by a farmer, merc and criminal element collective. They lost a lot of their loyal soldiers but the noble line survived, now as rebels.
This was a humbling experience, and this small faction and dynasty is basically reduced to three adventuring groups. They can chop, some still have good gear but they simply aren't good enough to take back their old lands. They also don't have the necessary skills to rule well even if they took it back. That was where the players came in.
The players were set to help these nobles, and advise the youngish noble rebel lord. Isger is a mess, so no help is coming to help this noble take his lands back. Part of this is attacking the criminals and persuading the people to take their lord back, possibly punishing or brutally exacting revenge upon the rebels leaders, but it is also about setting up this noble to rule after all the battles are done. The noble needs to grow and have a more diverse skill set before he is truly ready to rule his ancestral lands again. He also has to be good enough to persuade his people to stick around (stronghold inspired there), swear fealty, pay taxes and judge local cases with an appropriate level of justice should they come up. If he is not truly ready, or if he just wins with violence, then he is really no better than a bandit with a title. The players can help this noble to be more.
The enemies of course are a diverse lot. Independent freeholders and their strong, capable sons, serfs that had freedom of a sort during and after the goblin years, hunters/trappers, criminal families of smugglers, brutes and kidnappers and the mercs in their employ. Getting these people on side and then stabilising the rule of them can of course allow plenty of opportunity for rp.