Goblin Squad Member
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Ozem's Vigil recently hosted "Winter is Coming: Adventure Time in the North" (props to Caldeathe for organizing and leading this). We had a great time, and I had some feedback based on our efforts.
- We had two multi-hour sessions--I wasn't there for all of it, but maybe 6 hours total, with a force from 10-8 players generally geared/leveled out at the top of what Alpha allows. In all of that time, we made a dent in the escalation to 70%. In one hex. That's a lot of effort for a dent in one hex. Does that sound right to you, Dev's? I'm just imagining in EE, by the time we're hitting 3 or 4th level, the entire map is covered by 100% escalations. Maybe there needs to be some tweaking to match escalations to the population/power curve of the server?
- Part of the slowness was (I think) that we had to primarily kill mobs--as we took down most of the mobs in the hex, more mobs, rather than the escalation achievement events, spawned.
- This was my first really social experience in the game, and it was great. It gave me a taste of the kind of shared purpose and effort that makes these games worth playing. This kind of event is an anti-dote to Alpha-fatigue.
- To the best of my understanding, the system only recognizes kills, so as a cleric I had to choose between being rewarded systemically (killing), and playing my role but not being rewarded (healing). That sort of thing isn't helping the game be fun, or encourage role diversity. I think this may also be true for rogues--right now it is hard to see why being a rogue or a cleric isn't "taking one for the team."
- The friendly fire/rep system is unworkable. We figured out pretty early that AoE's were a problem, but somehow even with individual attacks and tab targeting we were regularly attacking each other. A couple people hit -7k rep in less than an hour. That's fine for Alpha, but is absolutely unacceptable for MVP. I applaud all the thought and effort that has gone into a meaningful reputation system, but if the implementation produces the exact opposite intended effect--punishing pro-social cooperative play--you've got a deal-breaker on your hands. If that's in EE, it's a good reason to quit on PFO as a project.
- Healing is pretty darn difficult. Besides being pretty wimpy, you have to run around to find people and stand right next to them, in a very visually confusing, choppy environment. That may be working as intended, but it doesn't feel fun to me. There has to be something in between WoW style F1-F6 clicking while standing still, and running around lost trying to find someone while your video stutters because of the amount of mobs/characters on screen.
- We got our first taste of developing tactics, using a countdown followed by AoE blasts, archer engagement, and melee. Primitive, but fun and pointing towards eventual richness in combat at the group level.
- There was a really enjoyable meta-game aspect to having a bunch of people on Mumble jabbering away. Thod has a truly charming German accent, his son an equally charming but different UK accent I couldn't quite place, Cal practically spit Maple syrup as he talked, there were US regional variations aplenty, etc. It was cool to interact verbally in real time with folks from the forums. Again, this social aspect is a huge part of what makes MMOs worth the time and effort, and I got a taste of that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you make a lot of good points. I like the social aspects of such fights; yes, most mobs are easily killed, but it's a challenge for the group to kill them fast, without losses and without breaking momentum. As challenge + skill requirements can create a "flow" experience, I think these fights can actually be pretty fun and rewarding.
To the best of my understanding, the system only recognizes kills, so as a cleric I had to choose between being rewarded systemically (killing), and playing my role but not being rewarded (healing). That sort of thing isn't helping the game be fun, or encourage role diversity. I think this may also be true for rogues--right now it is hard to see why being a rogue or a cleric isn't "taking one for the team."
As far as clerics taking one for the team, it will depend on the escalation. If the escalation is Risen (undead) or Razmirians (cultists), everyone in the party is going to be getting counters towards Divine achievements for each party kill, rather than Adventure achievements, like for killing bandits or gobs.
As for rogues; rogues get counters towards Subterfuge achievements just like fighters get Martial achievements: for delivering the death blow to a mob. I think the key is to know your attacks and know your friends attacks, and get death blows as often as you can. (Yes, fighters have more weapons to work up Martial achievements, but I don't see a lot of people switching up their weapons during an escalation.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suspect that the first couple of months will be difficult, as we'll be focused on getting gear and making the economy work, but that as we go up in tier, we will be able to trim back the out of control escalations, a bit like a hedge that's been ignored for a few years.
I hope that we can do at least one weekly event like this somewhere on the map, so that each week a different escalation home hex can be cut back by 50-100 people working together.
With enough people, we could probably quit worrying about having the right gear, and just send a hundred people toe-to-toe with the mobs with starter gear and probably do some good and not worry about how many times we die to accomplish it.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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A number of quesions:
How was the desynch?
