Use Magic Ability to Emulate Ability Score


Rules Questions


Hi,
I don't understand how this works:

"Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check."

Frankly I don't understand:

The roll is supposed to be necessary to allow the character to obtain an higher score in order to use a magic device...so, for example, if I have Wisdom 7, I'd have problem in using cleric scrolls, but...

...if I have an UMD bonus of +12 and I roll "10", my result is 22...

...which would lead to a (22 - 15 =) Wisdom of 7!!

But this isn't the worst thing:

In theory is quite easy to go even lower than my already low Wisdom, because any score between 0 and infinite is possible...

...but...what's the point to roll to emulate a low score?

Or I am understanding the skill usage in the wrong way?

How this works?

Thanks,
Guido


It's not meant to be an easy roll to make for low-level characters (or even mid-level characters trying high-level spells).

Any roll that's not high enough to activate the item means nothing happens, so it doesn't matter if your artificial score is lower than your actual ability score.


What if your UMD bonus is higher than 12? What if your roll is higher than a 10?

Skill checks aren't supposed to work all the time, and sometimes they aren't even necessarily meant to be easy!

If you're planning on relying on this particular check, you would optimize your character build to make the checks more reliable through things like Skill Focus, Magical Aptitude, etc.

Consider for example a 10th level character with max ranks in UMD and both of the above feats. We haven't included ability score bonus yet or rolled the dice, and they have a minimum result of 21 (which would yield an emulated score of 6 after subtracting 15). With an average roll of 10 (and still not including any bonus from ability score) they have an emulated score of 15.

Not so unreasonable as you start to level up more and if you have invested in making it more reliable. :)


It's a rough roll, but the rule gives some benefit to continuing to raise UMD past a certain point.


If you want to cast a 3rd level spell, you need a casting stat of 13. Since UMD gives #-15, that means you need a total of 28 to emulate the stat enough to cast that spell.

For a 9th level spell, you need 19 which means a 34 score on UMD.

The highest numbers needed are to UMD scroll activation since you need to get the caster level + 20. For that scroll of wish that means you need a UMD of 37 and an ability of 34 if you don't have it. If the scroll is a higher caster level, you need even higher numbers.

/cevah


Remember charisma is a casting stat. You may have better luck with oracle or sorceror scrolls.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

No such thing. Scrolls are either arcane, divine, or psychic. Pick a compatible class to emulate and use the stat appropriate to that class.


His point is that if you are using charisma to activate UMD, you may have better luck emulating a class using charisma as a casting stat.

Sad v Mad


blahpers wrote:
No such thing. Scrolls are either arcane, divine, or psychic. Pick a compatible class to emulate and use the stat appropriate to that class.

But then why there is a table for prices of scrolls by class?

My character has Charisma 18, which should be enough to cast most spells, but with "pick" you mean that if I take a divine scroll I can cast it as an Oracle (with Charisma) or if it is arcane scroll as a Sorcerer (with Charisma)?

But why on p. 491 of Core Rules there are different costs for different spell lists? Which are applied when I buy a scroll?

The more expensive applies when the spell there is not on the other spell list (i.e., use Sorcerer only when a spell is Sorcerer-only)?

Moreover, when I cast for a scroll I need also to emulate the casting level of the scroll?

And what about psychic magic? Scrolls exist for those classes too??

Thanks,
Skarm


PFS has a special rule for it:

Quote:

Casting a spell from a scroll using the Use Magic Device skill requires "a minimum score (10 +spell level) in the appropriate ability." How do I determine the appropriate ability score?

The Roleplaying Guild Guide describes how to determine which class's spell list to use when pricing a scroll. In the organized play campaign, we assume that a character of that class created the scroll. The appropriate ability for the scroll is the typical spellcasting ability score of that class. If more than one class could have created the scroll following the rules in the Guide, you may choose the class. For example, endure elements is a 1st-level spell on the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard lists. You may choose to purchase a scroll crafted by a cleric or druid to use Wisdom, a scroll crafted by a sorcerer to use Charisma, or a scroll crafted by a wizard to use Intelligence.

Outside of PFS, it's up to the GM to interpret "appropriate ability score".


Matthew Downie wrote:

PFS has a special rule for it:

Quote:

Casting a spell from a scroll using the Use Magic Device skill requires "a minimum score (10 +spell level) in the appropriate ability." How do I determine the appropriate ability score?

The Roleplaying Guild Guide describes how to determine which class's spell list to use when pricing a scroll. In the organized play campaign, we assume that a character of that class created the scroll. The appropriate ability for the scroll is the typical spellcasting ability score of that class. If more than one class could have created the scroll following the rules in the Guide, you may choose the class. For example, endure elements is a 1st-level spell on the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard lists. You may choose to purchase a scroll crafted by a cleric or druid to use Wisdom, a scroll crafted by a sorcerer to use Charisma, or a scroll crafted by a wizard to use Intelligence.
Outside of PFS, it's up to the GM to interpret "appropriate ability score".

Which isn't even consistent with the other PFS-specific rules, like "your scroll will never be crafted by a sorcerer."

I think a reasonable (non-PFS) ruling on "what class do I emulate" would be one of the following:
1) Who crafted the scroll? Emulate that class.
2) Given the scroll type (arcane/divine/psychic), who could cast the scroll normally? Emulate one of those (PC's choice.)


Skarm wrote:
blahpers wrote:
No such thing. Scrolls are either arcane, divine, or psychic. Pick a compatible class to emulate and use the stat appropriate to that class.

But then why there is a table for prices of scrolls by class?

