What if you've got a crazy good disarm modifier, say through feats, a disarm weapon, enhancement, size bonus, true strike, etc, but you roll a nat 1?
Do you drop your weapon due to the auto-failure, or add one to your CMB and see if you failed by ten (or, indeed, failed at all)?
Well... First off fumble rules are a house rule, so that is something to defer to your GM about...
Well... First off fumble rules are a house rule, so that is something to defer to your GM about...
** spoiler omitted **
This isn't actually a fumble house rule. When you fail your disarm check by more than 10 you drop your weapon, and Joey's wondering if checking a 1 would automatically count as failing by more than 10 (since 1s are auto-fails).
I'd say that you still add your bonus to see if you drop your weapon.
You don't automatically drop your weapon. The check is a fail, but it may not be a fail by 10 or more as specified in the rules text.
Well... First off fumble rules are a house rule, so that is something to defer to your GM about...
** spoiler omitted **
This isn't actually a fumble house rule. When you fail your disarm check by more than 10 you drop your weapon, and Joey's wondering if checking a 1 would automatically count as failing by more than 10 (since 1s are auto-fails).
I'd say that you still add your bonus to see if you drop your weapon.
Well, unless I missed something over the years, fumbles are not listed in the Pathfinder CRB. Therefore they are a houserule, or an optional rule if you decide to go with the Criticals/Fumbles Deck (Which I've personally never used). Normally a 1 is an automatic miss not an automatic fumble.
From what I've seen of the rule, most DMs allow the player to roll to confirm the fumble, allowing them to hold the weapon if they beat a DC 10.
You don't automatically drop your weapon. The check is a fail, but it may not be a fail by 10 or more as specified in the rules text.
Is this rules text in some additional rules book or did I actually miss something in the CRB?
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Well, unless I missed something over the years, fumbles are not listed in the Pathfinder CRB. Therefore they are a houserule, or an optional rule if you decide to go with the Criticals/Fumbles Deck. Normally a 1 is an automatic miss not an automatic fumble.
From what I've seen of the rule, most DMs allow the player to roll to confirm the fumble, allowing them to hold the weapon if they beat a DC 10.
You should probably actually read the rules before you get too defensive.
Well... First off fumble rules are a house rule, so that is something to defer to your GM about...
** spoiler omitted **
This isn't actually a fumble house rule. When you fail your disarm check by more than 10 you drop your weapon, and Joey's wondering if checking a 1 would automatically count as failing by more than 10 (since 1s are auto-fails).
I'd say that you still add your bonus to see if you drop your weapon.
Well, unless I missed something over the years, fumbles are not listed in the Pathfinder CRB. Therefore they are a houserule, or an optional rule if you decide to go with the Criticals/Fumbles Deck. Normally a 1 is an automatic miss not an automatic fumble.
From what I've seen of the rule, most DMs allow the player to roll to confirm the fumble, allowing them to hold the weapon if they beat a DC 10.
You missed something. It is not a house rule. It is RAW. Go reread the combat section. Look at disarm.
The one makes it a miss... you still add the bonuses to the one though before you compare it to the disarm rules against the failed attacker.
Edit: LoL, beaten to the post by seconds.
You should probably actually read the rules before you get too defensive.
A hasty comment from me, for some reason I was thinking of fumbles. My bad.
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What if you've got a crazy good disarm modifier, say through feats, a disarm weapon, enhancement, size bonus, true strike, etc, but you roll a nat 1?
Do you drop your weapon due to the auto-failure, or add one to your CMB and see if you failed by ten (or, indeed, failed at all)?
As mentioned, while a 1 on the d20 for a disarm attempt is automatically a failure, you would still check the actual total, 1+CMB, vs the target's CMD for Disarm, and only lose your weapon if your total is also a failure.
And, yes, it is possible, with the right build, that a 1 would only be a failure because it is an attack roll. Or the right target.
What happens if your Natural-1 exceeds the CMD by 10?
Your attack fails, yet is sufficient to cause the loss of two items.
RAW, the exceed by 10 does not require a successful attack (i.e. a 1).
RAI, I would say nat 1 = nothing happens except maybe drop your weapon.
/cevah
If someone is that insanely easy to disarm, then let them be disarmed.
This is also a fine reason to not use the natural-1-and-20 rules.
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What happens if your Natural-1 exceeds the CMD by 10?
Your attack fails, yet is sufficient to cause the loss of two items.
But your attack failed, so why would you even check?
If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.
Note that it describes the extra item disarmed as 'varying levels of success' and that a natural 1 is always a failure.
Which is why I pointed out that RAW, the +10 effect does not have the success requirement.
/cevah
Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD.As you can see, the +10 effect IS called out as a success requirement.
I must have a comprehension problem. :-)
Disarm second paragraph:
"If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm. If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped."
Sentence 1: "If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands)."
Sentence 2: "If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands)."
Sentence 3: "If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm."
All three start out "If your attack ..."
First one then goes "is successful".
Third one then goes "fails".
Second one has neither. It has "exceeds".
Why does it prefer success over failure? It is adjacent to both statements.
There are three different checks of the attack.
That is why I said RAW does not require success.
If it has said "succeeds and exceeds", then it would be as you say.
/cevah
And none of that overrides the general rule that you must succeed to get that varying level of success.
So you class "If your attack fails by 10 or more..." as a level of success? Seems odd to me. :-)
/cevah
What happens if your Natural-1 exceeds the CMD by 10?
Your attack fails, yet is sufficient to cause the loss of two items.
RAW, the exceed by 10 does not require a successful attack (i.e. a 1).
RAI, I would say nat 1 = nothing happens except maybe drop your weapon./cevah
Mechanically a 1 isn't an attack, it would be a miss.
General English, yes you made an attack. Mechanically the roll makes the determination of what the proposed action is "resolved" as. 1 would be a miss, 20 would be a successful attack. The range of numbers between with modifiers compared to the defensive statistic with modifiers determines the outcome.
In other words the proposed action isn't determined until after the roll.