Why were people taking rep hits? Was it a targeting problem, an AoE problem, or people targeting for healing and not retargeting for attacks?
Did you form a party or did you play solo or some mixture?
Did you find any mobs that were very hard to kill?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, Hi sorry forgot to address the server issues:
1. No teleports I know of. A couple of people (Thod in particular) had desynchs, but it seemed to only affect those people over and over again, rather than affecting people at random. I'm pretty sure Thod was connecting from the UK, so maybe it is a lag/IP issue?
2. We definitely had someone (by someone I mean Lito) throw AoEs at the group. But after that somehow in the battle, tab-targeting only, archers and spell casters would target a friendly and suddenly you are red. In my case, it seemed to happen when the mob I was targeting died quickly, and I was spamming a spell. So instead of tabbing onto a friendly, my last blast somehow targeted a friendly. It was pretty hectic though, so maybe I'm mistaken.
3. We had two parties.
4. Red champion risen fighters and wizards were a challenge, but we could burn them down with focus fire pretty quick. Nothing seemed immune to damage or way out of our league in HP/power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A few comments based on my own experiments with the Ripping Chains escalation, which can be found aplenty in the SE region of the map. This is maybe the weakest escalation I have seen (only some 26,000 at 100 %, mostly white mobs, some yellow, nothing red, the most challinging pulls consist of 4+ casters with extras) and my experiments were within a hex that had only 1-2 supporting hexes.
- the last time I tested a staff based build (all +0 gear) solo, I was able to reduce this escalation by roughly 5 % per 30 minutes by indiscriminately slaughtering the local population (many goblins were harmed during this test) and completing the escalation objectives when they popped up on the mini map (usually in the same pattern)
- if that speed would scale, you could completely defeat this specific escalation (under these specific circumstances) solo in around 10 hours (assuming you have unlimited patience -and ammo, once implemented, gear lost do deaths would be more than compensated by mob drops)
- based on what I have seen so far I do not have any reason to suspect that escalations would become any kind of an issue in any fairly organized neighborhood, but may well run wild on less populated parts of the map, since they only seem to become a real issue when they have numerous other infected hexes feeding them
- more players does not seem to mean that it would be proportinately faster to reduce the escalation as having to be careful with / limits the use of AOE slows things down significantly
I fully agree that friendly fire ruining reputation needs to go before EE as it is in fundamental conflict with the design goals of the game (i.e. encouraging group play). Whether caused by AOE, targeting mistakes or whatever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. We definitely had someone (by someone I mean Lito) throw AoEs at the group. But after that somehow in the battle, tab-targeting only, archers and spell casters would target a friendly and suddenly you are red. In my case, it seemed to happen when the mob I was targeting died quickly, and I was spamming a spell. So instead of tabbing onto a friendly, my last blast somehow targeted a friendly. It was pretty hectic though, so maybe I'm mistaken.
This has been a problem of targeting for ranged combatants since Alpha 6 or perhaps earlier.
The targeting back to the center of the screen is the issue. The occurrence is even more likely now because ranged rooting includes not being able to pivot and keep on eye on who you are actually targeting.
Solution: Have a toggle that turns on or off the ability to target other players using the tab key. In EVE there is a toggle that makes it impossible to target an PC, therefore it is impossible to have direct friendly fire unless it was intentional.
A player solution:
Have all ranged combatants fire the first shots, at specific targets, and then switch to melee and engage the remaining targets. During a "furball" no ranged = no chance of friendly fire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A number of quesions:
1. How was the desynch?
2. Why were people taking rep hits? Was it a targeting problem, an AoE problem, or people targeting for healing and not retargeting for attacks?
3. Did you form a party or did you play solo or some mixture?
4. Did you find any mobs that were very hard to kill?
A take from my perspective:
1. Oddly enough (as noted) the desynch was minimal for me. It did affect only certain people and did seem to be chronic for those people. There was a bit of developed lag and slower frames in real big battles. Not too much worse than seen in similar games (for me anyway).
2. I was a strict archer. I did not take any rep hits. There were several instances that tab would target a party member who was red and several that tab actually went to "white" names. By luck, it is not always easy to tell that you are on a "friendly" by mistake (hard to read small print far back), I was able to notice "wrong target" before I hit them twice. This is not easy as the system keeps a button push far past the end of combat or your pushing it. That is out of synch in some cases. Shots firing off several seconds after there is nothing to hit. To me, this is the greatest problem (even if it did not affect me). The unintentional rep loss.