My character has Charisma 18, which should be enough to cast most spells, but with "pick" you mean that if I take a divine scroll I can cast it as an Oracle (with Charisma) or if it is arcane scroll as a Sorcerer (with Charisma)?

But why on p. 491 of Core Rules there are different costs for different spell lists? Which are applied when I buy a scroll?

The more expensive applies when the spell there is not on the other spell list (i.e., use Sorcerer only when a spell is Sorcerer-only)?

Moreover, when I cast for a scroll I need also to emulate the casting level of the scroll?

And what about psychic magic? Scrolls exist for those classes too??

Thanks,
Skarm

Because most scrolls made by a sorcerer, e.g., are going to be more expensive than the same scrolls made by a wizard, and the table keeps you from having to calculate things by hand. Such scrolls aren't more expensive specifically because they're sorcerer scrolls; they're more expensive because the scribed spells are at a higher spell level and caster level. A sorcerer still uses Charisma to activate a scroll scribed by a wizard, and so can any character using Use Magic Device to pretend to be a sorcerer.


Skarm wrote:
Moreover, when I cast for a scroll I need also to emulate the casting level of the scroll?

Not quite. Here's the relevant text:

UMD wrote:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.

/cevah


So you need to make two UMD checks to use scrolls? One to emulate high enough casting stat and another to emulate having it on your spell list.


WagnerSika wrote:
So you need to make two UMD checks to use scrolls? One to emulate high enough casting stat and another to emulate having it on your spell list.

Potentially yes.

If you don't have the spell on your list, you need to make a UMD check.
If you don't have a high enough ability score, you need to make a UMD check.
If you haven't already deciphered the scroll (and don't have the ranks in Spellcraft to do so or access to read magic), you need to make a UMD check.

On top of that, a caster level check would be required if your caster level isn't equal to or higher than the scrolls. I suppose UMD can possibly be used for that too, under the Emulate a Class Feature use. It lets you emulate a class level, but caster level isn't not actually mentioned.


Jeraa wrote:
On top of that, a caster level check would be required if your caster level isn't equal to or higher than the scrolls. I suppose UMD can possibly be used for that too, under the Emulate a Class Feature use. It lets you emulate a class level, but caster level isn't not actually mentioned.

I don't think this part can be true. Non-casters, for example, don't have a CL of 0 - they have no caster level. Thus, they cannot attempt a caster level check. Which means the classic "rogue with UMD" wouldn't work.

This step must be part of the DC20 + caster level check made to activate the scroll. It makes sense, too, because "emulate a class feature" is DC20 + class level. The "use a scroll" check is essentially emulating a specific class feature (caster level).


shaventalz wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
On top of that, a caster level check would be required if your caster level isn't equal to or higher than the scrolls. I suppose UMD can possibly be used for that too, under the Emulate a Class Feature use. It lets you emulate a class level, but caster level isn't not actually mentioned.

I don't think this part can be true. Non-casters, for example, don't have a CL of 0 - they have no caster level. Thus, they cannot attempt a caster level check. Which means the classic "rogue with UMD" wouldn't work.

This step must be part of the DC20 + caster level check made to activate the scroll. It makes sense, too, because "emulate a class feature" is DC20 + class level. The "use a scroll" check is essentially emulating a specific class feature (caster level).

The "Use a Scroll" use of UMD tells you exactly what it does.

Quote:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

That is all it does. It only lets you count the spell as if it were on your spell list. It does nothing else. Ability score requirements and caster level requirements are entirely separate checks from that.

Now it would make sense that a caster level is emulated with the same check, but that is not what is written. The DC to emulate having the spell on your list for a wand is only DC 20. For a scroll it is DC 20 + caster level. But as written, the "Use a Scroll" function does not emulate a caster level.


Jeraa wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
On top of that, a caster level check would be required if your caster level isn't equal to or higher than the scrolls. I suppose UMD can possibly be used for that too, under the Emulate a Class Feature use. It lets you emulate a class level, but caster level isn't not actually mentioned.

I don't think this part can be true. Non-casters, for example, don't have a CL of 0 - they have no caster level. Thus, they cannot attempt a caster level check. Which means the classic "rogue with UMD" wouldn't work.

This step must be part of the DC20 + caster level check made to activate the scroll. It makes sense, too, because "emulate a class feature" is DC20 + class level. The "use a scroll" check is essentially emulating a specific class feature (caster level).

The "Use a Scroll" use of UMD tells you exactly what it does.

Quote:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

That is all it does. It only lets you count the spell as if it were on your spell list. It does nothing else. Ability score requirements and caster level requirements are entirely separate checks from that.

Now it would make sense that a caster level is emulated with the same check, but that is not what is written. The DC to emulate having the spell on your list for a wand is only DC 20. For a scroll it is DC 20 + caster level. But as written, the "Use a Scroll" function does not emulate a caster level.

But if the PC using UMD isn't a caster, they have no spell list to add the scroll to, and no caster level to cast it with.

I can agree that your reading is supportable by the text written. However, the text goes on to explicitly mention that you also might need to emulate an ability score. A similar mention of a CL check is not present. Therefore, I (and apparently many/most others, judging by the searches I did) choose to interpret that as an exhaustive list of checks required, rather than a partial list. Also as somewhat sloppy writing ported directly from 3.5.

As a counterexample, the alchemist class says "An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items...but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so)." Since the alchemist is not a caster, and has no caster level, he cannot make caster level checks (any more than a mindless undead can make Int or Con checks.) Under your interpretation, the alchemist could not actually use UMD on a scroll.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Use Magic Ability to Emulate Ability Score All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.