3. We were in parties. Even to the point of breaking one (smaller) when we had more than 6. I will say that solo, I can get better loot drops, faster. I am not sure the "party loot system" is working. I do not think that we got one T2 recipe despite killing many Risen Heroes and many Champions.
4. The mobs were not too hard to kill with focus. Remember that we had 8 + fairly well geared people though. They were dangerous if ignored. They were VERY dangerous if you had aggro and let them close with you or focus thier fire. I like that well enough. :) I will say that my damage seemed to be less when in a group vs. how it is when I solo these guys. Maybe the system was slow in displaying, or maybe there is some glitch?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A number of quesions:
How was the desynch?
Why were people taking rep hits? Was it a targeting problem, an AoE problem, or people targeting for healing and not retargeting for attacks?
Did you form a party or did you play solo or some mixture?
Did you find any mobs that were very hard to kill?
Desynch only affected a couple of people, and only one of those consistently. Thod, from U.K, running an older machine while his son on their newer machine had no trouble.
I took two large rep hits at different times, and it was never as a follow-up to healing. I believe that while rooted, I simply couldn't see who was targeted. Whether it was auto, or by tab (I do not use my mouse at all, except for incredibly rare times to cast a spell from my alternate row [alt-4] for a minor cure. None of those were related to rep loss.
We were at most times in two parties, with sometimes singles running around until there was an invite. It's possible I was targeting someone in the other party, but have no idea who. I just noticed I was red, and had lost several thousand rep.
When we were at full strength (of two parties that varied between four and six people per), we never had to run away. Individuals sometimes fled, but generally things happened too fast for much of that. There were two mobs that were tough enough that we fought for more than a minute, possibly longer (I'm very careful about estimations. When I say it was a minute plus, I am not prone to overestimating. I'd estimate that I used half-draw a minimum of 30 times, probably over 50, in one of the combats. (typically, once engaged, half draw is the only attack I use, unless I shift to get out very rare interrupts, or to use the mouse to apply a minor cure to myself or a party member.)
I think that allowing more than six people per company would be a large boon. Preferably a lot, but even 8 or 10 would make a big difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Escalations are neat and could make actually great group events after more work on combat in general and escalation specifics.
As a tank a while back I know I had to be prepared for a spike in damage after all the enemies died and I got targeted and focus fired by all the ranged i.e. the entire group.
WE REALLY NEED A TARGET WINDOW SO WE CAN SEE *WHAT* WERE TARGETING FROM MORE THAN A DOZEN FEET AWAY Literally the text is unreadable so we don't know what creature type it is. I also can't see any health or state information on ogres in melee (as a human) because his headband is off my screen out of view, another time a target window would be the only source of useful combat information that is currently completely lacking in every fight. Please don't let absence of a target window be "we're being different from other MMOs" because it's denying combat information in as many cases as not (same for readable numbers too).
--> Is it possible to alter the growth rate of escalations based on their current size?
I'm thinking once it takes root it could quickly jump up to about 30%, slow down a little on it's way to 50% to allow players time to find and scrub it if they want, and post-50% grow to full strength more slowly still. That seems counter intuitive to the momentum of an unchallenged invasion but it would also maybe curb the wall-to-wall 100% escalations we've seen all over after three days because there isn't enough population yet to keep every hex under control every few days. It can obviously be tweaked higher again when the game has greater population density.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Concering Proxima's suggestion, do escalations actually strengthen after 100% is reached? There is that first number (sometimes as high as 50,000). I have read Bob suggesting that you need to get that number down to 500. I am unclear on how that all works.
After a desynch of 20 hexes one day, I did totally kill an ecalation that I ran across (on the way back). It was only (I think) at 5%. I did it solo with one quest finished and just killing mobs. It dropped at a decent rate with each cluster killed. Took .... less than a hour, if I remember right. No Bosses spawned.
Back to my own comments:
I see (from Cal and Mbando's) posts, two common denominators.
1). They were playing clerics.
2). (I may have read this wrong) They were attacking when they couldn't always see what they were targeting. Correct me if this is in error.
This might be why I did not see a rep loss. I tended not to shoot until I could pivot or move to see what I was shooting (not always, but was usual SOP for me). That may be why I feel that the treasure haul was less than when solo. Maybe I was not making as many direct killing blows. Is that a factor in loot drops when parties? I definately felt like I was drawing the attention of many "Heroes" and "Champions". Not all, but definately my share. :)
Even if the "unseen target" attacking is a factor, there has to be a way for the tab system to differentiate hostiles from friendlies. Auto targeting may have been a factor too. There are many great suggestions for possible fixes. I am sure that the whole thing is complicated, but it is pretty important.
As far as I can tell, the end result should be that if you are "non hostile", there should be no way to accidentally target another "non hostile" and so lose Rep. Except perhaps in the case of AoE and splash. That does not appear to be a factor in the case of Mbando or Cal's experiences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was there for both. I felt a bit bad for the people who couldn't get in Mumble with us, much more difficult for them to follow along, and sometimes broke the strategy we were planning but was a lot of fun even then.
Desynch was not a significant problem except for instances mentioned above. One noticeable group wide episode of lag all evening despite group of 12+ and full hex of mobs, lasted duration of only one encounter, and variable effects of people (some reported significant, some just mild stutter).
I've done this sort of mass escalation clear before, and there were surprisingly few drops on this occasion. We were 2 parties of about 6 each most times. Is there still that bug were only 3 of the 6 get drops?
The rep hits were clearly due to AoE attacks. It was almost exclusive to the first session when we had frequent AoE attacks being made, people hit by it and inadvertently targeting the caster and attacking him multiple times. I was healed a lot (thanks all healers!) and never targeted them, and intentionally tested for that. I think that more experience in group play will help with issue, as because I've dealt with it before, I was able to watch for it and avoid any double hits and rep loss, but it takes practice, a willingness to slow down your attacks, and an understanding of how you may accidentally fire off unintentional attacks (as ranged bow attacker, my most common error would be to press button while out of range of target, realise target was "friendly" and then move into range which then allow attack to proceed, rather than stay out of range until attack fails). I don't think not targeting friendlies would correct this problem since the root of it is that the low rep individual attacked a caster multiple times "intentionally" in the view of the game because they took damage from them. AoE would have to be changed to not cause damage to friendlies, which is kind of boring a bit now that i've played that way, or people must not be able to target friendlies even if damaged by them. Which could lead to interesting infiltration strategies of your enemies I suppose.
None of the mobs were hard to kill once focussed. No instances of "invulnerable" mobs. Very dangerous if they focussed one player of course. I started with soldiers chain +3, great sword +3, and longbow +1, finished in Novitiates chain +0, great sword 0, and felt lucky I kept my bow :)
Well worth the fun.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think the problem is multiple parties. I strongly suspect that friendlies not in the same party are in the tab select list. That's somethig I can have the team work on. Once they go red I don't think you take rep hits for hitting a PC so the rep hits are either coming from AoE or from being able to tab into someone you shouldn't.
If that's the issue then two groups operating in close proximity could easily interact badly.
I do think the game is very sensitive to desynch due to client side lag. That's something we probably need to build some specific test tools to nail down. I don't think any of the desynch detection that we are working on went in with Alpha 11. Some server side improvements are in so there is less desynch but when a desynch happens I don't think we're doing much about it yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Daeglin
I am still confused, though. How did people without AoE attacks take rep hits? I can understand the tab targeting them or even auto targeting them after someone AoE's you by mistake. It is a little harder to fathom how people can target "non hostiles" by mistake. I mean, that is how you get a penalty, isn't it? Attacking "non hostiles" twice or killing "non hostiles"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ryan I don't think it was a direct result of 2 parties by itself. I tested tab targeting when Cal went through the process of his rep dropping over the course of 2 or 3 fights. I never had the tab target cycle through anyone other than those who had already hit another player already and lost rep. For some the ability to tab target them faded about 30-60 seconds later, and I assume they only hit someone once, didn't lose rep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Daeglin
I am still confused, though. How did people without AoE attacks take rep hits? I can understand the tab targeting them or even auto targeting them after someone AoE's you by mistake. It is a little harder to fathom how people can target "non hostiles" by mistake. I mean, that is how you get a penalty, isn't it? Attacking "non hostiles" twice or killing "non hostiles"?
The people taking rep hits tended to be people NOT making AoE attacks. They were people who were getting hit by AoE and then either tab targeting OR auto targeting the AoE'er after their first target (real enemy) went down. If they hit the AoE'r once, then they were briefly flagged and were tab targetable by the rest of us for about a minute or less, but I don't THINK auto targettable. If they hit the AoE'r twice they lost rep and eventually got negative rep and tab targetable for longer period. At least that was my sense from watching it go on and tabbing through it. Attacking from range gave me a bit of perspective that people in melee might not have gotten.
Edit: I didn't notice casters making as many line or cone AoE's as we went on further, maybe that helped reduce it later? Or people started holding back before committing to attacks?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps that was the case. If I am reading you right, the AoEer was red, got hit by Cal or Mbando (just examples) and then hit again after the AoEer went back to "white"? You should not lose rep if you return attack vs. someone that has aquired a flag. In that case, the system is not working correctly. Or more clearly, you probably should not go red for attacking a red player. You should probably not go red if you return attacks on an aggressor (even accidental aggression) despite whether they go back to "white" in a few rounds.
Just want to make sure that this is an issue (if it is) and that it gets addressed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the problem is multiple parties. I strongly suspect that friendlies not in the same party are in the tab select list. That's somethig I can have the team work on. Once they go red I don't think you take rep hits for hitting a PC so the rep hits are either coming from AoE or from being able to tab into someone you shouldn't.
I took a 6000 rep hit yesterday when in a two person party killing those red ghoul dog things south of Keepers pass near Pharaos.
Probably would have been more but I suddenly noticed my staff was firing behind me where no escalation monsters could be and stopped casting.
I had only been using Frost Ray (targeted) and Electric Band (streak) and my targets were in front of me so there is no way I got the other player in an AoE.
In this particular party I tend to fight from melee range whereas the other player stands well back so it must be a case of tab targeting selecting them. This has happened before at least twice with this person. My theory is if the OTHER player hits you accidentally with a single AoE just before you tab target a new target they must temporarily be a viable target.
Either that or tab targeting is just broken.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, that sounds likely. Actually, what's even more likely is:
You have no target and a cued attack
You get hit by AoE
You auto target the AoE source
Your cued attack fires
You think you're targeting something else, hit another attack and tag the friendly with the 2nd attack
In my case it has always happened just as my current target dies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, that sounds likely. Actually, what's even more likely is:
You have no target and a cued attack
You get hit by AoE
You auto target the AoE source
Your cued attack fires
You think you're targeting something else, hit another attack and tag the friendly with the 2nd attack
Is that either working-as-intended or working-as-designed, Ryan? If so, I've got more skull-work to do figuring the right way around it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the problem is multiple parties. I strongly suspect that friendlies not in the same party are in the tab select list. That's somethig I can have the team work on. Once they go red I don't think you take rep hits for hitting a PC so the rep hits are either coming from AoE or from being able to tab into someone you shouldn't.
I took a 6000 rep hit yesterday when in a two person party killing those red ghoul dog things south of Keepers pass near Pharaos.
Probably would have been more but I suddenly noticed my staff was firing behind me where no escalation monsters could be and stopped casting.
I had only been using Frost Ray (targeted) and Electric Band (streak) and my targets were in front of me so there is no way I got the other player in an AoE.
In this particular party I tend to fight from melee range whereas the other player stands well back so it must be a case of tab targeting selecting them. This has happened before at least twice with this person. My theory is if the OTHER player hits you accidentally with a single AoE just before you tab target a new target they must temporarily be a viable target.
Correct. Your partner probably hit you first and likely only once. What I wonder is if he may be actually AUTO-targetted, not just tab targeted by you. I'm not sure how auto-target prioritises itself - closeness to you? most recent damage to you? quantity of damage to you? It may depend on your type of attack as well. I don't usually see auto-targeting work when I'm fighting from range for example, seems to work better in melee range. May just be I don't give it time, I do a lot of tabbing.
Edit: lol i took too long reading and writing a response
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fun times!
Right prior to this event I stripped down totally to my skivvies in Alderwag, jogged on over to Rathglen to finally hit
CLERIC LEVEL EIGHT!!!
(personal goal of mine in Alpha, since I wasn't in during the pre 7 days where I hear it was a high level free for all)
Encumbrance patch went in and there was a nudie group hug around the Vault all morning.
The invite said bring your best gear but I didn't want to risk it. Don't know why. So I brought plain old +0 stuff. A divine focus, a staff, and chainmail. Except my Novitiate's Holy Symbol +2 since I wanted to use as many spells as I could. Nothing else though. Brought me about halfway on the bottom encumbrance bar.
I jogged north to Ozem's and about halfway there I fell through the ground-sky and woke back in Rathglen. I shut down for a minute and I was back up North pre-ground-sky right away.
I turned a party of 5 into a party of 6. Fletcher, Daeglin, Lito, Thod and Looper. All great chaps, most ranged fellas. Cal set the pace for both parties on Mumble telling us which direction to stay in to keep it in the hex and coordinating when each combat type should begin.
I decided not to kill anything. I spent my time casting the following spells and orizons:
Agile Feat
Minor Cure
Guidance
Liberation
Battle Rage
Divine Endurance
Aid
Blessing
Endure Elements
Lesser Cure
My strategy was simple; stay near the rooted ranged players. Fortunately my entire party stood together for the most part in the back. We drew aggro a few times and my priority went to the party leader and whoever was standing immediately next to him.
After partying for 2 hours I received the following loot:
Copper Coin (172)
Curio of Defiance (Purple Tier 2)
Fragment of Battle (Green)
Fragment of Learning (Green)
Fragment of Secrets (Green)
Greater Token of Grace
Greter Token of Protection
Intro Holy Symbol
Intro Trophy CHarm
Lesser Token of Awareness (4)
Lesser Token of Curing
Lesser Token of Freedom (4)
Lesser Token of Mind Blanking (4)
Lesser Token of Parrying (8)
Lesser Token of Riposting (2)
Lesser Token of Striking (7)
Recipe: Apprentice's Bloodblock
Recipe: Costume Circlet
Recipe: Stocking Cap
Torn Merchant Clothes (Green Tier 2)
Torn Peasant Clothes (2)
This comes from not killing a single mob myself. My encumbrance was about 90% full when we finished.
Not once did anyone accidentally attack me, though I did fall victim to a little damage from AoE.
I only died once and that was when I decided to switch to a mage staff for giggles on a red Risen Adventurer.
I had fun. Let's go on it again!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Daeglin
I am still confused, though. How did people without AoE attacks take rep hits? I can understand the tab targeting them or even auto targeting them after someone AoE's you by mistake. It is a little harder to fathom how people can target "non hostiles" by mistake. I mean, that is how you get a penalty, isn't it? Attacking "non hostiles" twice or killing "non hostiles"?
The people taking rep hits tended to be people NOT making AoE attacks. They were people who were getting hit by AoE and then either tab targeting OR auto targeting the AoE'er after their first target (real enemy) went down. If they hit the AoE'r once, then they were briefly flagged and were tab targetable by the rest of us for about a minute or less, but I don't THINK auto targettable. If they hit the AoE'r twice they lost rep and eventually got negative rep and tab targetable for longer period. At least that was my sense from watching it go on and tabbing through it. Attacking from range gave me a bit of perspective that people in melee might not have gotten.
Edit: I didn't notice casters making as many line or cone AoE's as we went on further, maybe that helped reduce it later? Or people started holding back before committing to attacks?
It has been my experience that archers will end up targeting another player, who passes across the screen, at the moment the archer's target dies. If you don't notice it, which is hard to do because when fighting escalations players tend to run around in the center of the "fur ball".
@ Ryan
This occurs with same party members as well, and has nothing to do with Aoe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my case it has always happened just as my current target dies.Yeah. So you have no target, and get hit, so you auto target.
Yeah, most probably the hit that killed my target also hit me at the same time :D
In my case the sequence seems to be ...
- spot red nasty in a mob and attack them usually they charge me
- friend also spots red nasty and starts spamming something like wilting surge or electric brand
- As mob charges in I start spamming range attacks
- my friends queued up attack kill target and hit me at same time
- my queued up range attacks (before I have time to switch to melee) plus any further key-presses until i realize what has happen will all target her
Nature of problem: A charging mob will drag AoE ranged attacks towards a friendly, queued attacks hit that friendly. That friendly may then inadvertently tab target you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You think they're clicking the target?
I think they are tabbing or clicking (or combination of both) the target or the mouse cursor for a split second is on the center of the screen as soon as the mob dies, and the PC ends up being a target.
I use the mouse cursor to trigger my feats and the tab to target the next mob. Because it s possible to target someone / thing without it actually being in your view, and the target bar does not appear on your HUD (for target identification), and the warning for having hit a PC is so small and off to the right of the screen, losing rep is often a surprise.
I have been repeating this issue for more than two months, and it is the primary reason I'm most nervous about doing escalations. I would certainly not do an escalation in a group larger than 4-6 and all must be on Team Speak, Vent or Mumble. We also stopped healing during grouped combat for similar reasons, but I'll take your word for it that the targeting due to beneficial affects has been fixed.
Accidental targeting with direct fire, tab targeting, has not been fixed based on the account given above. It is actually more likely because of the rooting of ranged combat that prevents pivoting, so you can see what you are targeting.
Edit: will check later. Does a cursor over + tab, target a mob / PC, without actually double clicking the target?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You think they're clicking the target?I think they are taking the target or the mouse cursor for a split second is on the center of the screen as soon as the mob dies, and the PC ends up being a target.
I use the mouse cursor to trigger my feats and the tab to target the next mob. Because it s possible to target someone / thing without it actually being in your view, and the target bar does not appear on your HUD (for target identification), and the warning for having hit a PC is so small and off to the right of the screen, losing rep is often a surprise.
I never use the mouse in combat so in my case it occurs without clicking anything, just key-presses.
You are definitely totally unaware of it until the other person tells you, or, as in the example above you notice shots/spells going behind you when they should not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I didn't see mentioned yet was Death. Aside from accidentally drilling Cal (for which I didn't take any rep drop), finding the party and the action again after death was painful. While this is far less important than getting the accidental friendly fire worked out, I would like to see some marker on my minimap the shows me where I died.
This will also be important when corpse looting goes in - I can see it being very frustrating not to be able to find your own corpse after dying (PVE or PVP).
Thanks again to Cal and everyone for a great time! I can't wait to clear out one of those escalations!
PS: I was running Lopper :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You think they're clicking the target?I think they are tabbing or clicking (or combination of both) the target or the mouse cursor for a split second is on the center of the screen as soon as the mob dies, and the PC ends up being a target.
The only times I ever click the mouse outside a settlement* is to select the box of a party member I see losing health so I can find them to run up and heal, or to cast my minor cure from slot 4 on my top row, on myself or an ally.
I never, ever use the mouse to select a target for attacks. And I never click the mouse unless I know exactly what result I will be getting. I simply do not trust my co-ordination to rely on the mouse for targeting under pressure, and am too aware of earlier concern about a click on the charm bar passing through to someone behind the bar.
* I sometimes do mouse-look if there's a slope in the way. But that was not involved in any of these incidents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my case it has always happened just as my current target dies.Yeah. So you have no target, and get hit, so you auto target.
Or, you have no nearby target, and hit tab, and it targets a red person behind you instead of a critter that is further away, but visible and because there is mayhem, you start spamming half-draw until you realize you can't see what you're hitting and tab again to select a new target because the one you're shooting at might be dead already or engaged with someone perfectly capable of finishing it or bleeding out* so there's no point wasting shots.
* Or a friendly....
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Goblin Squad Member
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You think they're clicking the target?I think they are tabbing or clicking (or combination of both) the target or the mouse cursor for a split second is on the center of the screen as soon as the mob dies, and the PC ends up being a target.
Nope. I wasn't using my mouse in combat, and when I hit friendlies, I'm confident it was because my target died and I was hitting an attack feat, and auto-target put me on a friendly.
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I hope friendly fire is possible, because AoE in melee of your own group is just a very bad way to play. It also means that if you need to take out a target/targets and they also have your friends in there, well then, what's more important, keeping your friends alive, or keeping the battle in your favor?
That's where moral choices are made. Without negatives, you really can't have positives.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was in a group last monday led by TEO Pino where we were killing the cultists south of Brighthaven, I used some heals on others mid fight without issue a number of times over the course of 2 hours. Now I HAVE taken rep hits before from accidentally hitting a teammate but didn't that time, I also believe nobody lost rep from targeting me though I'm not positive. The most dangerous issue does seem to be the 'lag' between an action being que'ed and it's taking effect. The party system definitely needs work but it is playable if you try to anticipate its qwerks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You think they're clicking the target?I think they are tabbing or clicking (or combination of both) the target or the mouse cursor for a split second is on the center of the screen as soon as the mob dies, and the PC ends up being a target.
I use the mouse cursor to trigger my feats and the tab to target the next mob. Because it s possible to target someone / thing without it actually being in your view, and the target bar does not appear on your HUD (for target identification), and the warning for having hit a PC is so small and off to the right of the screen, losing rep is often a surprise.
I have been repeating this issue for more than two months, and it is the primary reason I'm most nervous about doing escalations. I would certainly not do an escalation in a group larger than 4-6 and all must be on Team Speak, Vent or Mumble. We also stopped healing during grouped combat for similar reasons, but I'll take your word for it that the targeting due to beneficial affects has been fixed.
Accidental targeting with direct fire, tab targeting, has not been fixed based on the account given above. It is actually more likely because of the rooting of ranged combat that prevents pivoting, so you can see what you are targeting.
Edit: will check later. Does a cursor over + tab, target a mob / PC, without actually double clicking the target?
TBH I don't feel its as big an issue its being made out to be. Every time i've been in a group that has run more than once, there is dramatic drop in friendly fire as they learn to work together. I agree a big part of that is communication - being able to organise an attack so that AoE's can go off safely means that you don't have to avoid them altogether. Learning who likes to lead off with cone attacks means that people will start off in a safe location and be less likely to run into field of fire. The melee who are accustomed to whirlwind or cleave learn to stop doing it when others within radius.
I wonder if some of your experience, Bludd, might be from the nature of short bow combat. Its rapid rate of fire makes specific targeting more difficult in a changing battlefield. With longbow, you don't see that since it encourages waiting for stamina to build to maximise exploit or other secondary attacks. Target selection is quite deliberate and you have time to tab around a lot more. I can say that despite many, many group activities, I have never hit anyone twice, and very rarely hit anyone once while using the longbow.
I can confirm the issue of targeting healers in the last patch was not a problem with us at all last night. That was the function I was trying to confirm with all my attention to tab targets that evening.
As you say in your post, the problem mostly comes down to people in the heat of combat, initiating attacks without confirming their target. This is exacerbated by rapid attacks, attacks that have area of effects that people can't visualise accurately, and auto-targeting changing your target when it dies (which can happen a LOT in a group setting). "Queued" attacks are another contributor.
I'm not sure what the best way to address this is. I think if/when line of site gets implemented, some of the events will be eliminated. As experience in group combat increases and people become more familiar with specific attacks will help. Perhaps a temporary ally flag or faction when those mechanisms are in so that people from different settlements can join together and not target each other, but still allow AoE friendly fire damage without targeting afterwards. And potentially turn it off after if they decide to turn on each other to fight over spoils ;)
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I'm confident it was because my target died and I was hitting an attack feat, and auto-target put me on a friendly.
We will check to verify some of the game logic, but assuming the logic is working as intended, then you should only auto-target a "friendly" if that character hits you with a non-beneficial effect.
I can't see a good way out of that box. We want you to auto target when someone hits you and you have no target. The fact that the attacker is a PC should not matter - PvP will be a common event.
If your friendly is hitting you with AoE, we can't tell the difference between someone not paying attention, someone being a jerk, and someone actually trying to kill your PC.
I guess we could install a "never auto target PCs" option, but that leaves you wide open to PvP strikes. (and all those kinds of switches put molasses into the combat resolution system so I hestiate to say even that could be done without the cure being wors than the disease.)
I'm increasingly inclined (so inclined I'm writing an email about this in parallel) to see if we can get rid of the queue. A big part of this is due to queued attacks interacting with auto target I think.
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I think qued attacks is the bane of smart gaming. If you are going to que attacks, and knowing that it is possible your target could drop before the next attack goes off but BEFORE you target another monster, then you must accept the system will adapt as designed.
I don't think any kind of target prevention should occur. Realistically you can't aim and shoot a bow or a spell before you target, even swinging a sword requires some thought; but the game makes it possible. So if some player wants to use that, they accept the risks that come with it. That's part of being responsible. If you got an itchy trigger finger, better learn how to manage it.
I do agree allowing the que is the problem. Remove the que, and the problem goes away. Or at least the problem of having qued attacks on players going off. Bad targeting issues will still happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope friendly fire is possible, because AoE in melee of your own group is just a very bad way to play. It also means that if you need to take out a target/targets and they also have your friends in there, well then, what's more important, keeping your friends alive, or keeping the battle in your favor?
That's where moral choices are made. Without negatives, you really can't have positives.
Hi Probitas, you're missing the point of the conversation. The problem isn't AoE--that's working as intended. It's single target spells (likely queued) that are the problem.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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You think they're clicking the target?I think they are tabbing or clicking (or combination of both) the target or the mouse cursor for a split second is on the center of the screen as soon as the mob dies, and the PC ends up being a target.
I don't think that's the problem. You should not be able to tab into a white PC without using a key modifier (I think its ctrl-tab but don't quote me). What I think may be happening is that the player is generating a click without meaning to. The game right now is set to let you target anything you can see and that is new maybe as of Alpha 10. In the past it was really hard to click target someone, and now it's much easier. Accidentally clicking could have become much more common. Also the mouse clicks penetrate the UI so if you're clicking on the action bar, and due to camera position there's a target behind that icon, you could very easily be click targeting. That could happen for example running up or down a hill. The penetration of clicks is a known bug.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The problem isn't AoE--that's working as intended. It's single target spells (likely queued) that are the problem.
If you are auto targeting someone who didn't hit you with AoE it means they hit you with a targetted effect that was not Beneficial. In other words, they "deliberately" attacked you.
I could see this sequence:
1: AoE hits you
2: You autotarget AoE source, and a queued attack hits the source
3: The source then autotargets you
4: AoE source's next attack goes off, hits you, Source goes Red
5: One more attack against source and you're both red